thoughts on bible code.

to start, I've been reading about the bible code theories recently (as well as the few old threads about it here) and i have some questions on my mind.

1. The main argument seems to be that you can find codes in any book if you look hard enough (i know specifically of examples from War and Peace). I like to think that God is in everything etc. so how does code showing up in places other than the bible hurt the coded message theory? (I know the Bible, and the Torah specifically are supposed to be the word of God, straight from his mouth to moses, but still). Does finding codes in other 'inspired' works damage this theory? Perhaps if the bible is coded by God's mind, every author unconsciously codes his work with his own mind (ie, you can see the thoughts of the mind, beyond the words)?

2. A second argument seems to come from the existance of 'negative codes' (god is dead, jesus is satan, etc.) that can be found in the bible using the code. To me, this is the harder argument to put down.
According to those who believe in the code, the entire universe, all that was, is and will be, is encoded in just the torah alone.
To me, God simply is. Our concept of God is human by necessity (we're humans after all.) Statements like 'god is dead' or 'there is no god' are human ways of describing the All. They are as inaccurate as 'god is in heaven' or 'god created the earth.' God is the earth, God is heaven, God is the concept of No-god.
Ok.. sorry for the rant. My point is, Everything is supposed to be in the code. And Everything, by it's very nature is contradictory within itself. So if you find 'God is dead', that's just what you're looking for. (to me, the fact that you found anything at all (ie. you exist, the bible exists, the code exists) is proof of God (dead or not)).

Now.
The biggest question i have is, what good does knowing the bible code serve? What is it's purpose.
What good does it do us to find info about 9/11 (for example) all over the bible after the fact.
Can it be used for prophecy or guidance? If so, what good does it do to find info about the 'coming endtimes'??
Why aren't people looking for ways to prevent the 'endtimes'?? Is no one interested in stopping this? Believers seem to think they are 'on the right side' so although the 'endtimes' will suck, they'll be ok. What kind of attitude is that?
I am almost convinced that Prophecies of Endtimes (book of rev., etc.) are magical spells* designed to lure people into believing in 'endtimes' until that belief becomes 'reality'.

*only words i have to describe it

Anyway, I seem to have lost my point somewhere after the first sentence so sorry about that.

By the way, I'm having a new year's party on Jan 1st, 2013. Anyone who wants to come is welcome... (yes, even you, antichrist) Free food, free beer, good times...
If you're interested RSVP by dec 21st 2012 and please let me know if you're bringing a huge comet w/ you, or not.

I think, quango, that much of the smoke can be dissipated if we turn away from any particular text and focus upon the word "code" itself - what are the distinguishing properties and features of codes; how are codes used;why are codes used; what characterises a successful code.
I fancy we shall then find that the great bulk of drivel about the Torah and other books -largely inaccessible linguistically to those who succumb to drivel - becomes no more than a misuse of words.

The Bible code is the fakest thing about the Bible. The Bible of today isn't even the same original Scriptures so why should I believe in such a Bible code?

Illmatic67 most of the code makers use the Hebrew Text used by the Hasidic Jews which is as close to the original as anything around. (The Hasidic Jews still do Temple the same as it was done 2000 years ago). However most Jewish and Christian scholars have labeled these "Bible codes" as interesting bunk. People been finding codes in the Bible for quite soom time now.

Do a google search for "Ivan Panin". Panin was born in 1855 and did a lot of work on Bible codes - most of which has been debunked.

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by jagdflieger]

If it was real, we'd have some sort of pattern to predict future events. Instead, you have to wait till after the event and then go find some codes. You can do that with Moby Dick.

In fact, I would imagine that each of our names shows up in the Bible codes as does things in our lives.

It's simply a lot of text and a lot of letters and if you arrange them and use very large letter leaps, you can find just about any meaning you like.

Heck, there's stuff about Elvis in there.

Originally posted by Byrd
If it was real, we'd have some sort of pattern to predict future events. Instead, you have to wait till after the event and then go find some codes. You can do that with Moby Dick.
.

I guess what i'm asking is, can it be used to predict?

I mean, was anybody searching the World Trade Centers before 9/11?? If so, would they have even found these things which afterward are so 'apparent'?

Obviously in hindsight it's easy to find things and it's easy to say it's coincidence or whatever... but if there's truth to it and yet still nothing to be done about it until after the fact... that's just frustrating.

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by quango]

It's not just frustrating, it's pointless. Thats why it doesn't hold much interest for me. People look for such things in part as a warning, which you won't get before the event and is pointless afterwards.
The other reason is that some people need reassurance of the existence of God, and in the validity of their beliefs. Beliving that all major events are in code in the Bible gives a degree of comfort.

If someone knows of anything that the Bible code has predicted that hasn't happened yet I'd be very interested to hear it because I suppose a part of me wants it to be true too.

Originally posted by kegs

If someone knows of anything that the Bible code has predicted that hasn't happened yet I'd be very interested to hear it because I suppose a part of me wants it to be true too.

Well, there are websites all over now with the 2012 mayan 'endoftheworld' being shown in biblecode. Comets and what not..

But as far as that goes, we'll have to wait until 2013 to see if it comes true.

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by quango]

The only reason i'm stuck wondering about this right now is because my God is all-powerful and so he could darn well put a code in the bible if he felt like it. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the bible is of God per se. It just means He knew that's where people would look.

Originally posted by Estragon
I think, quango, that much of the smoke can be dissipated if we turn away from any particular text and focus upon the word "code" itself - what are the distinguishing properties and features of codes; how are codes used;why are codes used; what characterises a successful code.

I was curious. You can ignore this if you want.
I looked up the word 'code'. It comes from an OldFrench word that meant "a written law" or "book of laws".
The term 'secret code' arose in the early 1800's. Looking up 'secret' gives us a Latin root that meant "set apart, hidden"
So.... a hidden law or laws.

and Law, from Old English for "layer" or "something laid down or fixed"

'to fix' is from Latin "to attach"


So we have a hidden layer, attached to (presumably) the top layer - the stories themselves..
A hidden layer governed by laws.
A code.

so basically, code=code. Pretty impressive, huh?
Sorry. This was pointless but it was fun searching.

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by quango]

Originally posted by Illmatic67
The Bible code is the fakest thing about the Bible. The Bible of today isn't even the same original Scriptures so why should I believe in such a Bible code?

They used the orginial Hebrew writings illmatic. I think I saw this book once in the book store. The hebrew alphabet is also there number system. Since I don't know hebreww there is no why for me to know if what they say is right or wrong. Come on illmatic don't be so closed minded

No, no, my dear Quango, I'm not talking about etymology.
I am sayin that one needs to look at how real codes are used by real people in real circumstances.
As a simple model, a code is a mechanism for disguising a unique utterance in one language "the Koreans are coming" and for ensuring that a second person can recover that unique utterance.
In short: source-language is also target-language and the code is only useful if both participants know this language. Furthermore the code must yield only the single unique utterance, not a vast range of possible utterances.
We may cite facts that show that this simple model is made much more complex by technology but the main points remain the same.
In short, if there were a "Bible Code" it would be a set of rules that yielded one and only one decryption of any utterance, and only in the original language. Codes do not "reveal" things they merely hide and then uncover what was known, at least to the sender.

[Edited on 23-5-2003 by Estragon]

sure sure... but couldn't a true bible code exist. A single True Code. Both most people (or all people) are using the wrong decoder ring and so they get the wrong results. And when these wrong results are put alongside the correct results, would not all of the results together appear contradictory? even though one set of results (but which one is the question) is actually right?

of the Bible, couldn't even agree on how many times Jesus went to Jerusalem, let alone a complex code...

One thing all atheists, almost all Christians, almost all Jews, and almost all Muslims can agree on. Bible codes are pure bunk. Just seach the web for "bible codes" and you will find a slew of sites which debunk these codes. However, if you have 39.95 you can buy the "BIBLE CODES 2000" software from www.bibledecoder.com... and set up your own prophecy shop (now let's see maybe 19.95 to find someones name "encoded" in the Bible). Somewhere you can probably find software for the Koran. I am waiting the the software version that will find codes in the Kama Sutra and back issues of Hustler.

[Edited on 24-5-2003 by jagdflieger]

I remember reading an article by somone who was debunking the author of the Bible code. He used the same process that the author used on the Bible but applied it to the Book written about the code. Interesting was that one of the so called hidden messages was that the bible code was evil.

There was a time I was interested in reading this book. But, in light of the above comment, I shall now leave that book for a day that I have nothing better to do.
I load of BS as far as I'm concerned.

Likened to the charater in the movie a beutiful mind is this author.

They might use the Original Writings in Hebrew but nevertheless, it's still fake.