All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists

reply to post by AlienView


i was pointing this out in ATS chat during a live show last night to another member.

I have theorized that the unseen in the universe is the mind. The space between things, its the observer.

The mind IS in fact the universe.

reply to post by arpgme


What are you talking about.... stillness?

reply to post by AlienView


from google

space
spās/
noun
noun: space

1.
a continuous area or expanse that is free, available, or unoccupied.
"a table took up much of the space"
synonyms: room, capacity, area, volume, expanse, extent, scope, latitude, margin, leeway, play, clearance More
"there was not enough space"
gap, interval, opening, aperture, cavity, cranny, fissure, crack, interstice, lacuna
"the space between the timbers"
an area of land that is not occupied by buildings.
"she had a love of open spaces"
synonyms: area, expanse, stretch, sweep, tract More
"green spaces in the city"
a blank between printed, typed, or written words, characters, numbers, etc.
plural noun: spaces
synonyms: blank, gap, box; More
place
"write your name in the appropriate space"
Music
each of the four gaps between the five lines of a staff.
an interval of time (often used to suggest that the time is short, considering what has happened or been achieved in it).
"both their cars were stolen in the space of three days"
synonyms: period, span, time, duration, stretch, course, interval More
"a space of seven years"
pages in a newspaper, or time between television or radio programs, available for advertising.
an area rented or sold as business premises.
noun: commercial space; plural noun: commercial spaces
the amount of paper used or needed to write about a subject.
"there is no space to give further details"
the freedom and scope to live, think, and develop in a way that suits one.
"a teenager needing her own space"
Telecommunications
one of two possible states of a signal in certain systems.
2.
the dimensions of height, depth, and width within which all things exist and move.
"the work gives the sense of a journey in space and time"
the physical universe beyond the earth's atmosphere.
noun: outer space; plural noun: outer spaces
synonyms: outer space, deep space; More
the universe, the galaxy, the solar system;
infinity
"the first woman in space"
the near vacuum extending between the planets and stars, containing small amounts of gas and dust.
Mathematics
a mathematical concept generally regarded as a set of points having some specified structure.

verb
verb: space; 3rd person present: spaces; past tense: spaced; past participle: spaced; gerund or present participle: spacing

1.
position (two or more items) at a distance from one another.
"the houses are spaced out"
synonyms: position, arrange, range, array, dispose, lay out, locate, situate, set, stand More
"the chairs were spaced widely"
(in printing or writing) put blanks between (words, letters, or lines).
"the default setting is single line spacing"
2.
informal
be or become distracted, euphoric, or disoriented, esp. from taking drugs; cease to be aware of one's surroundings.
"I was so tired that I began to feel totally spaced out"

Tusks

AlienView
All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists.

How can we show anything to exist without a mind defining it? Not energy, not matter, but mind is the fundamental principle of all of existence. Can you show an existent or even a non-existent state existing independently of mind?

You mean like Earth, before life evolved?

Here you use words such as 'you', 'Earth', 'before', 'life', 'evolved'. Now explain what these words mean. Yes you can easily do that - BUT I DEFY YOU TO PROVE, SHOW, OR DEFINE ANY OF THESE WORDS OR CONCEPTS WITHOUT MIND!

onequestion
reply to post by AlienView

 

i was pointing this out in ATS chat during a live show last night to another member.

I have theorized that the unseen in the universe is the mind. The space between things, its the observer.

The mind IS in fact the universe.

TRUE! But it goes further than that. Exactly where I don't know. Theists turn this type of thinking into religion. I'm not trying to do that - I'm just trying to show what is left when you try for a primal theory of all - you start with mind and end-up with mind. In Buddhism all things return to the One. Of course one or many is irrelevant we are still dealing with function of mind - and mind defies definition as it highlights all definitions including the word definition.

AlienView

Bassago
reply to post by AlienView

 

All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists.

How can we show anything to exist without a mind defining it? Not energy, not matter, but mind is the fundamental principle of all of existence. Can you show an existent or even a non-existent state existing independently of mind?

This is one of those sophistic questions isn't it? "If a tree falls in the forest, etc, etc."

Things don't have to be defined to exist. Some things just are, like planets, suns, black-holes and such. They are there when we define them and they'll be there long after the last human is dust. Or did I misunderstand your statement?

How do you know this? How do you know anything exists, existed, before mind? Is it your mind that tells you this? Or is it the illusion of a mindless universe that leads you to think that way? - this too is a state of mind. An independent state of existence not based upon a defining mind is unknowable - without an existent, logical and defining mind there is nothing - which is also a state of mind.

No I disagree. There's ample proof that things existed before we decided to think and become aware of them. Carbon dating shows the evidence of things long before humanity rose. Or is that a trick of the mind as well? If so then this is actually the old "tree falls in the forest" question.

Bassago

AlienView

Bassago
reply to post by AlienView

 

All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists.

How can we show anything to exist without a mind defining it? Not energy, not matter, but mind is the fundamental principle of all of existence. Can you show an existent or even a non-existent state existing independently of mind?

This is one of those sophistic questions isn't it? "If a tree falls in the forest, etc, etc."

Things don't have to be defined to exist. Some things just are, like planets, suns, black-holes and such. They are there when we define them and they'll be there long after the last human is dust. Or did I misunderstand your statement?

How do you know this? How do you know anything exists, existed, before mind? Is it your mind that tells you this? Or is it the illusion of a mindless universe that leads you to think that way? - this too is a state of mind. An independent state of existence not based upon a defining mind is unknowable - without an existent, logical and defining mind there is nothing - which is also a state of mind.

No I disagree. There's ample proof that things existed before we decided to think and become aware of them. Carbon dating shows the evidence of things long before humanity rose. Or is that a trick of the mind as well? If so then this is actually the old "tree falls in the forest" question.

NO, I disagree. There is no evidence whatsoever that anything at all ever existed until A MIND began to define existence; before that - there was not anything until our friend mind said it and defined it. And you can not carbon date mind as it is.......????

When the Bible says: 'In the beginning there was nothing' how do I know this? How do I know there was a beginning? How do I know there was ever a state of non-existence? All that you, I or anyone or anything else defines requires mind first or to say it again:

'Without mind there is nothing'.

]reply to post by AlienView

All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists

This is true and should make the concept of deity more plausible to the skeptic.
God is the light of eternal mind.

SnF

randyvs
]reply to post by AlienView

 

All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists

This is true and should make the concept of deity more plausible to the skeptic.
God is the light of eternal mind.

SnF

edit on 25-11-2013 by randyvs because: (no reason given)

We might wish this to be true. Unfortunately history, and especially the history of man, gives no indication of a benign deity controlling man or his destiny. Much as I find the philosophy of atheists to be distasteful I have to agree with them when it comes to man's use of religion - Most of man's religions start off with nice principles and then man turns them into excuses for more wars and destruction. For man to evolve beyond his often bestial nature he must accept responsibility for his nature - mind opens all doors including those that lead to the future and maybe there is a gateway to a proverbial paradise in a New Dawn - but the gateway to hell is also still there.
Man not God is the definer of what the future will be - In the future, if there will be a future, Man must must evolve to master his destiny.

reply to post by AlienView

We might wish this to be true. Unfortunately history, and especially the history of man, gives no indication of a benign deity

I think Charlemagne's role in history is note worthy. And scholars do agree heavily in favor
of the existence of Jesus. I think these are two very strong indicators.

reply to post by charles1952

If the perceiver loses existence when the perceived vanishes, then, apparently, both are required. So if the perceiver "shuts his eyes" so to speak, the perceived loses existence. That implies that without a perceiver nothing can exist and a perceiver has to start the process by coming out of a totally void Universe.

Unless I'm missing something.

An entire and somewhat intractable reality, I would say.

When you find yourself able to manipulate what you perceive to your entire satisfaction, you may come back and tell us it has no existence outside your mind. At that point you may expect us to believe you, since we would be figments of your Godlike imagination.

Aren't you supposed to be religious? Is the God you worship then also a figment of your imagination?

reply to post by AlienView

Here you use words such as 'you', 'Earth', 'before', 'life', 'evolved'. Now explain what these words mean. Yes you can easily do that - BUT I DEFY YOU TO PROVE, SHOW, OR DEFINE ANY OF THESE WORDS OR CONCEPTS WITHOUT MIND!

The discovery that thoughts come out of minds is not exactly original or surprising, so stop yelling.

Earth existed before anybody was around to think about it. End of argument.

reply to post by Astyanax

Earth existed before anybody was around to think about it. End of argument.

Prove it so.

reply to post by AlienView


Oy. How delusional can ye be? Was it the Ecstasy? I prefer the Pink Micro Dot of the 70's myself.

Without the mind the matter would still exist. Without your mind (and I believe you've lost yours) matter would still exist outside of your personal perception of it. When did you become the center of the Universe?

If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to here it does it still make a sound? Why yes, the movement of the matter through the atmosphere as it falls to the forest floor still cause the atoms to reverberate, even if there is not an ear nearby to perceive the waves.

reply to post by Astyanax

Dear Astyanax,

You caught me. Apparently I was trying to bite off more than I could handle and tried to do too many things with that post. Before I get to my explanation, though, I'd like to ask a question.

Does anyone in this thread know, relatively clearly and completely, what anyone else's position is? I assume you will say that everyone understands their own position, and for the sake of good manners I'll accept that. But I would be astonished if people could summarize other's positions clearly in two or three paragraphs. I'd be extremely grateful if someone would, and my mind, which I admit is not good at handling this sort of thing, would be eased if someone would do it for me.

Now, dear Astyanax, to your entirely correct observation.

I was trying to do two things. One, show the difficulty of what I understood was being argued. It seemed that it was being argued that both the perceiver and perceived had to come into existence at the same time. Two simultaneous creations. It seemed the argument was that one could not exist without the other, so they had to come into being independently, yet at the same instant. If one was too earliy, the lack of the other would cause it to vanish, or suddenly "not be."

If that's true, and how is anybody going to prove it false unless they understand it and also understand what they're saying, it seems that two simultaneous creations makes the idea of an outside creating force very attractive as an explanation. Outside creating force? God.

The advantage to positing God as a party to this is that you have your perceiver already in place, the Eternal Perceiver. The question of what he was perceiving is answered by "The Universe," or perhaps "Himself." Details of theology may be delayed for now. There was no "before" before there was a Universe. Time isn't measurable in non-existence.

Honestly, Astyanax, I'm trying to be understandable. If I've failed, I won't be surprised.

With respect,
Charles1952

onequestion
reply to post by AlienView

 

i was pointing this out in ATS chat during a live show last night to another member.

I have theorized that the unseen in the universe is the mind. The space between things, its the observer.

The mind IS in fact the universe.

Sooooo... Our perception of matter is a function of the Dark Matter in Space that science has yet to define a provable measurement for. Interesting my little Neutrino, very interesting.

This unseen mind that you speak of, when did it become part of your perceptive awareness?

reply to post by AlienView


Absolutely true! However, maybe some people won't be able to get their head around that observation.
Perhaps an easy way to put it across is to revert back to that old question: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, did it make a sound?

Not a single word or concept uttered so far could occur or be uttered without mind - anyone anywhere who says otherwise exists in a delusional state or:

All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists


===========================================================================================================

Perhaps an easy way to put it across is to revert back to that old question: If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one to hear it, did it make a sound?

And how would we know this without a mind to perceive and define it? NO mind, no tree, no forest and no sound.
Without mind there is NOTHING! - and can even nothing exist in a mindless state......????

AlienView
Not a single word or concept uttered so far could occur or be uttered without mind - anyone anywhere who says otherwise exists in a delusional state or:

All of Existence is Dependent Upon Mind and Without Mind Nothing Exists

Sounds like a personal perception to me!

“Concerning matter, we have been all wrong. What we have called matter is energy, whose vibration has been so lowered as to be perceptible to the senses. There is no matter.”
― Albert Einstein

As to matter and energy we have all been deceived. Matter and energy are mental constructs dependent on an existent state of mind. Mind is the prime root of all that exists.
-AlienView