Clearing the air on homosexuality (from a Christian perspective)

reply to post by schadenfreude


Bible believing Christian here. I don't hate homosexuals... I hate homosexuality. I hate the sin... not the sinner. Having said that, contrary to popular belief, all sin IS NOT equal. Some sin is worse than other sin, which is why some sins are punished by death in the NT, and some are not. Greed is not punished by death. Pride is not punished by death. Homosexuality IS punished by death. Now, I'm not saying that we should round up all of the homosexuals and put them to death... my point is to only show that there is a distinction between certain sins. As far as judging others is concerned, Matthew 7:5(KJV) says

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

In other words, judging others is fine as long as said judgment is not hypocritical. If you are fat then don't judge someone for gluttony. Cheat on your Wife/Husband? Then don't judge someone for committing adultery. I am not a homosexual, and I recognize homosexuality for what it is... a sinful act committed by someone who has turned so far from God that God gave them up to a reprobate(rejected) mind. Homosexuals hate God... plain and simple.

reply to post by ketsuko


Yes, i am for all Equality. i wasn't saying you personally, and i understand we can't group people into "Groups" just because there are those Religious that protest with signs that say God Hates *expletive* doesn't mean you all do.

but there are those that do, and those that justify it by your religion, or their definition of your religion, which seems if it One Religion there shouldn't be different definitions of it, though, people find ways to alter the definition to coincide with their thoughts.

reply to post by Darth_Prime


But the same could be said in inverse. There are plenty who will always judge all in a group by the actions of a few. That is human nature.

I guess on reflection I have something else to add:

The thing is that when it comes to religion and belief and faith, there are things you have to come to terms with that are part of a system long before you ever got to it. In this case, we are discussing the place of homosexuality in Christian belief. Understandably, you don't like it, and there will, sadly, be some who will use it as an excuse to be pretty ugly about it when that should not be the case.

As a woman, I had to do some similar coming to grips when I was learning about Islam. It's not a very pretty picture for a woman, and as you can probably see, there are plenty if the world who use it to treat women (and homosexuals, too) in a very ugly manner.

The thing is that you have to take people as they are, one by one. Just because one person is nasty doesn't mean that the next will be, and it isn't necessarily fair to discredit a whole group based on your experiences with a few or an overview or even knowing that the beliefs don't say what you would necessarily like them to.

Because while we are instructed to view homosexuality as a sin, we also see the example of Jesus mixing with the sinners, people society wouldn't give the time of day to. We also know that we are all sinners, and none of us is worthy without forgiveness. The sin is the sin, and none of us is our sin.

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

I don't hate homosexuals... I hate homosexuality. I hate the sin... not the sinner.

I hear this all the time. If your God agrees with you, and hates the sin, not the sinner, then why does your God send sinners to hell, and not just the sin?

Having said that, contrary to popular belief, all sin IS NOT equal. Some sin is worse than other sin, which is why some sins are punished by death in the NT, and some are not. Greed is not punished by death. Pride is not punished by death. Homosexuality IS punished by death.

Please give me one example of God killing a homosexual for have homesexual sex in the New Testament.......

Greed is not punished by death

I beg to differ.........Ananias and his wife Sapphira were both killed for greed.

reply to post by Darth_Prime


You're refering to the baptist guys, I wouldn't take anything they say for what most christians think... Those guys are INSANE.. They literally have picked out every verse of hatred and have dedicated their lives to it... Seriously check out their website just for the jokes, google it because there is no way I am putting the web address on here, it is not pleasant!

As for the OP, whilst I completely disagree with his views (I believe a spiritual bond transcends the physical form), he is being fairer than most Christians I talk to about this stuff. I always have your back Darth_Prime but this time I think we should let the guy talk, there is too much hypocrisy in the church and it definitely needs to be addressed.

reply to post by windword


It's about salvation and part of salvation is accepting your sins and asking forgiveness for them.

Examine the part about the two thieves crucified with Christ to see which went with Him and which did not and why.

reply to post by ketsuko

It's about salvation and part of salvation is accepting your sins and asking forgiveness for them.

Salvation from what? Forgiveness from what? Being human?

reply to post by windword


You need to be clean and blameless to pass on and you can't do that without wiping your conscience clean. You can't do that without realizing that you are not perfect, that you make mistakes (i.e. sin) and hurt both yourself and others because of it. Then, because your sins are not just transgressions against yourself and others here on earth but also against God who told you not to in the first place, you ask forgiveness.

If you're really so arrogant as to believe that you do no wrong in your life, then you might have some issues when you stand before God at the end.

Darth_Prime
I seem to be on your check list of 'Anti'

Gay, Effeminate, Drag Queen, non religious

Thank you for stating your views, it is your right to believe what your faith dictates, like it is my right to coexist in a world with you equally.

but if i may, do you feel your religion gives you an excuse to say hateful things to people and claim it as the true words of Jesus?

i mean, you are basing your views on a belief, a belief that not everyone agrees with, and one which we can find proof that it is not real, just as you can come up with proof that it is real.

so again, you have the right to say whatever you want about people, to believe whatever you want about people, because in the end it can never dictate the laws that we both live under.

one thing i will never understand is why people feel the need to be hateful, why do i need to be called an abomination? why do i need to be told god hates us? why do i need to be told that i may burn in "Hell" or i have a sickness etc.


if you want to voice your beliefs again your right, but can't it be done in a non-hateful way? tell me your faith dictates what you can and can't believe in, tell me you are anti-gay or not, but we can coexist

what hateful things have i attributed to Jesus? If anyone should be giving me grief, (and some have) it's the "Christians" here, not gays. THIS genuinely befuddles me, b/c I am basically telling my brothers to back off & clean your own house up FIRST, then maybe your words will have more weight, (thus in the OP I say it is mainly to Christians) and in spite of that I still have "alt lifestyles" giving me a hassle.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting an "attaboy", but honestly... I'm somewhat confused tbh.

You say that a "belief that is not real", etc. I'm not anti-science, so don't label me with the rest of "them" please, ty. I read Gerald Schroeder's book about Genesis & the Big Bang, I FREQUENTLY listen to Neil Degrasse Tyson, (Despite his ridicule of the "creation myth"), as well as that Asian Koku guy. (theoretical physicist) I believe my faith is real, based on not merely "faith" but scientific study! (Surprise) But lets not get too far off-topic.

As per the hate stuff, I don't HATE you, truly. I hate some of the under-handed bs that some gays have pulled in the MSM, like that bakery nonsense; BUT I hate under-handed bs of ALL kinds.

I ESPECIALLY hate bs from my "brothers".

The bible doesn't call you an abomination, it calls what you practice an abomination, but homosexuality doesn't DEFINE YOU does it? Do you not have other character traits? Hobbies? Passions? As do I. The point is, without Christ, all of that is irrelevant. Christians want to brow beat others without realizing if they don't LIVE THE LIFE THAT CHRIST DID, chances are they're on their way to hell as well. Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Does this sound like Christianity in America to YOU? Me neither, that's my point.

I'm sorry for the way you have been treated and maligned, truly. Having said that I'm not sorry for saying "without Christ, there is no hope of salvation."

And I say that to EVERYBODY, not just homosexuals.

windword
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

Non-practicing homosexuals have a right to attend church, just as non-practicing fornicators have a right to attend church. (Those shacked up but not married, that realize sex outside of marriage is wrong) It is not the desire that any should perish, but all come to repentance.

So only non-practicing sinners are allowed in church?

Homosexual feelings, IN AND OF THEMSELVES, are NOT wrong, it is ACTING upon those feelings that are wrong.

Erm, that's not what Jesus said:

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Jesus said even thoughts are sinful.

Church is made FOR sinners. You are talking here apples & oranges. This is a dumb attitude that ppl "have to get better before they come to church." Horsecrap. The sick need a doctor.

As for what Jesus said, try context next time, it works wonders. Whom was He talking to? what was the context? Do you think ANY of that applies to "sinners"? They're only concern at first should be to repent & know Jesus, period.

Honestly, you guys who put conditions on salvation that doesn't exist should be horsewhipped.

As for our THOUGHTS be taken captive, that also only applies to Christians, not sinners, b/c it's only through the power of his Spirit that that can even be done.

btw, if you're gonna respond & are a "brother" please use proper context next time. I don't abide by cherry-picking, thx.

reply to post by ketsuko

You need to be clean and blameless to pass on and you can't do that without wiping your conscience clean. You can't do that without realizing that you are not perfect, that you make mistakes (i.e. sin) and hurt both yourself and others because of it. Then, because your sins are not just transgressions against yourself and others here on earth but also against God who told you not to in the first place, you ask forgiveness.

There's a big difference in learning from one's mistakes, reacting emotionally with fight or flight instincts, instead of reasonably, and believing that some guy in the clouds needs me to ask him for forgiveness because of my personal evolutionary process of enlightenment. There is no "God" who told me not to do something, and then wants me to ask him for forgiveness for "disobeying him." This is your personal illusion.

If you're really so arrogant as to believe that you do no wrong in your life, then you might have some issues when you stand before God at the end.

Are you really so arrogant that you think you know God and the truth of "Judgement Day"? "Clean and blameless"? Indeed!

flammadraco
Original Text from the King James Bible

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves . . . shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

"nor effeminate" translated in verse 9 from Greek to the King James Bible is quite a broad word "malakoi" and it literally means "soft". So Paul was referring to "soft people" will not inherit the kingdom of God" 

I love "Cafeteria Christians"

You should have written checkmate. . But the translations is a good way to see who will name themselves goats and sheep by their judging or lack of judging.

It does not really matter what the bible say. Judging a thing that does not effect you and is symbiotic in nature is wrong. A quote from Macklemore

If you preach hate at the service those words aren't anointed. That holy water that you soak in has been poisoned

OptimusSubprime
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

Bible believing Christian here. I don't hate homosexuals... I hate homosexuality. I hate the sin... not the sinner. Having said that, contrary to popular belief, all sin IS NOT equal. Some sin is worse than other sin, which is why some sins are punished by death in the NT, and some are not. Greed is not punished by death. Pride is not punished by death. Homosexuality IS punished by death. Now, I'm not saying that we should round up all of the homosexuals and put them to death... my point is to only show that there is a distinction between certain sins. As far as judging others is concerned, Matthew 7:5(KJV) says

Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

In other words, judging others is fine as long as said judgment is not hypocritical. If you are fat then don't judge someone for gluttony. Cheat on your Wife/Husband? Then don't judge someone for committing adultery. I am not a homosexual, and I recognize homosexuality for what it is... a sinful act committed by someone who has turned so far from God that God gave them up to a reprobate(rejected) mind. Homosexuals hate God... plain and simple.

Actually the only thing you've proven here is your inability to read well. I already quoted the mote & beam verse.

Further, to reiterate, (since you didn't see it the first time apparently.)

1st Cor 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

It's God's job to judge those outside the church, not ours. Not my words, but Paul's.

And considering the church's track record when it comes to "living righteously", holy, etc, maybe she should repent, fast and KEEP HER MOUTH SHUT when it comes to morality, b/c as it now stands (at least in America) she stinks as an example.

However, we should (obviously) NEVER shut up about the gospel; we're all commanded to do that.

Read that again, that is "profess Christ, NOT "take someone to church so your PASTOR CAN PROFESS CHRIST to them.

Not the same thing, sorry.

reply to post by schadenfreude


Sweety, due to your own hypocrisy, your make no sense!

Church is made FOR sinners.

Then why did you say:

"Non-practicing homosexuals have a right to attend church, just as non-practicing fornicators have a right to attend church."

You are talking here apples & oranges. This is a dumb attitude that ppl "have to get better before they come to church." Horsecrap. The sick need a doctor.

But the sick shouldn't go to church until they "fix" their attitude?

As for what Jesus said, try context next time, it works wonders. Whom was He talking to? what was the context? Do you think ANY of that applies to "sinners"? They're only concern at first should be to repent & know Jesus, period.

So what Jesus taught doesn't apply to sinners? How does one "know Jesus" if not for his teachings first?

Honestly, you guys who put conditions on salvation that doesn't exist should be horsewhipped.

You're the one putting conditions on salvation. Horsewhip yourself!

As for our THOUGHTS be taken captive, that also only applies to Christians, not sinners, b/c it's only through the power of his Spirit that that can even be done.

Oh so, only Christians are capable of thought crimes now?

btw, if you're gonna respond & are a "brother" please use proper context next time. I don't abide by cherry-picking, thx.

You sister, are the one guilty of cherry picking, sweet heart!

windword
reply to post by OptimusSubprime

 

I don't hate homosexuals... I hate homosexuality. I hate the sin... not the sinner.

I hear this all the time. If your God agrees with you, and hates the sin, not the sinner, then why does your God send sinners to hell, and not just the sin?

Having said that, contrary to popular belief, all sin IS NOT equal. Some sin is worse than other sin, which is why some sins are punished by death in the NT, and some are not. Greed is not punished by death. Pride is not punished by death. Homosexuality IS punished by death.

Please give me one example of God killing a homosexual for have homesexual sex in the New Testament.......

Greed is not punished by death

I beg to differ.........Ananias and his wife Sapphira were both killed for greed.

See? And you wonder WHY my head explodes when I talk to the brethern folks? Here's why!

Ananias & Sapphira WEREN'T KILLED FOR GREED, BUT FOR LYING TO GOD!

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

It was THEIR money! They could've done with it whatever they wanted. The fact that they let ppl think they gave it ALL away was the sin. LYING.

2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

You give us all a bad name when you profess to know the bible, and can't even tell ppl what it really means or what's in there correctly, seriously.

I'm not trying to pick on you, I apologize if you feel that way, but please come correct or not at all.

In the age of internet, that didn't take more than 1 minute to fact check what you said vs. what the bible actually said about it.

I'm not a Christian convert as such, but I do come from two Christian cultures and backgrounds, and thus currently I support Christianity (except a few extremists) over another faith (Islam) or Marxism.

I think that since the Enlightenment, systems like Islam and Marxism have caused far more harm than Christianity, not only to gay people but to countless others.

Besides, Christianity was the faith of Michelangelo and Da Vinci (at least nominally).

I know some gay people follow "queer theology", and they would make a difference between a "true homosexual" and other forms of homosexuality.
No straight person should go against their nature and simply indulge in homosexuality for lust.
Nobody should go against their true nature.
That's the message they would get from St. Paul, because while the word "homosexual" was only coined in the late 19th century (and simply couldn't have existed in the original Bible), what he describes are not true homosexuals, but straight people who gave up their "natural desires", possibly to partake in pagan orgies.

Actually the New Testament is pretty heavy on mind-crimes (even Jesus was tempted by the devil) and all sexuality.

Straight is not Great.

It says that a man who looks at a woman in lust has already committed adultery in his heart.

Literally it's better to stick your eye out, or cut your hand off than to be thus tempted.

However, Jesus also says some men should NOT MARRY WOMEN (Matt 19:10).

Jesus Christ said that some men were made eunuchs in the womb (which actually coincides with some scientific research on at least some forms of homosexuality).
I would class myself amongst these, since I was never attracted to a woman, tempted by a woman, or excited by a woman.

Some were castrated by men (as was common in ancient warfare) and some (like apparently Origen) castrated themselves for "heaven's sake".
But that was in the past, and I guess only cults and people in the loony-bin would do that nowadays. However, clearly in the age of Jesus it is not described as strange or considered "self-mutilation". It seems like a good act of devotion according to Jesus.

I can repeat that tirelessly, but the Christian right has already decided what interpretation they will push onto the Bible, and repeating what Jesus said in the KJV is a waste of breath.
Every generation clings on to certain things, and rejects others (such as rich people going to hell right now).

But, I hear that American fundamentalists are working on a new interpretation that reworks all the verses about rich people going to hell where they will burn for ever and ever. www.alternet.org...
I can imagine it doesn't sit well with American consumer culture and the evangelical multimillionaire gurus.
I guess that happens in every generation of continual "Christian" reconstruction.

reply to post by schadenfreude


That's just silly! How can anyone lie to God? Are Peter and Paul claiming to be God here? No. Ananias & Sapphira were, supposedly, killed by God for keeping their own money............greed!

windword
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

Sweety, due to your own hypocrisy, your make no sense!

Church is made FOR sinners.

Then why did you say:

"Non-practicing homosexuals have a right to attend church, just as non-practicing fornicators have a right to attend church."

You are talking here apples & oranges. This is a dumb attitude that ppl "have to get better before they come to church." Horsecrap. The sick need a doctor.

But the sick shouldn't go to church until they "fix" their attitude?

As for what Jesus said, try context next time, it works wonders. Whom was He talking to? what was the context? Do you think ANY of that applies to "sinners"? They're only concern at first should be to repent & know Jesus, period.

So what Jesus taught doesn't apply to sinners? How does one "know Jesus" if not for his teachings first?

Honestly, you guys who put conditions on salvation that doesn't exist should be horsewhipped.

You're the one putting conditions on salvation. Horsewhip yourself!

As for our THOUGHTS be taken captive, that also only applies to Christians, not sinners, b/c it's only through the power of his Spirit that that can even be done.

Oh so, only Christians are capable of thought crimes now?

btw, if you're gonna respond & are a "brother" please use proper context next time. I don't abide by cherry-picking, thx.

You sister, are the one guilty of cherry picking, sweet heart!

edit on 3-1-2014 by windword because: (no reason given)

First, i'm not a sister.

Secondly, you're right. I should've made the distinction about attending church vs. fellow shipping with those that continue to practice lawlessness. Happy? Christians are so busy bashing homosexuals, I haven't seen too many actually invite them TO church, which was my original point in the first place.

But the sick shouldn't go to church until they "fix" their attitude?

No! I'm saying the exact opposite.

So what Jesus taught doesn't apply to sinners? How does one "know Jesus" if not for his teachings first?

Jesus does not "HAVE" a relationship with sinners, period, UNTIL they come to Him in the first place. So why should HE hold them accountable for higher points of understanding/obedience "while they're still sinners"?

You're the one putting conditions on salvation. Horsewhip yourself!

And you're the one straining at gnats & swallowing camels.

Oh so, only Christians are capable of thought crimes now?

Irrelevant, already addressed.

You sister, are the one guilty of cherry picking, sweet heart!

What you call cherry-picking, I call reading comprehension.

thx for playing.

windword
reply to post by schadenfreude

 

That's just silly! How can anyone lie to God? Are Peter and Paul claiming to be God here? No. Ananias & Sapphira were, supposedly, killed by God for keeping their own money............greed!

Who killed them? It says it right there, the Holy Spirit!

I mean it doesn't get any clearer than that!

This is totally off-topic, but seriously if you can't even read the text as it stands, (ask around, plz) and come to the conclusion of what the text ACTUALLY SAYS (no bible study needed as to the WHOM & WHY) maybe you shouldn't be quoting the bible at ALL.

reply to post by schadenfreude

Who killed them? It says it right there, the Holy Spirit!
I mean it doesn't get any clearer than that!

All we have is what men said and wrote.

Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Here, we have Peter claiming that they lied to God, which is just silly! It was greed what killed 'em. At the very least, it was a lack of faith that God would provide for them, that killed 'em, since they were now poor, given that they sold everything that they had.

This is totally off-topic, but seriously if you can't even read the text as it stands, (ask around, plz) and come to the conclusion of what the text ACTUALLY SAYS (no bible study needed as to the WHOM & WHY) maybe you shouldn't be quoting the bible at ALL.

The only reason I bring it up is because you, so arrogantly, claimed to know what sins are punishable by death, ie, homesexuality, but not greed. I beg to differ with your self proclaimed wisdom. There is no incident of God killing a homosexual for homosexual love or sex in the New Testament. There is, however, an example of God killing for greed. If lying were punishable by death, then Peter would have been killed by God too.


EDIT: Apologies to schadenfreude

reply to post by OptimusSubprime

I don't hate homosexuals... I hate homosexuality. I hate the sin... not the sinner. Having said that, contrary to popular belief, all sin IS NOT equal. Some sin is worse than other sin, which is why some sins are punished by death in the NT, and some are not. Greed is not punished by death. Pride is not punished by death. Homosexuality IS punished by death.

My comments are directed to OptimusSubprime, in regards to what sins are punishable by death. Sorry for the mix up.