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Xcathdra
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
reply to post by Xcathdra
i realise there needs to be an investigation.....bit i still cannot understand why the old man needed to be manhandled...by two officers..........would a 12 year old child need the same treatment?...regardless of him being belligerent(if he was we dont know) they are grown men and should be able to exercise restraint
Did the officers know the person age at the time of encounter?
This is an example of what im talking about when I say totality of circumstances and hindsight 20/20 not being allowed to be used to review actions.
Age is not a relevant factor to consider since the age was not established until after the fact.
Being deaf is not a relevant factor to consider since it was not known until after the fact.
To answer your question though yes, I have seen people take on several officers. To assume a person is not dangerous based on their age or appearance leads to complacency and can lead to an officer not going home at the end of the night. I would rather go hands on with a 6'3 250 pound body builder than go hands on with a 25 year old female who weighs 110 pounds.
The mindset of guys being more dangerous than women is also one of those preconceptions that can get an officer killed.
Does the use of force need to be reviewed? Absolutely.
However it needs to be reviewed by using proper procedure and not what other people think should be considered, like age or disabilities. We only know this guys age and disability "after" the fact.
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
it takes a special kind of person to do the job....in my veiw more training is in order (and i say that from my experience on the other side of the fence)
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
as far as the mindset of guys and girls...i agree ...im 6ft 3 and have spent many years learning martial arts and my 5ft ex crazy woman landed me in hospital with 12 stitches in my head ...damn near killed me....
I couldn't agree more and am a firm believer in continuing education in the law enforcement field. However, that education does no good when the people who entrust us with their authority don't bother to educate themselves on the laws / topics / issues either.
Training and communication is a 2 way road from both sides of the fence.
*
Comparing the group of limit-raising states and the group of unchanged states, the study demonstrated that fatality rates dropped in both groups, essentially equally. Raising speed limits did not affect overall safety. The study examined fatality rates on all roads in each state, so that the expected usage shifts from less-safe undivided highways to safer and faster freeways were accounted for, helping to explain the favorable safety results associated with higher freeway limits.
*
Boston civil-liberties lawyer Harvey Silverglate calls his new book "Three Felonies a Day," referring to the number of crimes he estimates the average American now unwittingly commits because of vague laws. New technology adds its own complexity, making innocent activity potentially criminal.
*
Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
*
According to the latest surveys, cited by the DEA themselves, there are about 12.7 million people who have used some illegal drug in the last month and perhaps 30 to 40 million who have used some illegal drug within the last year.
On both sides of the fence....
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
in answer to your question ...that is a resounding no!..the training is by far the most important part of the whole story
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
.. as i finished with the court process and i asked my lawyer how could this could have happened.....he simply answered me..."c'mon you know the court is not about the truth"
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
so perhaps there needs to be a rethink for the whole system which is corrupt ...but hey when you have ex police becoming police prosecutors moving on to be lawyers,and the waiting in line to become judges....in my view that is a massive fail
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
when i was a young fellow i used to clean houses ,one of these was owned by a high court judge who used beat his son and wife,i can attest to this by the bruises on their faces...it was a weekly clean and i was privy to his alcohol consumption via the case of scotch he used to down on a weekly basis,often he would down more than 12 bottles in a week,the cases were in the kitchen cupboard and i used to count them having no real idea at the time what i was witnessing''''...i even had the privilege of hearing some of his rants....often he would be drinking in the mornings telling us if he got anyone for drugs he was going to make an example of them...\
so my personal experiences have not given me a whole lot of faith in the entire system...
boncho
I think the main problem with the general public is that they see their car ticketed for illegal parking (I realize this isn't by police services in some places but others it is) or they get pulled over for speeding or driving infractions, and are handed tickets… But then, if their home is broken into they are told to wait for a couple hours because the matter isn't pressing.
boncho
This has nothing to do with LEOs on the ground, it has to do with the machine. How police services can be used to generate revenue.
(I don't know if this example is applicable to everywhere but I do know police services have revenue generating income streams and requests that are costly and their urgency is managed by mandates and policies which do not always seem to be "protecting the public", and I do believe other examples are out there.)
boncho
Below is a study that showed a higher speed limit was safer.
*
Comparing the group of limit-raising states and the group of unchanged states, the study demonstrated that fatality rates dropped in both groups, essentially equally. Raising speed limits did not affect overall safety. The study examined fatality rates on all roads in each state, so that the expected usage shifts from less-safe undivided highways to safer and faster freeways were accounted for, helping to explain the favorable safety results associated with higher freeway limits.
There was a better study I know of, which I can't find, but if I remember correctly it showed that safety speed limits in many places were actually 5-10mph under what was the safest speed to travel on various stretches of roads. Which begs the question, are the limits there for safety or for revenue?
**note** It also showed that going under the speed limit was equally unsafe. Similar to the above.
boncho
Another thing to add is the "3 felonies a day" argument. That people unknowingly (statically speaking) c.......
My caveat about the above one, is that the author (a civil rights lawyer) is also selling a book, so his estimates may simply be a result of his eagerness to sell copies and his bias in his field.
boncho
However!
Consider the following penal code:
*
Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
Hearing or knowing about a crime, makes you guilty of one. And considering that:
*
According to the latest surveys, cited by the DEA themselves, there are about 12.7 million people who have used some illegal drug in the last month and perhaps 30 to 40 million who have used some illegal drug within the last year.
boncho
…I get the feeling with the numbers that high (no pun intended) for just one year (10%) that over the lifetime a very high % of people either experiment or use something illegal. And everything involved with that makes me consider that the civil rights lawyer might very well be very close.
Tight knit families are not going to turn in their children the first chance they get.
boncho
The hypocrisy is the problem.
boncho
For people to feel they "entrust us with their authority" means that people need to feel like it was actually them, doing the entrusting. Not some political machine that manipulates the law to their needs with business interest or corruption making the calls in some room that no one will ever hear the conversation from.
boncho
In respect to the OP, I think the points I've laid out, play into the psyche of the average person and their knee-jerk reaction towards law enforcement.
*Also, sorry for off quoting you so much, I only do so to present another side for debate. I'm not trying to pick on you.edit on 20-1-2014 by boncho because: (no reason given)
And whether or not an officer's actions are lawful is also up to a court of law and not peoples personal opinions. A position several of the posters above my post here are demonstrating quite well.
An officer is allowed to use necessary force to overcome the level of resistance offered. The requirement set forth by scotus requires an officer to de-escalate force as soon as safely possible to do so. The other requirement set by the court is an officer's actions must be viewed in the context they took place in and not use 20/20 hindsight.
Again, one of the reasons I have asked how someone can look "obviously deaf".
The other issue is we are getting the details from the victim / suspect in this case. The Law Enforcement side wont be released until the investigations are concluded, so once again we have half a story in which people are basing their positions on.
How bad was the accident?
Why did the guy flee the accident scene?
How long did it take for him to stop for law enforcement?
What were his actions when he was contacted by law enforcement?
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
i was in no shape to be fighting the system after what i had been through....i had enough of being in a court room and would happily never see one again......i lost everything i owned,beaten almost to death and lost my kids...by far the lowest point of my life......going to the barr at that point would have been like beating my own head against a wall...all i can say is sometimes it is not all black and white
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
as far as the judge is concerned i had no life experience at that point and had no clue as to how to handle the situation,maybe had i had some legal knowledge i would have known what to do but seriously as a 20 year old going down to the local police to rag on a huge authority figure do you really believe i could have made a difference.?.....if the wife and son were not making complaints who would have believed me?...corruption is ripe within this system and i could have just as easily dissapeared into a deep ditch to be never heard of again...
hopenotfeariswhatweneed
as far as continuing working for him yes i did ...i was not the boss i simply did as i was told if i wanted to eat and pay rent...it is as simple as that...anyways i will happily take this conversation up with u in the morning
THAT is in an ideal world...it rarely is though is it.
We know first hand that some people think their skills are better than others when in reality they shouldn't be allowed to drive a gocart on a closed track, let alone a real car on a public road.
..traversing Florida’s arterial roadways might get a bit quicker under a proposal gaining steam in the Legislature to boost speed limits on highways throughout the state.
The idea is already sparking comparisons in the Capitol to the German federal highway system with no speed limits.
The “high speed” bill passed out of the Senate Transportation Committee on Thursday, but not before highway safety groups and some lawmakers fretted the higher speeds could fuel road-rage and make highways less safe. The bill would allow the Florida Department of Transportation to boost maximum speed limits on four-lane Interstate highways from 70 miles per hour to 75 mph. Highways with 65-mph and 60-mph limits could also get five-mile-per-hour bumps if the Department of Transportation deems it necessary to help with traffic snarls.
tamusan
reply to post by MysterX
THAT is in an ideal world...it rarely is though is it.
I understand this is not an ideal world. I only speak in terms of why this is not an ideal world. I expect things to become worse than they are, not get any better. That doesn't mean that I should not try to inspire someone to take action to bring us closer to that ideal world.
Please show me an instance where an officer continued to perform traffic stops while they were enroute to a burglary call.
The other factor to consider is the size of the department and what people are responsible for criminal investigations, whether it be major crimes or property crimes. My agency has detective squads that deal with property crimes. We respond and do a basic report and forward it on to their division for assignment and follow up. Also there are departments who have dedicated traffic divisions which do nothing but work accidents and look for traffic violations.
I see this argument used a lot and what people refuse to take into account is Law Enforcement does not generate revenue. The court system does that when they find a person guilty and assign a fine as punishment. The legislature does that when they draft a criminal offense and assign a classification to it (Felony / misdemeanor / infraction).
Secondly, those fines do not go into law enforcements budget, they go into general revenue, as required by almost all state laws.
CHICAGO (CBS) – Starting this week, Chicago police are changing their responses to 911 calls. They’ll no longer come right away to reports of things like criminal damage to property, vehicle thefts, garage burglaries, or other crimes in which the suspect is no longer on the scene, and the victim isn’t in immediate danger.
The move will free up the equivalent of 44 police officers a day for patrol duties.
Under the Texas law aimed at funding law enforcement and hitting criminals where it hurts — their wallets — people can have their property confiscated even if they’re never charged with a crime.
Such laws are widely accepted around the nation as a way to fight crime by depriving suspected criminals of ill-gotten gains. Every year, cars, cellphones, computers, cash and even real estate, are seized from people connected to crimes and the proceeds given to local law enforcement.
But a 2008 report by the Texas Senate Committee on Criminal Justice declared that the crime fighting tool has “become a profit-making, personal account for some law enforcement officials.”
Across the state, some district attorneys have been accused of using forfeited funds to pay for casino outings, trips to Hawaii and alcohol at staff parties.
Sometimes, those who have had funds seized may have been innocent, as in Tenaha, Texas, where about 140 drivers were stopped for minor or nonexistent traffic violations between 2006 and 2008. Officers confiscated property such as cash or jewelry, while allegedly threatening drivers with money laundering charges if they didn’t immediately give up their rights to the items.
In Missouri a police department is restricted when it comes to how much funding can be assigned that come from fines
(For more info research Mack's Creek). If we issue state citations we see none of the fines (either the department or the city).
As an example Springfield Missouri conducted a study of their intersections and found in some areas they needed to lower the limit while in others they actually raised the limits.
The problem with the above crime, and I see this a lot from people, is it is Federal and not State. As a municipal officer I cannot enforce Federal Criminal Law, no more than they can enforce State / Local / city law / ordinances. Some exceptions exist (joint task forces etc).
So singling out a crime without placing it in proper context can and does lead to confusion and misunderstanding. Hence my constant argument on people needing to learn how their government works, at all levels, and how those levels interact with each other, and how people fit into the picture.
Willful ignorance is the problem, not hypocrisy.
People lay the entire blame on Law Enforcement because they don't understand how government works. Law Enforcement does not make the laws, the legislative branch does. Law enforcement does not establish fines, the legislative does. Law Enforcement does not determine guilt or innocence, the courts do. Law Enforcement does not charge anyone, the PA's office does
tamusan
I understand this. My position is not that police are clearly violating any current law in most circumstances. My position is that the laws need to be changed to protect the public from excessive force from the police. Currently, it seems the law is in favor of protecting the police from most liabilities for there actions. I may be wrong, and I respect the opinions of others, but I will maintain my position that the American police are often using excessive force. In the end, I choose to accept and follow the laws of every country I go to.
tamusan
I believe that all police actions need to be more closely scrutinized, and the mandatory use of the absolute minimum required force.
tamusan
This should be stricty enforced and violations should be heavily punished.
tamusan
I also believe that excessive penalties should exist for law enforcement who are found to willfully use excessive force. I do not believe an unarmed man should be subdued with a taser. I do not believe it should be acceptable for a handcuffed individual to be beaten. I do not believe that "Duh, I thought he had a gun" should ever be an acceptable excuse, for shooting an unarmed individual, regardless of what the suspect is doing. I do not believe that it should be acceptable for police to accidentally shoot innocent bystanders or passersby. In both of those cases, the officers should at least be found unfit for further law enforcement duty. If they can't hit their target, they should not be allowed use of a gun.
tamusan
I agree with you that no one can look deaf. The article has led me to belief that the suspect car had a label indicating the driver was deaf. If that is true, then the officers involved should not be allowed to continue any career in law enforcement. A great attention to detail should be expected from law enforcement officers.
tamusan
I believe it is time to stop asserting that the word of law enforcement is the absolute truth, and that a suspect is always a liar. It is time for all police officers and their vehicles to constantly record the full 360 degrees of their environment. This video should be transmitted, in real time, to an independent agency tasked to monitor police actions.
tamusan
From the given information, I am not even able to agree that the suspect was involved in an accident. Law enforcement allege that he was in an accident.
tamusan
In the end, I don't care too much about the future of the United States, because I spend as little time here as possible. After my parents pass away, I will probably stay away permanently, and will also stop paying attention to what happens here. I still hope that civilian-police relations will improve, and citizens are free from excessive force and treated with respect by all law enforcement.
This post here is a perfect example of what im talking about. I respect your position - however your moral standards you just described above are not going to be the same moral standards other people have. this is why we fall back to the law instead of personal opinion. Its why, in part, courts exist.
Your view point on the deaf sticker is whats called a leap of logic. Just because the sticker exists does not mean it was placed there by the car owner. It does not mean the driver is deaf either. Did he steal the car? Is it a friends car? Is he deaf?
Ignoring those questions, again, sets you up in the position of not liking law enforcement because you think they should have behaved in a certain matter.
Unrealistic expectation as well as officer safety issues with the constant live stream.
As for absolute truth - Officers are considered expert witness's in court (in general). They are open to cross examination by either the prosecution or defense. So again, its a court issue and not law enforcement issue.
Which is why the incident is under investigation. Do we know what he hit / who he hit?
they will improve when people and police communicate with each other. they will improve when people get involved in government and participate.
However, when people jump to conclusions and ignore information that might support officer actions, it becomes difficult to communicate when people refuse to listen / understand.
As for leaving that your thing. All I can say is I would rather work to be a part of the solution rather than complain and runaway. Apathy is a massive issue and will remain so until people get involved.