Scientists discover double meaning in genetic code

So the next question is what came first the protein or the dna? or... just poof?

reply to post by xDeadcowx

Are you really going to invoke intelligent design, then claim you did not bring up religion? If so, please elaborate because i would love to see the mental gymnastics it would take to make that stretch.

I would come to this member's aid and point out deism and other metaphysical positions that separate religious dogma from the primum movens, but I am fairly certain I have read this member mention he was a Christian in other threads. So clearly underlying it, is religious. For that member to say otherwise, is 'intellectual dishonesty'. Unless I am mistaken about his religious affiliation.

Religious people will use the familiar philosophical arguments as a basis for belief in a creator god, but when it comes to giving further argument as to why they believe their particular Alpha and Omega is that god versus any other religious version, they offer no explanation but faith.

That's what I find both amusing and frustrating about this. The fact the majority of the people who argue for intelligent design are not actually arguing for a creator god; instead their particular version of it. I'm fairly sure the Mormons are not cool with Vishnu for instance. For most this really doesn't have much to do with a creator god… but yes, in fact, their religion.

reply to post by pandersway


To these scientists...no # Sherlock! The evidence was where DNA tigthly bound to these histone bodies and what used to be junk DNA, is now known as the epigenome. This was elucidated ten years ago, but they sat back in their Ivey league chairs and say...NON!

Kratos...has been vindicated!!!!

The way scientific knowledge is an ever changing/evolving subject never ceases to amaze me. I'm really interested in the next 20 or so years. Star and flag for your topic.

Knowing thyself is the key to immortality.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by tsingtao

 

like plants and animals have DNA, that's the only thing we have in common, besides living on the same planet.

Pretty sure they have a lot more in common than that in a matter of speaking.

*failed pun fails*

lol, star for trying!

but think of it, on the outside, very different.
inside, mostly same.

DNA seems to know what it's doing, we don't! lol!!!

reply to post by pandersway


Fascinating stuff! Nicely timed, too, as I was literally JUST reading about this and that rare trait, and how they don't understand those nearly as well as they once thought they did!

I wonder if they will be able to figure all this out, and if so, how long it would take.

tsingtao
what if life was just about DNA and not about us or any other organism?
just a way for DNA to get around?

sure seems like it.

like plants and animals have DNA, that's the only thing we have in common, besides living on the same planet.
and the dna can identify a single individual.

plant or animal.

I've said this for years, some listen although most don't.

DNA is the meaning of life, or more accurately, DNA is the recording medium for the experience of life.

I've hypothesised that DNA is the quintessential Universal recording medium, used for recording not only life's chemical instructions to create a form of life according to a specific layout and appearance, (Human, Animal, plant, bacteria, fungus etc), but also acts as an almost unimaginably huge data storage mechanism.

Imagine this;

The point at which a new life is created, be it you, me our kids or a plant is pollinated, a fish egg is fertilised or any new DNA based life form comes into existence, the DNA passed from the Male and the Female of the species is passed along to the new offspring - this much we know of course from basic biology, what i reason the scientific world has missed thus far, in addition to making incorrect assumptions and missing this 'second hidden code in DNA', is much more profound and astonishing...and that is, memories and experiences from each 'DNA donor' or parents is passed along to the offspring, all encoded into the almost limitless data storage capacity of DNA!

This explains some of biology's most puzzling questions surrounding just how certain species of animals seem to inherently 'know' how to do certain things...as a kid i wondered how do insects know how or why they perform certain actions associated with their particular species, and DNA as a memory / experience data storage medium provides the perfect answer...they know what their biological 'role' is, because it is encoded into the very fabric of their being..it's in their DNA, passed along from their parents.

It is inherited memory, not only memory though, but the collective memory AND experiences of ALL of the DNA 'donors' in that family line, right up until the point of passing along the DNA data package...the moment of conception for us Humans and most other animals!

Imagine that!...imagine within you, the reader reading this post, hidden away - encoded into your very DNA is the collective memories and experiences of every single one of your ancestral lineage all the way back to the primordial soup at the beginning of your particular family line.

All that is required now, is a means and a mechanism to reliably access and interrogate this vast data repository or knowledge and information hidden in our DNA. Some have found a way to get at portions of this knowledge...shamans have entered an altered state of mind using various natural plants and herbs for 1000's of years and they report of meeting and conversing with so-called 'spirit guides' during their altered states. The snake is often reported as being the representation of the 'guide', a snake is also historically associated with ancient knowledge...the ancient Egyptians venerated the snake, they incorporated the snake into their lives, often worn on the head (see where i'm going?) right over the pineal gland in the forehead area, better known to mystics and spiritual people as the 'third eye'.

We all know the biblical story of the garden of Eden and the tree of knowledge, the forbidden knowledge...and the serpent or snake that spoke to Adam and Eve and revealed the means to access this 'forbidden knowledge'.

DNA can be likened to a coiled snake, and the information contained within it is knowledge, the collective and entire knowledge of perhaps 1000's of lifetimes, or the knowledge of 1000's of lifetimes right up until the point where they transferred this vast data packet during conception of a new life.

Each new life adds to the data stream, it's life experience is chemically encoded into the DNA continually and ultimately passed along to a new generation in a son or daughter and the data grows and continues to be passed along, provided the individual has children (or the plant is fertilised, or the fish eggs are, etc)

The purpose is unclear to me. It may be we as individuals were always meant naturally to be able to access this gigantic data store, and we have lost the ability to properly interrogate the DNA data, and so it remains largely hidden or inaccessible to us, perhaps only fragments being accessed during dreaming or when using certain chemicals to initiate an altered state of mind creating favourable conditions within the brain to enable data access...a little like having the right connector to attach to a computer...if you have a USB cable but have an IDE hard drive, you cable won't fit and you cannot access the data on the drive...dreaming and changing the patterns or environment of the mind using chemicals or natural plants and so on, may act as a kind of bridge between the different connectors and allow communication...only this happens in your body, and not in a computer.

Your brain can access the data store of you and all of your ancestry, right back to the start of your genetic line...perhaps across oceans of time, right back to the very start of life on this planet..or indeed right back to life existing on different planets too, in a kind of panspermia way. (DNA ejected from a world can travel in space and be deposited on other worlds in cometary ice tails, or micrometeorite etc.)
The DNA is all that matters, since it alone stores the life experiences and memories of it's host..if the DNA is preserved (and so far it has been shown that DNA is still present after hundreds of 1000's of years), so too are the data!

For those that believe in a supreme god, the entire ancestral line's life experience and memory, every action or inaction they experienced during their lives until they passed along the DNA data package to an offspring (go forth and multiply anyone) is saved...maybe the entire purpose of this DNA storage is actually for God or if you prefer the Universal consciousness..maybe that is what is read and how our individual family lines are 'judged' or evaluated.

Why this would be important is anyones guess...maybe the whole point of the Universe or God or whatever supreme being you ascribe creation to is to gather knowledge in an unending relentless cycle.

I've though about this quite a bit over the years since first musing about 'the meaning of life', and found a good book to read for more information similar to what i'm saying here is 'The sacred mushroom: Key to the door of eternity' by Andrija Puharich (ISBN-10: 0385085931
ISBN-13: 978-0385085939 Doubleday publishing 1974)

If we can reliably access the DNA data, and access it at will...we can discover new worlds and old lives literally stored waiting to be opened within each of US!

reply to post by mr10k


Yeah I like your Massively Parallel Blah Blah title... I guess that is true, although only a 0 or 1 can be stored on a bit of information, a computer can store a whole hell of a lot of bytes - and it can stream those from the hard drive.

You make a good point.

For instance, the largest human chromosome, chromosome number 1, consists of approximately 220 million base pairs[8] and is 85 mm long.

Wikipedia: Base Pair

A significant portion of DNA (more than 98% for humans) is non-coding, meaning that these sections do not serve a function of encoding proteins.

Wikipedia: DNA

One gigabyte has 8,589,934,592 bits in it. Also, considering that 98% of the DNA is not used (or known to be used, at least) I guess even if only 0's and 1's are used, electronics have some interesting properties, as well - what I am saying is, there are more units of information on a hard drive than in a strand of DNA.

You're right, there is more than enough information available to do something like an abstraction. I have heard about these neural network simulations - I had a professor in college who was actually doing work with those.

Thanks for sharing the information, much appreciated. I love it when I get to talk about stuff like this.

I thought this response to the announcement was worth a read: Don't Be Duped By 'Duon' DNA Hype

Saying that this is a new discovery of a "double meaning" in DNA is really overblown. Scientists were previously aware of regulatory regions within exons. This is hardly the brand spanking new conclusive proof of creationism/intelligent design that some posters are making it out to be.

opopanax
Saying that this is a new discovery of a "double meaning" in DNA is really overblown.
This is hardly the brand spanking new conclusive proof of creationism/intelligent design that some posters are making it out to be.

Yeah, I said that earlier in the thread, with references, but nobody cared.

alfa1
Yeah, I said that earlier in the thread, with references, but nobody cared.

Ah, sorry, I missed your post. Mine was redundant - you laid it out quite well.

reply to post by opopanax


Then again, here's a user comment from that link :

A problem with this Forbes article is that the author uses “genetic code” as a term interchangeable with “DNA sequence.” Promoters, enhancers and termination sequences are NOT part of the genetic code. Therefore, these sequences cannot be appropriately cited to rebut the Science article’s author’s assertion that scientists believed that the genetic code exclusively encodes information about proteins. Basically, if the Science paper says that the genetic code does more than encode proteins, and someone criticizes this by saying that promoters already do this, then the critic does not understand because promoters are not part of the genetic code.

I am not sufficiently well-versed in this field to make an educated answer, but if this is correct, then it seems the Forbes article is mainly a matter of semantics.

I know that these are two separate fields, cosmology and biology. But how do you think that this new discovery and the long speculated theory about our universe come together? I find it strange that these two articles come out around the same time, and their implications.

www.scientificamerican.com...

reply to post by pandersway


This could be one of the explanation why I would catch a cold and flu from another person and be healed completely in less than one hour without any form of medication, not even rest.

I've been like that for more than a year now. Never before happened in my life. I caught disease like anybody else before that time. I have mutated somehow.

If that is not mind boggling enough, my body's ability to resist diseases and time to heal has gone a lot better since then. At this point, either I get healed in 15 minutes or I never catch a disease.

My body's method in healing large open wounds/2nd degree burns have changed dramatically too, skips the "puss stage" where blisters get white. Blisters never smelt bad, remains clear until drained or fully healed. It seems my body's enhanced ability to repel diseases could be working to repel infections from large open wounds too. The absence of white blood cells could mean the enhanced immune system either mutated my white blood cells or done away with it.

reply to post by alfa1

Yeah, I said that earlier in the thread, with references, but nobody cared.

People starred your posts, including me. Don't be so dramatic

xDeadcowx
I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with the information in DNA?

I dunno im just replying to what I see, it obviously has something to do with something as we are discussing right now.

xDeadcowx
I never claimed to have an answer to the origins of the universe or DNA for that matter.

So a creator has at least a equal chance as no creator?

xDeadcowx
Yes, there are things we do not know. Through research and experimentation we are constantly learning new information. That is all I am saying, and all I am claiming.

Yup! And as a Microbiologist myself I find it all fascinating. I think we have only just scratched the surface with Evolution and genetics! And neither atheists or fundamental religious people should be hijacking it to prove there theories. Unless the research is to do with trying prove intelligent design or origin of the universe, then god should be left at the door and the research should be "creator" neutral. Evolution and genetical research is all about the how, the mechanisms of the universe, not the why.

xDeadcowx
If you want to believe that everything was created and designed by some supreme being, then more power to you, but don't expect people to accept it without a reason other than ignorance.

And if you want to believe that the universe appeared by random chance then more power to you. Just don't expect everyone to accept it without a reason other than ignorance.


In theory if both of us are being try to science we should both be agnostics there is no concrete scientific proof either way. And hardcore atheists are no different than hard core religious fundamentalists! We should really all be in the middle! But hey if your slightly favour the no god theory then you cant blame me for slightly favouring the creator theory?

xDeadcowx
Stifling progress by dwelling on made up answers never has, and never will do anybody any good.

I don't see how IM stifling progress or the GUT? Infact IM all for research into both genetics and evolution. Impartial research were neither Atheists or religion has a part.

Just because you favour the creator theories does not automatically make you some hard core fundamentalist young earth Christian!

xDeadcowx
This is why science and religion can not co-exist.

I don't see why not as long as they are kept separate. Its only the fundamentalists I see a problem with.

xDeadcowx
Making a claim is not considered evidence, never has been and never will be. If you ever do come up with verifiable evidence for a creator, or intelligent design, then you will rock the entire world.

Same with if you can prove that there is no creator. I see no evidence for that either.

xDeadcowx
Creationists have been trying for a very long time and have come up empty handed.

Don't lump all people that believe in good with the silly young earth crazy and other psedoscience.

xDeadcowx
Are you really going to invoke intelligent design, then claim you did not bring up religion? If so, please elaborate because i would love to see the mental gymnastics it would take to make that stretch.

I don't see how that automatically means religion? ID is a perfectly viable guess along side universe starting by random chance? Both have no concrete proof.

xDeadcowx
There is zero evidence for intelligent design so,

And there is zero evidence for not being intelligent design.

xDeadcowx
in my opinion, there is no intelligent design

Yeah opinion. Unless you have concrete proof on how the universe started on its own its no more valid than the opinion it was started by a creator and therefore you have no right to belittle those that hold that view, same way I have no right to belittle your view.

xDeadcowx
. If some evidence were to emerge, then i would change my opinion.

Yup same, if evidence emerged to show the universe started by random chance the I would have toc change it.

xDeadcowx
I cannot prove the lack of intelligent design anymore than i could prove the lack of pink elephants that live in space.

Yup. So your lack of belief in ID is only a opinion. Same as those with belief in ID. So we shouldn't really belittle each other, discuss yes but not look down on each other. In theories we both should hold no opinion until evidence emerges and be agnostic. But hey we are just human right?

xDeadcowx
i focus on what is known, or discoverable at this time.

Fair enough.

xDeadcowx
. Until then, it is nothing more than pointless conjecture that has no place when discussing scientific discoveries.

Same with atheists really. Saying there is no creator is pointless conjecture as it cant be proved. So really atheists and religious people should keep there theories out of science unless the research being done states otherwise. Of course we all have opinions, but as long as we don't present them as fact right?

xDeadcowx
Theists constantly attempt to claim any scientific discovery as affirmation of their beliefs.

Well we all have opinions I guess.

xDeadcowx
This flies in the face of the scientific method and slows down progress.

I don't see how? When was the last time a scientist was burned at a stake for heresy? Let the fundamentalists spouting nonsense, chances are they are to stupid to contribute anything to science anyway.

xDeadcowx
In summary, there is nothing in the article linked in the OP that affirms the idea of intelligent design.

Agree. It just a very interesting new field of genetics and has nothing to do with atheism or religion.

xDeadcowx
You can make all the claims you want, but without evidence these claims are nothing more than speculation and it is intellectually dishonest to assert otherwise.

I have to agree. Though everyone entitled to there opinions.

The reason people are trying to belittle the article and say it doesn't really mean anything is because it's more evidence that supports intelligent design.

How does a prearranged sequence of letters that convey a message evolve?

What this tells us is there's an arrangement of DNA letters that control and regulate evolution. These things didn't evolve. When an arrangement of DNA letters are inserted they turn on and regulate gene expression. This arrangement that controls and regulates gene expression is clear evidence of intelligent design.

Look at this video about gene regulation.



Again, this is clear evidence of intelligent design. Intelligence has to do 2 things when it designs something. It has to arrange letters and symbols in a way that gives those letters and symbols meaning and it then has to design machinery to read the arrangement of letters and symbols.

This occurs with everything that's designed by intelligence whether it's a DVD player or a new building being built Downtown.

With an Elevator, intelligence has to give meaning to 1st floor, 2nd floor, 3rd floor. It then designs machinery to go to the 1st, 2nd or 3rd floor when you push the buttons for those floors.

Look at code when you're writing a program. First intelligence has to arrange symbols and letters into a code they then have to design the computer to read this code and produce flash websites or software.

We see this in DNA. DNA letters are arranged in a regulatory sequence like with a promoter or the operator which regulates the gene expression and the genes that are being expressed are in an arrangement of DNA letters like the lacZ.

Without intelligent design you're just living on Fantasy Island. You have to come up with convoluted answers to questions like which came first, the genes that are expressed or the genes that regulate this expression? How did the DNA letters get into an arrangement that regulates gene expression and that produces proteins? How did the machinery evolve that reads these sequences? Your better off taking a trip to Middle Earth to visit the Hobbits. Evolution makes zero sense without an intelligent designer.

If I write the letters:

aabbvdeeffeTHEjjhhuuhyttgeSTOREmmnhhyddfrssdACROSSgghhjjTHEssdStreet

I have to first give meaning to the arrangement of letters that spell out THE STORE ACROSS THE STREET. I then would have to design machinery that can read these letters and recognize THE STORE ACROSS THE STREET.

This is DNA. It has machinery that can scan DNA letters and look for and read sequences that are regulatory or that express proteins.

THIS IS CLEARLY INTELLIGENT DESIGN.

The question becomes, who is the Designer? The Designer could be God or maybe the universe is conscious and intelligent.

reply to post by neoholographic


Loved your reply post. Check out the link I posted above. I do believe things from the largest scale to the smallest are pointing in that direction, however we may have to twist our heads around to see it. haha.

reply to post by crazyewok


Worth repeating:

Evolution and genetical research is all about the how

...the mechanisms of the universe, not the why.

Thank you.