Skeptics: How Do You So Easily Dismiss Testimonies From Astronauts About UFO's?

Silicis n Volvo
reply to post by solongandgoodnight

 

Are you talking about UFO's or aliens here? because people should be clear on the difference between UFO's and aliens.

a UFO is an unidentified flying object. ANY object in the sky that can not be identified is a UFO.

Nobody denies the existance of UFO's. how could they?

I'm new to this thread. Just signed in...

Star, though, and kudos for making the point. I've had (with various members of my family) three sightings. Just the same, I make no claims other than that I can't identify what the H*ll we saw. On the same night as the provided link, we had a UFO cross (noiselessly) directly over us just barely above treetop level. At first I had thought it was an aircraft with it's landing lights on. Since it was following the blacktop we were on, I pulled into the driveway where my aunt used to live and we all got out of the van to watch it. Here is what we saw...

It was shaped like a diamond with the pointed end leading. There were white lights at the point and at the corners of the flare. Down both edges (between white lights) were red lights. Both corners of what would be the tail end of the diamond had amber lights. Down the center of the object running ~ 2/3 the length were two large, bright lengths of some kind of lighted beam (picture a fluorescent shop lamp but not nearly as diffuse) with a bright orange light on each end. This is what I had assumed were landing lights. It lit the blacktop below it as if looking for something. Our youngest son (early teens) had the impression of many tube/pipes on the bottom while the rest of us thought more of the heat shielding on the bottom of the space shuttle.

My guess would be that it wasn't traveling more than 45mph at most. It continued due West for a few more minutes then banked sharp right and shot off at great speed.

The entire time we had a camcorder in the back of the idling van charged up and with film but we were all so in awe that it didn't occur to anybody to grab it.

I have no idea what it was, so it was a UFO. I only go by the classic sense, I never make assumptions.

1998 UFO Flap

solongandgoodnight
Cooper also had another sighting that was not a weather balloon. Weather balloon do not fly at high altitudes and speeds.

Since when is the edge of space not considered high?

seabag
reply to post by solongandgoodnight

 

How is it so easy to dismiss the existence of UFO's when there are credible witnesses' with testimonies? Astronauts at that.

Well that’s easy to answer….it’s because the vast majority of people have never seen aliens/UFO's firsthand. Until that happens people will remain skeptical.

I think the testimony of astronauts such as Aldrin, Cooper et al is the most compelling evidence we have, yet that is not definitive proof.

As the saying goes - we’ve got to see it to believe it.

edit on 3-10-2013 by seabag because: (no reason given)

The only problem with that outlook is how fleeting the experience can be and the mind-struck paralysis that hits you when you finally see something so unambiguously outside what you've accepted as reality that you may not even point it out to someone nearby. During the 2000 eclipse we saw a UFO go from the constellation Lynx (NE) to Orion (SW) in ~ 8 - 9 seconds. By the time I snapped out of it, it was almost ready to pass between the sliver of the Moon and straight up. My wife had been standing an arm's length away, but I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Visibility was unlimited that night (Jan. 20th) and the glare from the eclipse put the object in clear silhouette against the sky giving it a reddish brown color (by now it was more of a stretched oval). There were a number of dim bluish-green lighter around the circumference. The farther South it got, the more the sky darkened and the more it changed. It took on the appearance of a distorted pentagon and by the time it reached Orion its lights were rolling and tumbling as faded into the distance.

I rushed into the house to call our daughter because she and our two oldest grandsons had been watching the eclipse. You can imagine my disappointment when she said they'd just come inside a few minutes earlier because of the cold.

So there you have the basics of what most sightings are probably like. Several months later I saw a description from someone in Costa Rica who saw just what I did. I had glanced to the NE because earlier I had noticed the pleasant smell of someone's wood burner. What I thought I'd seen in the corner of my eye was a puff of smoke... The guy in CR described it as if someone had "peeled away" a little chunk of the sky. That's actually pretty d*mned accurate. Out of that distortion popped a perfect little circle with bright bluish white lights around the circumference. His description was the same. When he described the movement of the (pentagon) object as being like watching a game-piece move in computer chess, I knew we'd seen the same thing. (I was more reminded of the Atari game Asteroids. There was nothing aerodynamic about its movements or where it pointed) I've wondered many times if the rolling and tumbling lights are what it looks like from the back of the distortion/shockwave I'd seen in the NE.

You can see the crux of the problem, though. Our daughter lives five minutes away and she missed it. Someone hundreds of miles away validated exactly what I saw.

If you ever have the opportunity, be prepared for the mild depression that will hit within a short time. You got it right, seeing is believing. Your excitement will give way to a big letdown when it soaks in that there is no point in telling anyone, they won't believe you because they've never seen one...

reply to post by CornShucker


thanks for sharing your story. it truly is frustrating when you've seen something incredible with your own eyes (especially the high rate of speed) and people say, "Yeah........you're an idiot."

all in due time I guess.

AmberLeaf
They may have seen a UFO, but i highly doubt it was driven by aliens or ghosts.

You highly doubt it? Why? Sounds like a case of confirmation bias to me. This is no different of a statement than an alien enthusiast saying, "I highly believe it was drive by aliens." And who ever said that ghosts drive UFOs?

These men are liars, much like the "generals" that talk about aliens visiting us, same agenda though.

Really? They're lying? How do you know that? Where's your proof that they are all lying? See, I could see you voicing your skepticism in a healthy, positive, and rational way. But when you come straight out and call these guys liars? Sorry, but you lose credibility with that one. Why so much hatred?

AmberLeaf
Lets not forget the Bible is a work of fiction so anything in it has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

OR, the Bible is a collection of historical happenings written down by primitive people attempting to describe the things they saw in terms that they understood. They would not know what a metallic spaceship was, so they'd call it a dragon. They wouldn't know what an alien from outer space was, so they'd call it a god or an angel. They were explaining these situations and documenting them in their own language. But keep calling people stupid and liars, because that really proves your point. Nothing says, "I'm correct AND I'm secure in my beliefs" like ad hominem personal attacks.

Arnie123
-- snip --
But I have come to learn that some SKEPTICS, such as this amber loon, can't be shown anything, regardless.
-- snip --

I've experience of a forum I used to frequent. Although UFOs were part of the listed acceptable topics on the forum, there was one guy that jumped in to every new thread to basically call whoever was sharing their experience uneducated clods and declare (once again) that the entire topic should be declared "vacuous" and banned.

You can imagine how long newcomers visited the forum...

When someone finally confronted him with the question of what he would do if, some night, he was driving alone on an isolated road and turned a bend to find some kind of craft there was no prosaic explanation for blocking the road.

His response?

"I would only wonder what was happening to make me misinterpret what I was actually seeing."

Hence the little saying I came up with... "With some people, it's like p*ssing on a brick. Save the energy, it's never gonna soak in."

JimOberg
Enjoy yourselves, this thread doesn't involve me at all, since I have never 'easily dismissed' any of the stories associating astronauts and UFOs. To the contrary, I've undertaken original investigations with access to previously untouched resources, based on my decades of experience in Mission Control, Houston, personal and profession association with a hundred astronauts and cosmonauts, academic and practical knowledge about real space flight, and have published many of the results at www.jamesoberg.com/ufo/html, results with verifiable sources and checkable technical assertions. But these are results that too many eager-believers like the OP too easily dismiss or ignore. That's their right. As I said, enjoy yourselves in your self-imposed ignorance, it probably makes you feel really, really smart. How nice for you.

I'd just like to add that I've shared some of my experience with Mr. Oberg on a different forum where I used a different screen name and I've never known him to be anything but personable. Most certainly, I wouldn't lump him in with the cynics and "you're clearly a dunce" skeptics.

For those who think that Buzz Aldrin has admitted seeing a UFO in space, they should at least read another source that quotes Aldrin's anger at being misrepresented in a cable TV 'documentary', here:
www.csicop.org...

Such programs exist to make money, and what better way is there to attract advertisers than to create a product designed to specifically attract gullible viewers willing to believe anything they are told? And once such people are suckered in, usually they vehemently defend their deceivers who victimized them, now that their frail egos are on the line. Are there any such examples around here, do you think?

Slayton had a typical pilot encounter, thousands are on record. He filed a report and suffered nothing as a result.

Mitchell never had any UFO encounters, and hearsay doesn't count. He does also say that none of his fellow astronauts, during his time at NASA for Gemini and Apollo, encountered UFOs in space, either.

Cooper's stories are interesting and important, and are being discussed rationally and candidly elsewhere on ATS.

I like Kovalyonok's 1980 report, particularly when you consider where over the Earth, and under what illumination conditions, it occurred.

Most of the rest of the body of internet astronaut-UFO lore is bogus, when actually investigated. Hence the downright fear of confronting genuine investigations of those stories.

I've been reluctant to put this out there, but what the H*ll...

Since I was dumb enough to join YouTube with my own name, I might as well say up front that I grew up on a small farm in Southern Indiana that is line of sight from the Englebrecht farm. Because of the way Charlie was treated, there are a number of things I will not be sharing publicly until my mother passes away.

This link is to a PDF and includes info on another local sighting as well as Charlie's.
www.nicap.org...

Because of our 2000 eclipse sighting, I noted that the same night that the Russians had a satellite due to fall out of orbit coincided with a lunar eclipse. The day had been overcast and we'd had sleet so I didn't think there'd be a chance to film. Luckily, it cleared up and I got out the camcorder. I got quite a bit of film, but by the time this object appeared I'd realized the wisdom in getting my tripod out. (the time is about 10 minutes slow because I hadn't charged the camera for a while)

The dot at the top of the screen is a drop of dew I hadn't noticed. You will hear me call for my wife because she'd just been outside. I was shocked because I'd been watching just the display on the camera and it made no noise as it approached.

Peter Davenport dismissed this out of hand as a satellite. I've been told what it isn't, the ISS, the Space Shuttle, the Hubble and the Russian satellite. Nobody has been able to tell me what it was...

My camera is a VHS-C and was never intended for filming at night in cold weather. I really wish I could have captured how brilliantly gold this thing was and the strange fluttering motion it made as it moved. It was by far the brightest object in the sky at that time.

Compare it to the (possibly just by coincidence) jet trailing it and you'll get an idea of how bright it was and just how d*mned BIG it would have to be to have been a satellite.

I've no clue what it was, hence, it is a UFO...

reply to post by CornShucker


CornShucker, that's a brilliant saying! I'm totally gonna be using that now lol

AlienBuddha

You highly doubt it? Why? Sounds like a case of confirmation bias to me. This is no different of a statement than an alien enthusiast saying, "I highly believe it was drive by aliens." And who ever said that ghosts drive UFOs?

"Confirmation bias"? I think you need to take another look at the definition. There is no bias in doubting pure wild speculation. There is, however, bias in excising only the bits of astronaut testimony that seem to support the ET hypothesis while disregarding any contradictory or mitigating information... the actual definition of "confirmation bias".

reply to post by draknoir2


Wrong. AmberLeaf "highly doubts" it because they are obviously against anything alleging the existence of aliens, even to the point where they called all of these astronauts liars. That's not normal skepticism (which I do support, by the way). That's basically an anti-alien witch hunt

AmberLeaf


If i had been to space i too would have called ice a UFO...wrote a book, and lived off the lie.

These men are liars, much like the "generals" that talk about aliens visiting us, same agenda though.

Like which of these guys raked in the bucks over this?

You couldn't tell a liar if you saw one. These guys are telling the truth as can be detected in their tone and expression.

At any rate questing the character of astronauts is the measure of how badly they want to shut this up. Its out of the bag, to late anyway.

reply to post by JimOberg



Joe, you said all that and yet it still cant begin to cover what some of these guys just said.

Why don't you just come out and call some liars and the others cashers in.

solongandgoodnight

Gordon Cooper never saw the Edwards "saucer" land. The story is told as if he had. He misidentified a weather balloon earlier in his career for a "saucer". Only upon closer inspection, he realized what it really was. This shows the "trained observer" can be confused as any other citizen.

reply to post by Ectoplasm8

 

Cooper also had another sighting that was not a weather balloon. Weather balloon do not fly at high altitudes and speeds.

That's the early 50's sighting where he could not reach the altitude to get visual confirmation of what he was actually seeing. So indeed, it was a "UFO" in the sense of - Unidentified Flying Object. It doesn't however mean it was an alien spacecraft.

Weather balloons can reach well over 100,000 feet. Wind gusts at that altitude can reach 170+ mph.

The accuracy of Cooper's stories are being assessed at www.abovetopsecret.com... and everyone here is invited to take part.

Nobody is suggesting Cooper was ever being anything but sincere and honest in his stories, the question for discussion was how could inaccuracies [and plenty of have been identified] seep into the stories of a man of his unquestionable integrity and intelligence.

This is part of a bigger issue, concerning how to assess NOT honesty of the recollectors but the accuracy of decades-old recollections about anything.

There ARE useful methods and we are NOT helpless guessers.

Logarock
....You couldn't tell a liar if you saw one. These guys are telling the truth as can be detected in their tone and expression.

I haven't seen any serious debate about deliberate deception [except from a few trolls who seem to delight in setting off a chorus of shrieks and snarls], the question centers on factors that can cause a narrative to drift off original stimuli. That's the scary part -- it does often happen, as can be documented, and people's confidence they can detect it by 'expression and tone', is seriously self-deceptive and misleading.

But there are methods of minimizing its impact, and evaluating reliability, beyond simply [and often simple-mindedly] what one 'feels' about stories that often are so shiveringly exciting to believe in.

reply to post by JimOberg



Well that fine, but to simply write these guys off as liars is also seriously about as simple minded based of what is in front of us.

Logarock
reply to post by JimOberg

 

Well that fine, but to simply write these guys off as liars is also seriously about as simple minded based of what is in front of us.

I'll look forward to you stepping up to defend me when the inevitable 'paid liar' charge comes down against me. Can I count on you? Where have you been?

Seriously, I suggest you get off this anti-anti-UFO obsession with lie-accusing distractions, and come join the grown-up discussions of evaluating real evidence. There's plenty of questions that could use wider discussion.

It is really scary. It's possible for a person to not be lying at all, but still be telling a story that is unworthy of automatic belief -- but the good news is, there are methods to minimize and isolate the damage of such stories.

And most of what passes for stories on the Internet don't seem to actually have much connection with what astronauts really said, or meant. They are often fabricated by intermediaries and falsely attributed to astronauts. A higher level of filtering efforts for such claims -- like, higher than essentially zero -- seems advisable to me, but then I'm from a ferociously reality-based profession, 'Mission Control' in Houston.