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posted on Nov, 21 2004 @ 11:11 PM
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buddhism talks alot about rebirth, how one conciounsness migrates from one body to the next. but they never seems to talk about how did conciousness came about in the first place. i read a considerable article and teaching but none of them pick up this topic. so what's you guys take on this?




posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 12:33 PM
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What I don't understand about Buddhism is this;

If we are all the product of reincarnation, how do new souls come about?

While it is true that many species of animal on Earth are or have become extinct, populations of a variety of species on Earth are rising. Where do these new souls originate from? How does it work? Who controls the breeding of new souls?



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
What I don't understand about Buddhism is this;

If we are all the product of reincarnation, how do new souls come about?

While it is true that many species of animal on Earth are or have become extinct, populations of a variety of species on Earth are rising. Where do these new souls originate from? How does it work? Who controls the breeding of new souls?


You are assuming that there is such a thing as a soul and possibly that a soul equates to consciousnes. Perhaps consciousness is merely the actions of an active brain. Sometimes I get the impression that the concept of a soul was made up because of the fear of death. Who knows?



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 01:07 PM
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Interesting question. I keep coming back to the notion that the conscious always is and has been and will be. I little hard to wrap your head around at first, I suppose.
Good point, too, about new souls. Could it be that the souls aren't just from Earth? Could they be moving through the entire Universe and we just have more than our "fair share" right now? It was a slow day until now. Time to wrack the brain a little...



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 01:49 PM
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I enjoy posts like these.

The origin of consciousness is a well asked question. It shows quality of human thought, and glorifies the Heavens from which we came.

The proper question is: Did intelligence arise from matter, or did matter arise from intelligence? Let us look at the universe and see. Many people think that the 2nd law of thermodynamics dictates that everything tears itself apart to its lowest energy level given enough time. In reality, the universe does not do this.

Upon observation, the universe tends to gather itself into very regular forms and systems. The chemical and biological formations of life seem to be the inevitable result of water and energy. In other words, they gather themselves out of chaos. Just like God was said to do by the ancients.

The study of the origin of life is truly the study of the origin of God. Life has arisen on many other worlds in this universe. Intelligence, therefore, is a universal phenomenon. God therefore, is a universal force.

It is not yet revealed to us, but we will shortly find - Intelligence follows a common form and is common throughout the universe. Its ultimate origin is not visible to me yet, but It is God. That mystery is not yet revealed.

Life was present on mars in the same form that it was on the earth. We will find the fossils of this life and it will open our minds to this universe life constant in a little while. Just like planets form the same way, and stars, and seas, and all the other compounds, life follows this pattern. Entropy is much misused concept, because it has blinded us to potential for life everywhere.

Souls have a remarkable similarity throughout the generations. Reincarnation is an interpretation of this phenomenon - there seems to be certain "types' of intelligences that repeat themselves over and over again on this world. We see the same personality types and forms arising in people born in each generation. This can be seen as a kind of reincarnation.

Ancients studied the various levels of spirit, and concluded that these repeat manifestations of intelligence were the intelligences of those who could not advance past this world and its material, and kept getting reformed and reborn. I accept this as a valid interpretation of the phenomenon of what we see.

The mind of the creator seems to be to provide a path for intelligence to follow so that it ascends UP through the material universe to progressively higher levels of energy and matter. This universe seems to be a garden for growing INTELLIGENCE and the biological systems that support organic forms of life. That's why stars are built, and why planets are built, and the general purpose of the material universe.

There are other "gods" who exist on the lower material levels who think they are the almighty. That is the beginning of gnostic thought, and the ability to see the whole. They get angry if you try to exceed them and return to the wholeness of Intelligence, which is the True God.

The entire universe is not difficult to perceive, it is a very regular and repetitive pattern. Stars are stars everywhere, some bright some dim, and most of them have the same kind of planetary systems. Life exists everywhere. Intelligence on one world is the same as another, because intelligence is not rooted in MATTER. It is not limited to one world, or it SHOULD NOT be. In fact it is not, but there are various powers that desire to keep it limited in awareness and ability. You can't be the ruler if everything is free.

Getting free is simply a matter of becoming aware of the totality. Once you attain this, you can no longer be ruled. It's the same in small tyrannies on the earth as in life, or in the greater systems of gods and powers that govern the various realms of this world. They didn't create intelligence, but they want to rule it as though they did. They are the cause of reincarnation, because they prevent the passage of souls into higher realms of intelligence. In order to sustain their dominion, they must keep the intelligence of mankind limited to a certain form, which can be ruled by their forces. If they exceed them, they become superior and cannot be limited by their forces. That is the process of ascension.

That is where the Buddhas went, and why they encountered resistance from strange forces. These forces were the forces that emanated from these petty rulers, and attempt to keep all of mankind under their tyranny.

That is the explanation of reincarnation. It is a real phenomenon. It is a prison system for a slave world. It is not the proper order of life, nor is it the intention of the Whole, because it steals the potential of life and forces it to serve selfish, jealous powers who have come into being as a result of matter, themselves created by the Great God. Call them what you will, but they are not worthy of your worship or service. They are nothing but thieves and liars.

Arkaleus



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 03:51 PM
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that's a very radical idea you got there arkaleus. who are these acients you say to be? and did you base your post on various religions?



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 05:25 PM
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It may be new to you. It actually comes from the Early Christian Gnostics. They had illuminated themselves fairly well on the cosmos, and then were dispersed by the forces of the Roman Church.

We have only now rediscovered their wisdom, and it is developing in me.

My primary premise is that life must necessarily resemble that from which it arose from. As our knowledge has increased in the universe, we have put aside the old premise that life is somehow odd or unique, but actually is widespread and common. Simply put, the material universe tends to ORGANIZE, rather than disorganize. That is a 180 degree turn in western cosmology.

My ideas aren't new - they' ve just been literally buried for a thousand years. I am just synthesizing a new awareness from this ancient knowledge with our modern advantage of knowing ALL of the world's traditions and languages, and putting into our own modern language.

That's why it's so novel to you. I get that response a lot. It's something you haven't heard before, but it zings you like something true. That's because it is. True Gnosis is universal, and common to every tradition. Logically, all wise persons should be seeing the same thing. If a single truth exists, then it would be observed the same by different observers. At the higher levels of thought, this is the case. This is a good proof for the unity of God, or as some might say "Consciousness."

There are actually a lot of old writings about this subject. We in America don't learn about them in school. Very few Americans know about them, and very few in the Western world do. If you want to learn more about it, then I suggest that you look at the book "Thrice Greatest Hermes" or get the "Gnostic Bible" Don't read the Nag Hammadi Collection. They are raw translations and almost incomprehensible.

I believe I am the first person to write about the connection between reincarnation and the Gnostic Cosmos. It just that I kept seeing the same patterns in people's intellect. The same statements, the same intellectual attributes and statements, over many generations of text. I also noticed that it was more common in less-developed people. Those did not possess gnosis, or pursue any kind of spiritual knowledge, were more often to REPEAT the same intellectual forms as their ancestors, even in how they related to spiritual matters.

I began to see a pattern emerge with the Eastern concept of reincarnation, and the type of spiritual bondage that occurs under the Gnostic concept of how this world is ruled by the powers of the material gods. I was then able to draw the connection between Hindu Cosmology and the Gnostics, and realized that they were describing the same events.

As it began to form in my mind, I understood that the cycle of soul development was a multi-tiered system of ascension and progression, with the lower regions ruled by powers that because of their ignorance tried to make them closed systems of tyranny.

Those souls caught in these lower spheres were doomed to the material universe, to appear time and time again in the forms of matter, appearing in the minds of some newly born people. I concluded that this process of reincarnation was not entirely a natural or benign process, and that it was actually a parasitic action. They would force their imprints on the newborns, thereby achieving a new kind of birth.

That's how the lower forms of mind come into being. The greater minds, Sages, and Buddhas, and Christs - are more universally written about and better understood. In fact, it is useful to the truth seeker to approach Christ from a Hindu perspective - it allows for the explanation of avatars of the higher Mind, which is how Gnostics described Jesus. They believe that Jesus was actually an Avatar of Christ, and that Christ was a emanation from the God of Intellect or Father.

Higher beings and Spiritual people were identified by the Gnostics as coming from higher places, their souls or consciousness were sparks from the Father, who came into the material universe to gain greater forms.

If you are searching for the origin of Consciousness, then look there. I am with you in your search.

Arkaleus


[Edited for additional content and spelling on 22-11-2004 by Arkaleus]


[Edited on 22-11-2004 by Arkaleus]



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 07:50 PM
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thank you ark. i have actually researched in this matter since last year. i saw a tv show on the history channel about how alot of the radical books were excluded from the bible. i thought it was interesting so i looked deeper into the hidden christian writings, which essentially was the gnostics. i find their teaching to be true to the words actually said by jesus himself and not the hypocritical conservative "christians" we have now that oppose anything and everything that is spankin new

another question, suppose that i want to ascend and achieve another level of existence, what do i need to do? i realize that there is a buddhist way where you must meditate to empty your mind of all thoughts in order to attain enlightenment. what is the gnostic counter part?

[Edited on 22-11-2004 by 2009]



posted on Nov, 22 2004 @ 10:49 PM
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Evangelical "Christians" are a rather new group to emerge. They are a remarkably ignorant bunch, given the amount of learning available to the world in this day and age.

Gnosticism went underground for a very long time. All it really is to be gnostic means to "know the truth of things." There is actually a wonderful and very real spiritual power you gain when your mind is filled with understanding. Once you cut loose the lies and the illusions that modern religions have created, you can find God. God is quite independent of religion, the religions that exist on this earth are the construcitons of men, all of them. Spirit is not inherited to successors - it goes back to heaven with them that it came with. That a church can exist beyond the lives of its founders is a curiosity.

This is the strength of Gnosis: It develops the INDIVIDUAL into a divine being, he becomes his own temple, and needs nothing outside of himself, except knowledge, which becomes his food.

Get started with the Gnostic Bible. It will refresh your mind from the chains of modern christianity, and free your soul. You will find that Christ means Liberty, not shame and laws. When your mind opens, you will become aware of the world and how it treats those born into it. It's a scary path to knowledge!

Arkaleus

[Edited on 22-11-2004 by Arkaleus]



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 05:36 AM
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What a great post you have made Arkaleus.
My wife has just started her Ascension to God (oneness) and she tells me currently the earth vibrations and energies are changing so rapidily and are causing dis EASE in various forms amongst the population. She tells me by 2012 if we the world do not ascend most will perish. Her base for 2012 is the presence of Peace on Earth - Unconditional love - Christed Beings - some may think its the anti christ.

Any thoughts?



Originally posted by Arkaleus
I enjoy posts like these.

The origin of consciousness is a well asked question. It shows quality of human thought, and glorifies the Heavens from which we came.

The proper question is: Did intelligence arise from matter, or did matter arise from intelligence? Let us look at the universe and see. Many people think that the 2nd law of thermodynamics dictates that everything tears itself apart to its lowest energy level given enough time. In reality, the universe does not do this.

Upon observation, the universe tends to gather itself into very regular forms and systems. The chemical and biological formations of life seem to be the inevitable result of water and energy. In other words, they gather themselves out of chaos. Just like God was said to do by the ancients.

The study of the origin of life is truly the study of the origin of God. Life has arisen on many other worlds in this universe. Intelligence, therefore, is a universal phenomenon. God therefore, is a universal force.

It is not yet revealed to us, but we will shortly find - Intelligence follows a common form and is common throughout the universe. Its ultimate origin is not visible to me yet, but It is God. That mystery is not yet revealed.

Life was present on mars in the same form that it was on the earth. We will find the fossils of this life and it will open our minds to this universe life constant in a little while. Just like planets form the same way, and stars, and seas, and all the other compounds, life follows this pattern. Entropy is much misused concept, because it has blinded us to potential for life everywhere.

Souls have a remarkable similarity throughout the generations. Reincarnation is an interpretation of this phenomenon - there seems to be certain "types' of intelligences that repeat themselves over and over again on this world. We see the same personality types and forms arising in people born in each generation. This can be seen as a kind of reincarnation.

Ancients studied the various levels of spirit, and concluded that these repeat manifestations of intelligence were the intelligences of those who could not advance past this world and its material, and kept getting reformed and reborn. I accept this as a valid interpretation of the phenomenon of what we see.

The mind of the creator seems to be to provide a path for intelligence to follow so that it ascends UP through the material universe to progressively higher levels of energy and matter. This universe seems to be a garden for growing INTELLIGENCE and the biological systems that support organic forms of life. That's why stars are built, and why planets are built, and the general purpose of the material universe.

There are other "gods" who exist on the lower material levels who think they are the almighty. That is the beginning of gnostic thought, and the ability to see the whole. They get angry if you try to exceed them and return to the wholeness of Intelligence, which is the True God.

The entire universe is not difficult to perceive, it is a very regular and repetitive pattern. Stars are stars everywhere, some bright some dim, and most of them have the same kind of planetary systems. Life exists everywhere. Intelligence on one world is the same as another, because intelligence is not rooted in MATTER. It is not limited to one world, or it SHOULD NOT be. In fact it is not, but there are various powers that desire to keep it limited in awareness and ability. You can't be the ruler if everything is free.

Getting free is simply a matter of becoming aware of the totality. Once you attain this, you can no longer be ruled. It's the same in small tyrannies on the earth as in life, or in the greater systems of gods and powers that govern the various realms of this world. They didn't create intelligence, but they want to rule it as though they did. They are the cause of reincarnation, because they prevent the passage of souls into higher realms of intelligence. In order to sustain their dominion, they must keep the intelligence of mankind limited to a certain form, which can be ruled by their forces. If they exceed them, they become superior and cannot be limited by their forces. That is the process of ascension.

That is where the Buddhas went, and why they encountered resistance from strange forces. These forces were the forces that emanated from these petty rulers, and attempt to keep all of mankind under their tyranny.

That is the explanation of reincarnation. It is a real phenomenon. It is a prison system for a slave world. It is not the proper order of life, nor is it the intention of the Whole, because it steals the potential of life and forces it to serve selfish, jealous powers who have come into being as a result of matter, themselves created by the Great God. Call them what you will, but they are not worthy of your worship or service. They are nothing but thieves and liars.

Arkaleus



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 07:15 AM
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Originally posted by Simon_the_byron
What I don't understand about Buddhism is this;

If we are all the product of reincarnation, how do new souls come about?

While it is true that many species of animal on Earth are or have become extinct, populations of a variety of species on Earth are rising. Where do these new souls originate from? How does it work? Who controls the breeding of new souls?


Souls are a possibility, consciousness is a fact, and consciousness may manifest itself in many ways. We probably will never be able to know exactly how it works.

Good point on the increase of life though. Reincarnation of individual souls is highly unlikely due to that fact. Unless we are not the only "souls" in the universe.



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by 2009
buddhism talks alot about rebirth, how one conciounsness migrates from one body to the next. but they never seems to talk about how did conciousness came about in the first place. i read a considerable article and teaching but none of them pick up this topic. so what's you guys take on this?


I suppose it really depends on the buddhist traditions you are studying.

From the teachings of the Dalai Lama:


Q: You have said that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no Creator, no God of creation, and this may initially put off many people who believe in a divine principle. Can you explain the difference between the Vajrayana Primordial Buddha and a Creator God?

A: I understand the Primordial Buddha, also known as Buddha Samantabhadra, to be the ultimate reality, the realm of the Dharmakaya-- the space of emptiness--where all phenomena, pure and impure, are dissolved. This is the explanation taught by the Sutras and Tantras. However, in the context of your question, the tantric tradition is the only one which explains the Dharmakaya in terms of Inherent clear light, the essential nature of the mind; this would seem imply that all phenomena, samsara and nirvana, arise from this clear and luminous source. Even the New School of Translation came to the conclusion that the "state of rest" of a practitioner of the Great Yoga--Great Yoga implies here the state of the practitioner who has reached a stage in meditation where the most subtle experience of clear light has been realized--that for as long as the practitioner remains in this ultimate sphere he or she remains totally free of any sort of veil obscuring the mind, and is immersed in a state of great bliss.

We can say, therefore, that this ultimate source, clear light, is close to the notion of a Creator, since all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana, originate therein. But we must be careful in speaking of this source, we must not be led into error. I do not mean chat there exists somewhere, there, a sort of collective clear light, analogous to the non-Buddhist concept of Brahma as a substratum. We must not be inclined to deify this luminous space. We must understand that when we speak of ultimate or inherent clear light, we are speaking on an individual level.

Likewise, when we speak of karma as the cause of the universe we eliminate the notion of a unique entity called karma existing totally independently. Rather, collective karmic impressions, accumulated individually, are at the origin of the creation of a world. When, in the tantric context, we say that all worlds appear out of clear light, we do not visualize this source as a unique entity, but as the ultimate clear light of each being. We can also, on the basis of its pure essence, understand this clear light to be the Primordial Buddha. All the stages which make up the life of each living being--death, the intermediate state, and rebirth--represent nothing more than the various manifestations of the potential of clear light. It is both the most subtle consciousness and energy. The more clear light loses its subtlety, the more your experiences take shape.

In this way, death and the intermediate state are moments where the gross manifestations emanating from clear light are reabsorbed. At death we return to that original source, and from there a slightly more gross state emerges to form the intermediate state preceding rebirth. At the stage of rebirth, clear light is apparent in a physical incarnation. At death we return to this source. And so on. The ability to recognize subtle clear light, also called the Primordial Buddha, is equivalent to realizing nirvana, whereas ignorance of the nature of clear light leaves us to wander in the different realms of samsaric existence.

This is how I understand the concept of the Primordial Buddha. It would be a grave error to conceive of it as an independent and autonomous existence from beginningless time. If we had to accept the idea of an independent creator, the explanations given in the Pramanavartika, the "Compendium of Valid Knowledge" written by Dharmakirti, and in the ninth chapter of the text by Shantideva, which completely refutes the existence per se of all phenomena, would be negated. This, in turn, would refute the notion of the Primordial Buddha. The Buddhist point of view does not accept the validity of affirmations which do not stand up to logical examination. If a sutra describes the Primordial Buddha as an autonomous entity, we must be able to interpret this assertion without taking it literally. We call this type of sutra an "interpretable" sutra.


Q: Is there a primordial cause for all causes?

A: No. Generally, causes have no origin, and for this reason effects have none either. We can nevertheless say, in the context of a very specific point, that in some cases causes and effects have a beginning. When we establish that the continuum of the mind is without beginning, to want t o discern a beginning to causes would be an obvious contradiction! You know, Buddhist logicians are quite rigorous. From the moment they accept that the mind has no beginning they can affirm logically and resolutely that neither causes nor effects have one either.




[Edited on 23-11-2004 by Raphael_UO]



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 05:38 PM
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This forum should be for original ideas. Raph, you do this all the time. Can't you think on your own?

Demonstrate some knowledge and understanding, and quit posting other people's words in your posts.

Ark



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 05:52 PM
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Your wife sounds like she has some interest in the occult and in the "world changes" that many have spoken about in 2012.

2012 is just the end date of the Mayan calender. Maybe it's more than that. I believe in long cycles of destruction to, for good reason. Maybe that's what she's sensing.

As for ascend or perish - most of humankind lives in a semi-animal state. Their minds are not fit for an enternal existence. It would be a cosmic punishment to make an evil man live forever. It would be a great evil to allow degraded animal minds to exist as human beings, therefore it is right they should die in the cleasing hour of this era.

Ascension is possible, but Americans have many obstacles in the way of getting the necessary teaching. Your friends, family, and neighbors will suddenly turn hostile to you if you desire to seek enlightenment. To do so in this culture is to break ranks like THX1138 or Logan 7, or Neo! But that is exactly what you must do, otherwise you are trapped in the collective forever.

This culture has been overtaken by the collective. It's now an illusion only! The principals we were founded on no longer have a place in the hearts and minds of the people - most don't understand them, or lack the fundamental intellect required to comprehend - let alone praise and implement - them.

We have an international system of slavery emerging to trap the whole of mankind in a nightmare of orwellian proportions! Its great deception is by the material surplus of luxury - we have so many goods and toys that we forget that we are slaves, bound, and have no civil auhtority anymore. Power is given to us from on high, hidden from our interference, we are unable to give input to it, unable to overpower it, unable to get away from it. it is everywhere, and becoming all powerful. It is displacing God and putting itself in its place.

Human Consciousness cannot survive under such degrading conditions - it rebels and struggles. Their war is against the human spirit, they desire to control not only our physical lives, but how our minds think. To make everyone a part of the system is their aim. They are winning. The lower and middle classes are to become cattle, marked and controlled by overseerers and policemen. They will be required to obey every law, and there will be many laws. They will have no ability to change anything in their status, their power of citizenship will be stolen and forever lost to the collective and the Federal authority. All states will serve the Federal power, as the Federal pwoer has overthrown the states and become their ruler.

Their will is for total control over the world, to place it all under their system of rule and production. Mankind will enter a spiritual dark age unlike any seen since the dawn of our species. Free thought and expression will be forced into poverty and prostitution, and will live only in small places and in rare people.

That is the reality my generation will face. I am the last generation of free men in America, after my childhood was over, all the schools became overtaken by the women and their destruction of the american males. This nation has destroyed its sons, and turned them into ignorant beasts.

The ascension you seek is coming, it will only be for a few. It is a spirit that is going among us, choosing a few of us, and awakening us. Our spirits will escape this prison world and enter into better places. The rest of this place will be destroyed.

Arky



posted on Nov, 23 2004 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by Arkaleus
This forum should be for original ideas. Raph, you do this all the time. Can't you think on your own?

Demonstrate some knowledge and understanding, and quit posting other people's words in your posts.

Ark


Arkaleus,

2009 said that the buddhist articles he had read did not address the origins of consciousness. Some buddhist traditions do not directly address the issue, others do. I gave him an example of a buddhist addressing the issue. There is enough information given in those quotes for him to research the buddhist perspective through the internet if he desires.

Otherwise, there is no need for me to post in this thread.

Take Care



posted on Nov, 24 2004 @ 06:10 AM
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That is the reality my generation will face. I am the last generation of free men in America, after my childhood was over, all the schools became overtaken by the women and their destruction of the american males. This nation has destroyed its sons, and turned them into ignorant beasts


Arkaleus
Thanks so much for your comments they are so appreciated during this time for me.
This statement above struck me as my wife talks so much about the "divine feminine" aspect and its emergence into the earth energies recently. THis area kind of got the ball rowling on her ascension path.

What has happened to the world is that the divine male has devastated and almost destroyed the planet .. Its time for balance between both the male and the female for things to survive. She got me sold on that onel.

I am not convinced on the women taken over schools and destroying the male identity, or that America is turning its sons into ignorant beasts. These women are charging back thats my gut feel on it..

The USA I feel holds a special light and has many great people as too my country Australia. I do see the worst of the worst in America getting more out of control as the years go by but there is hope if we change and that can happen.

This is a website of a member of my wife new "soul family" - I would be interested and honoured to get a brief take on something like this.
www.zakairan.com...

Regards
Mark



posted on Nov, 25 2004 @ 03:00 AM
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I don't have much to day about that.

Sexual magic is foreign to me.

Many people seem to think that it is somehow divine. I come from a different school.

If such an arrangement be the bringer of enlightenment, then show its fruits please. Let me taste them.

If wisdom be created by the combination of male-female, then speak it, that I might hear it.





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