Beware of those who speak in the second-person narrative.

hellnotes

This is a rant. The use of pronouns is not a philosophical topic.

Either you didn't grasp the signification of the topic, or you are being ingenuous?
I don't know, since I am not you, so before going into a long explanation, trying to find another approach, I'll ask if it is really necessary or not.

The “Beware” in the title of this thread is for those who are easily offended or feel threatened by the opinions of others.

Oh, is that your judgement upon the authors deeper intents and feelings?

I would have trouble being able to discern that from other sorts of potential intents.
If i took the liberty to just go ahead and assume his/her motivations and intents,
I would surely choose the ones I have come up when I "put myself in their shoes".

-I have written such types of phrases, on similar subjects, because I am the oldest child of three kids, one of my younger siblings was mentally retarded, and both my parent took off for several years, leaving me in charge of their care. So I developed a tendancy to be alert to various dangers to them, and not necessarily what might be a danger to me.

Lots of things and people were dangerous for my little brother and sister, but since I was bigger and stronger, they were not for me.
My sister, for example, is not easily offended or threatened by other peoples opinions... but she is rather easily confused by others, and her lack of selfishness, desire for affection and relation leave her vulnerable to other peoples attempts to tell her who or what she is, feels, thinks, or does. I have watched people break something, then tell her she did it, and must go turn herself in to the teacher. She didn't break the thing, but since she is retarded, her memory is not good, and she trusts others, she actually believed she did it and would go take the punishment for it.

I had to help protect her from people who use mental manipulation as well as physical.
That doesn't mean I am threatened by such manipulations- they don't work on me. BUT that does not take away my awareness that we all have different sorts of strengths and weaknesses, and some peoples minds are more influencable than others- and we should all look out for each other a bit.

Now, because my intent is usually to awaken awareness in those who might be potential prey, I could easily assume this posters intent was the same.

But I am not he/she. That would just be my projection of me into them. Just liek anyone else that doesn't know this poster and is guessing.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Pot kettle black.

It's true. If I wasn't guilty of using the second-person narrative myself, I wouldn't have any right to talk about it. I am only able to relate my own experience.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Or 'Disingenuous'?

If only you had put "You are" in front of it. It would've fit in with the thread quite perfectly.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Maybe 'Ironic' would have been a better choice.

The name was already taken.

Aphorism

Beware of those who speak in the second-person narrative.

Have you ever argued with someone and within a few moments they begin to narrate your life?

But you have no sovereignty over any other members at ATS. Though you think it you are better than other people its just a belief .

The second-person narrative is a very useful literary tool.

edit on 7-10-2013 by Aphorism because: (no reason given)

You failed to give any examples of any ats member posting the narration of your life ( as the second person narrative is used by you and is allowed on ATS thread its just a RANT ).
You want us to think second-person narrative is OK but only when you use it.

Quotes you have taken completely out of context included one I did.
A member had told me:
"Some people (I am one) do not respect individuals who have repeatedly shown they do not acknowledge my sovereignty as an individual. We are many. You will often find, in public gatherings, people who will not continue to respect you if you repeatedly fail to."

And I had responded by saying:
"But you have no sovereignty over any other members at ATS. Though you think it you are not better than other people- its just a belief . There are also other people who think they are superior to others and demand acknowledgement and get upset when they do not get it these people do not respect other people. They have inferiority complexes.
Some people respect all people, some people only respect people whose ideas they agree with, some respect no one as they lack self respect ."

I will never acknowledge the thought of this members sovereignty (even if it means I cannot have their conditional respect) .

Only ATS moderators have the power/sovereignty over other ATS members to edit (as to control the speech of members on ATS according to the ATS terms and conditions ) .
Good luck with the continued hypocritical rant with the attention seeking title - hope it stops these people from narrating your life .

BDBinc

"But you have no sovereignty over any other members at ATS. Though you think it you are not better than other people- its just a belief . There are also other people who think they are superior to others and demand acknowledgement and get upset when they do not get it these people do not respect other people. They have inferiority complexes.
Some people respect all people, some people only respect people whose ideas they agree with, some respect no one as they lack self respect ."

I will never acknowledge the thought of this members sovereignty (even if it means I cannot have their conditional respect) .

Only ATS moderators have the power/sovereignty over other ATS members to edit (as to control the speech of members on ATS according to the ATS terms and conditions ) .
Good luck with the continued hypocritical rant with the attention seeking title - hope it stops these people from narrating your life .

Except that the respect I refered to did not have anything to do with acknowledging having power over anyone else!!!! I specifically and repeatedly made the precision that I insist we all have sovereignty over our SELF.

By definition, to not acknowledge the sovereignty of another over their own self, is to claim your sovereignty over them.

As I said then too, you also have sovereignty over yourself and I respect that. You can continue to do whatever type of behavior you want with others- it might be helpful to you to pay attention to what kinds of responses and attitudes it will stimulate to come back regularly. If you like them, keep it up! If you don't, explore other options.

It doesn't take being superior in any way to others, to have knowledge of what is going on inside yourself.
It does take a certain amount of superiority over others to assume knowledge of what is going on in the depths of others... or at least a belief in ones superiority.

Bluesma

BDBinc

"But you have no sovereignty over any other members at ATS. Though you think it you are not better than other people- its just a belief . There are also other people who think they are superior to others and demand acknowledgement and get upset when they do not get it these people do not respect other people. They have inferiority complexes.
Some people respect all people, some people only respect people whose ideas they agree with, some respect no one as they lack self respect ."

I will never acknowledge the thought of this members sovereignty (even if it means I cannot have their conditional respect) .

Only ATS moderators have the power/sovereignty over other ATS members to edit (as to control the speech of members on ATS according to the ATS terms and conditions ) .
Good luck with the continued hypocritical rant with the attention seeking title - hope it stops these people from narrating your life .

Except that the respect I refered to did not have anything to do with acknowledging having power over anyone else!!!! I specifically and repeatedly made the precision that I insist we all have sovereignty over our SELF.

By definition, to not acknowledge the sovereignty of another over their own self, is to claim your sovereignty over them.

As I said then too, you also have sovereignty over yourself and I respect that. You can continue to do whatever type of behavior you want with others- it might be helpful to you to pay attention to what kinds of responses and attitudes it will stimulate to come back regularly. If you like them, keep it up! If you don't, explore other options.

It doesn't take being superior in any way to others, to have knowledge of what is going on inside yourself.
It does take a certain amount of superiority over others to assume knowledge of what is going on in the depths of others... or at least a belief in ones superiority.

edit on 12-10-2013 by Bluesma because: (no reason given)

Read your quote don’t bother trying to change it now so that your belief in your superiority sounds more" socially acceptable" .

And you are incorrect as it doesn’t take a certain amount of superiority over others to assume knowledge of what is going on in the depths of others... nor a belief of ones superiority!!
To understand/know oneself completely provides all the needed insight into "others".

Belief in superiority is ignorance.
The thought/belief of superiority cannot provide any knowledge of what is going on in the depth of "others".
Heaps of people believe they are superior and they are totally clueless to what is happening within themselves.

I've found a lot of people who speak in second person to be very objective on topics. The further they remove themselves from the topic and their feelings about it, the less they will use I, me and my. Then it becomes us, them, they, our, etc.

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with the blanket statement that second person is inferior to first person or that it means the person has alterior motives. Many of the most subjective, self centered and egotistical posters I've encountered online over the years are strictly first person speakers.

BDBinc



Read your quote don’t bother trying to change it now so that your belief in your superiority sounds more" socially acceptable" .

As you pointed out, taking things out their context is very good for misrepresenting meaning, so even if you do it, you may give others a mistaken impression of what we were talking about.
But YOU know- you know that I spent pages repeatedly asking politely that you stop dictating to me what my feelings, thoughts, beliefs and views are. Explaining that we each and all have the right to speak for ourselves.

And you are incorrect as it doesn’t take a certain amount of superiority over others to assume knowledge of what is going on in the depths of others... nor a belief of ones superiority!!
To understand/know oneself completely provides all the needed insight into "others".

I disagree, as you know. I think that people are different, and have different thoughts, values, ideas, emotions and intents. Especially strangers on the other side of the world that grew up in different environments, and cultures, and have vastly different life experiences. It is illogical to assume that they are eaxctly like you inside- especially if they claim otherwise. To insist they are WRONG about their feelings and thoughts, and YOU know them better than they do, seems rather ignorant to me. Or dishonest and manipulative, perhaps. I don't know the motive. You know your motive. I can only say what I feel about your choice of behavior.

Belief in superiority is ignorance.

Something we agree upon.

The thought/belief of superiority cannot provide any knowledge of what is going on in the depth of "others".
Heaps of people believe they are superior and they are totally clueless to what is happening within themselves.

The belief in ones superiority CAN give rise to the belief that one knows more about others inner worlds than they themself do.

I will also acknowledge that often, people are not aware of what is going on inside themselves.
But the way we become aware is by looking within, observing what is there, and expressing it .

reply to post by BDBinc

You failed to give any examples of any ats member posting the narration of your life ( as the second person narrative is used by you and is allowed on ATS thread its just a RANT ).
You want us to think second-person narrative is OK but only when you use it.

Here's a good example. I hope this clarifies.

You failed to give any examples of any ats member posting the narration of your life ( as the second person narrative is used by you and is allowed on ATS thread its just a RANT ).
You want us to think second-person narrative is OK but only when you use it.

And yes, you are correct, the quote was taken out of context. To tell you the truth I was scanning threads for instances of this and some stuck out like a sore thumb. I find this sort of nonsense quite offensive. I wasn't too concerned with the context. However, by dictating what I think and what I do—although there is no way that anyone from behind a screen somewhere can come to this conclusion—I am taken out of context as soon as the offending words are uttered. I find this sort of discourse and rhetoric particularly ugly, demeaning and condescending, and I'm sorry, I had to point and laugh at it.

But don't worry—we're all hypocrites. You're in good company.

reply to post by Aphorism

Did I touch a sore spot? You're angry. You'll get over it.

After everything I spoke of, *that* is your response?

Your projection and condescension have been noted. Your rant is hypocritical. Congratulations.

reply to post by hellnotes

After everything I spoke of, *that* is your response?

Your projection and condescension have been noted. Your rant is hypocritical. Congratulations.

Sorry. I skim over posts that lack substance. Perhaps if there was a proper argument, I might respond in kind.

One is amused.

reply to post by Bluesma


I can see how you might relate to the OP, but by adding in the possibility of mental retardation (or others being more easily influenced) to the discussion, you are talking about a different type of situation than the OP. I can see how they could have their similarities, but they are different, and that is another subject.

If someone is only addressing you (or your sister or whomever) in the third person, by saying “one, he, she, they”, they are still not helping you. If someone just wants to manipulate you or mess with your head, they can do it just as easily by talking to you in the third person as they can in the second person. You (or 'one', if you prefer) are not “safe” from the manipulations of others just because they speak to you ‘about you’ in the third person.

There is no advantage to someone only talking to you in the third person.

reply to post by Aphorism

Sorry. I skim over posts that lack substance. Perhaps if there was a proper argument, I might respond in kind.

Yeah, right.

I don’t need your fake apology. Save it for the next member you insult.

Aphorism

Have you ever argued with someone and within a few moments they begin to narrate your life?

Have you ever had a discussion and not gone into it thinking that it is an argument?
Have you ever been able to have a true discussion? Or is every dialogue just a chance to be a winner?

hellnotes


I can see how you might relate to the OP, but by adding in the possibility of mental retardation (or others being more easily influenced) to the discussion, you are talking about a different type of situation than the OP. I can see how they could have their similarities, but they are different, and that is another subject.

So you did grasp my point there, thank you for confirming that- my personal experiences and the feelings and intents which give rise to my actions are not the same as others'- even when talking about the same action or behavior, we might have totally different internal reasons for doing it. To assume makes an ass out of u and me, as they say.

I will repeat also, that I make a distinction between someone using this form of speech in refering to behaviors or actions "You did this." can refer to en observable phenomenon, and is appropriate (and often beneficial).
"You feel this." begins to enter the ground of unobservable phenomena, and is on shaky ground- it is effective as a way of asking the other to either confirm or correct the indications you are drawing from their behavior. That has it's usage too.

But if the other person corrects the assumption and tells you what they really think/ feel / believe, then continuing to say, "no you don't feel/think/believe that, you think/feel/believe this___" is what I feel can have various destructive and non-beneficial effects.

Obviously, humans are drawn into being hypocrites, because we reflect each other- so I will reflect back that behavior to someone who insists over time, even if I myself do not particularly enjoy doing it or receiving it. I have to open my mind to the possibility that they LIKE and WANT to have others dictate to them what they feel, that is why they keep doing it themself- and who am I to judge their desire??

I do try to communicate first that I do not have personal preference for that and why, and how I would prefer we exchange... but if they reject those ideas, then I come over to their side.

If someone is speaking and you're not listening, the speaker might as well be mute... for comprehension of what is said will be about the same.

reply to post by Aphorism


I see the point you are making but I don't see what you're going to change, apart from pointing it out and perhaps, *some* people make take it on board.

But it's like trying to teach manners to a 5 year old. I'm not saying everyone on ATS is a 5 year old, but when you try to have a logical debate with someone, and people in that discussion have differing opinions that each participate feels they themselves are correct, it's never going to work.

This is a forum of people, typically fringe-dwellers (ie: on the edge of normal humdrum life in their opinions) using aliases and hiding behind the comfy anonymity of a computer screen. There is little motivation to engage in a civilised debate. Having said that, there are a handful of members I have seen over the years who are VERY good at being civil and appropriate - they know how to debate. I'm not saying I am either, by the way.

So, yes, great point - but as my manager says, "Don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions".

reply to post by Aphorism

In case YOU haven't noticed OP. ATS is not filled with literary scholars, and English majors. Neither is it a requirement for membership. This seems somewhat petty to me. What difference does it make what tense others speak in, as long as you understand what they are communicating?

It is true, we should endeavor to understand the language we speak in, so as to communicate well. It is a staple of any society to be proficient at articulating our thoughts and ideas to one another.

That anyone would read, observe, and formulate an opinion about you from your posts, seems offensive to you. Almost as though you're looking to be offended. Rather than take those observations and opinions as a personal affront, and a license to be offended. Why not use your understanding of the English language, and be an example to others, in your own communication?

Personal insults are easy. Step up, not down.