Pakistan troops"In biggest ceasefire violation in 10 years"(India)

reply to post by Patriotsrevenge


Excellent contribution to this thread. This is what I love most about ATS, everyone brings a piece of the puzzle and together we can sort out the mess laying on the table. I learn so much from all you guys. Good stuff!

reply to post by Asktheanimals


It would seem that the chinese are the only clear thinking adults on the planet at the moment.

I wish they were nicer.

reply to post by Silcone Synapse


And our government just gave that Pakistani military 1.6 billion dollars.
What an awesome use of tax money.

snowspirit

Happy1
reply to post by Silcone Synapse

 

After the IMF meeting in murica during the shutdown - Oct 11 -13 - the IMF ups the debt ceiling and has murica send 1.6 billion to Pakistan to start a war with India (India of the BRICS that want a world bank to rival the IMF).

Boy, the FED REserve and the IMF certainly want a world war as they are being challenged for their financial "monopoly" of the world and to keep the USD as the oil peg dollar.

Meanwhile, Canada, and I think also Australia, probably Russia too, supply India with their uranium .....

India has solved its uranium problem by opening new mines. No shortage anymore.

double post

deleted

pirhanna
reply to post by Silcone Synapse

 

And our government just gave that Pakistani military 1.6 billion dollars.
What an awesome use of tax money.

USA is obsessed with preserving the existing 'world order' centered around USA as the economic and military dominating power. The 1.6B is a kind of payment or bribe for Pakistan's services in helping the empire.

The money helps pay for equipment that Pakistan's army needs to 'balance' India.

reply to post by snowspirit


1.6 billion is not that much money to a country. It's basically pocket change.

reply to post by Evanzsayz


It is significant amount for Pakistan. The military budget of Pakistan is only about 5.5B a year, so 1.6B of free money is quite a lot.

Pakistan also gets military assistance from China. China just gave away 50 fighters free of cost.

Nobody gives anything for free. There are always conditions attached.

One must wonder what services Pakistan provides to USA and China to receive such largesse.

Pakistan is an artificial state created out of land belonging to India and sustained by foreign powers to 'contain' India's progress. There is no other purpose to Pakistan.

Theres a potential WW III there. If China tweaks it could happen.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


I can tell you a few things which are shocking. With the kind of budget Pakistan has, it will be lucky to pay the soldier's salaries, forget about purchase of any equipment.

The Pakistani military is sustained by transfers from USA, Saudi Arabia and China. It will collapse if these transfers are stopped even for a year.

I have knowledge that the size of Pakistan's army is less (by 100K soldiers) that they publically claim. They have the infrastructure which was built long back, but no longer the money to maintain it.

Almost all fresh purchases are coming through military assistance.

The nuclear program is also sustained by transfers from abroad. This is the reason Pakistan's program has such huge proliferation concerns.

Pakistan is a country that has failed to provide basics like primary education and healthcare to its citizens but has nukes and threatens India on a daily basis.

India will not be scared of mortar fire on border posts.

India's patience is more to do with the understanding with USA than anything bilateral with Pakistan, to allow civilian government of Pakistan to deal with Taliban in frontier regions.

Western analysts generally under-estimate India's military capacity largely due to ignorance. Pakistan is no match for India any day, with or without nukes.

As for nukes, India has a robust program. The first operation nukes appeared in India around 1988. It has been 25 years since. The missile program went through some difficult phases, but practical mobile nuke missiles based on solid fuel were made by 2002. That was 11 years ago. All evidence, physical and anecdotal points to India having a sizable and survivable arsenal.

People are ignorant about Pakistan.

Read the following:
www.nytimes.com...

While India has always put economic development before defence, Pakistan's army has gobbled up all State resources since inception of Pakistani State.

The result is the current mess - trains do not work. There is no electricity. Government has no money to provide basic education or healthcare to the people. The country remains feudal, devoid of social justice.

India has spent on defence what it could, without affecting economic development or social justice. The end-result is that India's democracy has endured, and more important, the disadvantaged classes have been enabled thus enlarging the pool of available manpower, both for economy and military.

While India is NO superpower, it has built enough military capacity to defend itself.

The machine gun fire and mortar fire on border posts or border villages mean nothing. Pakistan gains no advantage whatsoever from it. If it could, trains would have been running in Pakistan.

Pakistan's alliance with China is a very dangerous one for Pakistan. First, there is no commonality of interests or ethnicity. The relationship is one-sided where China uses Pakistan for its strategic benefit. Pakistan's unfounded fear of India has been fuelled and used by China for a long time for advancing its footprint in central Asia.

As China's footprint in Pakistan becomes greater and more visible, and Pakistani people begin to see the real nature of Chinese interests, a conflict is bound to arise. However it may be too late for Pakistanis to act.

Pakistani elite has always taken the easy way out of milking strategic relationships rather than make real effort for economic and social progress. The result is that a small elite enjoys all the riches of the State while people at large suffer.

Religion is the convenient tool for the elite. Religion provides a shield to the elite from their heinous crimes. Anything can be hidden behind the curtain of religion.

The real issue in Pakistan remains insufficient focus on social justice and economic development. It is not Kashmir.

GargIndia
Pakistan's alliance with China is a very dangerous one for Pakistan. First, there is no commonality of interests or ethnicity. The relationship is one-sided where China uses Pakistan for its strategic benefit. Pakistan's unfounded fear of India has been fuelled and used by China for a long time for advancing its footprint in central Asia.

As China's footprint in Pakistan becomes greater and more visible, and Pakistani people begin to see the real nature of Chinese interests, a conflict is bound to arise. However it may be too late for Pakistanis to act.

Pakistani elite has always taken the easy way out of milking strategic relationships rather than make real effort for economic and social progress. The result is that a small elite enjoys all the riches of the State while people at large suffer.

Religion is the convenient tool for the elite. Religion provides a shield to the elite from their heinous crimes. Anything can be hidden behind the curtain of religion.

The real issue in Pakistan remains insufficient focus on social justice and economic development. It is not Kashmir.

You used to be sympathetic with China on your previous posts but i guess now you see the light China can't be trusted by anyone at all.

Here's something interesting i found on liveleak -www.liveleak.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">The Six Wars to be fought by China in the coming 50 years

I always believed partition of India on the basis of religion was a very big mistake. The Congress party should have never accepted this basis. This party now harps on its 'secular' credentials, the same party that accepted partition of India on the basis of religion. Then how can it be secular?

The partition has created significant problems and issues in South Asia, which simply are proving insurmountable.

The first problem is creation of artificial boundaries which prove too difficult to patrol and monitor.

The second problem is interference of outside powers that fan the insecurity of the smaller States.

Third problem is interdependence of people in South Asia. The way natural resources are distributed in South Asia, both Pakistan and Bangladesh find it hard to stand on their feet.

If you look at the map of South Asia without the political boundaries, you will find that Punjab is the bread basket, and Bengal is the textiles center for whole of South Asia. Now Punjab lies mostly in Pakistan and has lost its traditional markets for grain. Bengal lies mostly in Bangladesh and lost its traditional markets for textiles. Both are forced to export their products. India being a much larger land area has created an economy insulated from these smaller States. So India does fine, but not Pakistan and Bangladesh.

New Delhi must take responsibility of economic development of whole South Asia, by integrating the whole region without any tariff barriers and ensuring free flow of goods. New Delhi understands the issue, but is unable to act due to security problems created by extremism and terrorism.

I want to talk about nuclear posture of India. India tested the first bomb in 1974 but nuke program was frozen till 1985. Turbulent events of 80s including killing of PM Indira Gandhi (1984) at the hands of her own Sikh guards shook the Indian political establishment to the core. This was also the time when USSR was in decline. USSR was India's prime supplier of defence goods. With USSR in trouble, the conventional military of India was no longer adequate to ensure security of the country.

Rajiv Gandhi ordered a crash program of building the bomb in 1985 which delivered the first bomb by 1988. The bomb program was kept hidden from public view as well as spies by two simple methods - 1. It was hidden from defence services, and was controlled by civilians. 2. Production facilities were created within Defence Research organization. No industry (private or public) was given the job of assembly and testing. It was done within DRDO.

The missile program lagged the bomb program. The first missile developed by DRDO (Prithvi, liquid fuelled, range - 150km) was rejected by the Army as too cumbersome to fire in the field. DRDO did not have solid fuel missile tech and it took more than a decade more to develop this technology. I believe that the primary nuke during this time was aviation bombs. For some time, Pakistan took a lead over India in missile tech due to transfer of M-11 and M-9 missiles by China. India eventually caught up in 2002.

Another interesting thing is testing of 3 sub-kiloton nukes by India in 1998. A lot of people were surprised including me. India had no overt nuclear doctrine at that time. I believe that all 5 tested devices were actual warheads as tests were conducted at short notice. India likely had a doctrine of hitting enemy's bases and HQs etc. without causing too many civilian casualties. This explained the presence of sub-kiloton devices.

The policy of no first use and minimum deterrence were declared after the tests. I believe India changed its policy and abandoned tactical nukes after the 1998 tests. Also it is likely that the tests revealed deficiencies in design, so the older warheads are likely to be modified or replaced.

The real story though are delivery systems. Recently, the head of DRDO spoke about missiles deployed in silos in a public interview. Quite a revelation. Now India seems to have missiles stored at sub-surface facilities in a combination of mobile and silo launched configurations. India also has aviation bombs and ship launched missiles. Sub launched missile has been developed and will debut operationally on the first SSBN.

It is impossible for India to give up Kashmir. There are very good reasons for it.

The first reason is that partition was deeply flawed. The partition was not supposed to entail expulsion or killing of either Hindus or Muslims. It was voluntary for each family if the stayed or left.

However what happened in reality was forced migration of Hindus and genocide of Hindus in Pakistan that changed the demographics permanently. So the fundamental principle of partition was not honoured by Muslims.

India chose to become a secular political entity since, and Pakistan chose to become a theocratic state.

Today's India rejects religion as a basis for formation of States. So it is impossible for India to give up Kashmir.

Second reason is that two regions out of three (85% of Indian controlled Kashmir) have either Hindus or Buddhists in majority who do not want to join Pakistan.

Third reason related to the security of India itself, as Kashmir and Ladhakh provide a buffer from central Asia.

Outside interference and military transfers from USA and China continue to create an atmosphere of heightened violence in this region.

Everybody agrees that the best option is economic and cultural integration of the region so that political boundaries lose significance. However this does not happen in practice due to Pakistan's ambition and desire to wrest Kashmir by force.