Minimum Wage = Maximum Nonsense - A Masochistic Invitation to Derision

reply to post by greencmp

The minimum wage can't be raised without causing prices to increase and people losing their jobs for businesses to cut expenses. If it were raised there would be a snowballing effect throughout the economy that would bring the current economic / business, model / practices... to it's knees.

It seems nearly everyone is twisting the law to suit their selfish purposes.

1. A workman is worth his hire.

2. All are equal under the law (both moral and natural law)

3. In commerce truth is sovereign.

4. Truth is expressed by means of an affidavit.

5. An unrebutted affidavit stands as truth in commerce.

Do some research and find out what "UCC" means.

reply to post by MyHappyDogShiner


My rebuttal to that is the fact that industry depends on consumers and, if consumers can't afford to consume, that also leads to a depressed economy.

reply to post by masqua

Consumers cannot consume without money to purchase goods, minimum wage being raised would make no difference if prices increased along with it because it was raised. Two steps forward, two steps back.

CONUNDRUM

Interesting read, make sure you don't try to use it though, as it is outdated. If one wants to know more I suppose one will find out more, otherwise....www.scribd.com...
Enjoy.

Krazysh0t
reply to post by greencmp

 

I thought we were discussing this theoretically here? Why are you bringing up what the current administration is doing? I am in agreement with you that no matter what this administration does it will be the wrong answer and will just create more problems.

Yes, there are active minimum wage bills across the country with a national one put forth last year in June or July.

this will allow parasitical, predatory businessmen to save themselves all the hassles attendant to obtaining cheap slave labor overseas
and keep those jobs here at home
sure, let get rid of minimum wage
and replace it with china-man's wages!



the OP is correct in one small detail:
most people are, like, totally disconnected from reality.
to the point of being totally disconnected from self-interest,
or self preservation for that matter

why isn't anyone asking Qui Bono?
regarding eliminating min. wage?
because it would expose the agenda
and the ignorance as well

reply to post by Metaphysique

It's all about morals, ethics and precedent. And the fact that some people sleep through nearly their entire life, not becoming conscious of the awful truth until it's just about too late, which by then, is too late.

2. All are equal under the law (both MORAL and NATURAL Law)

corvuscorrax
Seems like a good argument for raising minimum wage. God knows if employers could have machines do the jobs that unskilled workers do they'd take that option in a heartbeat and grin while those poor bastards and their families wither and die followed by some comment about social Darwinism.

Interesting that you should mention this as it is true, if a task can be automated it will be (be it low, middle or high wage). It is just more likely the higher the wage vs cost of automation.

So, by raising the minimum wage, you increase the likelihood of total replacement by automation. I am not a fan of this, just recognizing your point.

There are those who are fans of this and they are not necessarily who you might think. Consider the origins of the word 'sabotage' and the implications made possible by creating such a situation artificially to accelerate discontent.

MyHappyDogShiner
reply to post by Metaphysique

 

It's all about morals, ethics and precedent. And the fact that some people sleep through nearly their entire life, not becoming conscious of the awful truth until it's just about too late, which by then, is too late.

2. All are equal under the law (both MORAL and NATURAL Law)

yet some insist on considering themselves more equal than others

“The convoluted wording of legalisms grew up around the necessity to hide from ourselves the violence we intend toward each other. Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. You have done violence to him, consumed his energy.”

― Frank Herbert

reply to post by greencmp

I submitted a rather lengthy reply to the OP which disappeared before I posted it because of a "security error" it said....

But the conflict between labor and technology which has always existed was covered in the "disappeared" reply.
Now that so many laborers can be replaced through automation, what to do with the un-needed, unemployable carcasses to be disposed of becomes an issue.

Gee whiz, there's going to be a war....or some event to reduce the "No Longer Needed" jobless laborers, and it's already accounted for with "unaccountable mechanical killing machines" drones....we have been being conditioned for this type of event for some time.

We didn't do it, it was a malfunction, Skynet became self aware....

They came for my neighbor and I said nothing, they came for me and there was nothing I could do to stop them, Classic!.

reply to post by Metaphysique

Ah, the "V" word, Ah, it feels so good to know there are others who actually can see this for what it is.

VIOLENCE, LOL.

Nah, it's just business....

A fundamental change must occur to take everyone into account.

That change I fear, is a culling.

The problem is illegals kill the job market for legals, by small business hiring them for anything and then skipping on all government program contributions and taxation. Now small business needs cheap labor because most of the laws are in favor of big business. Big business is killing everyone.

I personally dont think much of minimum wage. I think it hurts more than it helps by creating artificial boundaries that must be followed. If anything it encourages more illegals to cross the border!

Globalism is the problem. But lets never discuss it. Its unsanctioned and unpopular.

People who support small business also support big business. Its a package deal for republicans. On the other hand democrats always talk about the workers as though they are socialists.

Hypocrisy is rife everywhere. Wall street investors got to maximise their profits come rain or shine. All hail to outsourcing and automation. Cheap labor and robots. Nothing is hand made. No skill. No pride. Just dividends and stock splits. Some say its changing of the times, I say its greedy thinking and lack of foresight.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Those so called "Illegals" wouldn't come here if there weren't employers willing to hire them "Illegally" as they do.

It's easy to take advantage of someone who can't even complain about unfair working conditions or labor practices because they are supposedly "Illegals".

The scum in this country that believe themselves to be the movers and shakers are the one's taking the most advantage and doling out the most abuse.

I listen to a lot of pin-heads try to blame it on somebody else here, yet immigration is required in order to even reproduce at greater than extinction level, let alone their being willing to get bent over by some business prick gaming both them and the system.

Krazysh0t
Here is the problem I have with taking away minimum wages, businesses will be able to hire people for literally pennies a day. Now you can argue all day that the natural market will self-correct wages as people refuse to work for companies that pay so little. However, this isn't true. We have tons of immigrants who'd be willing to do these jobs for next to nothing. Not to mention at the turn of the century, prior to the implementation of minimum wage laws, the free market dictated that employees get paid next to nothing. Also, the mere fact that so many companies pay their employees the bare minimum (minimum wage) just says that given the opportunity, companies would pay their employees less.

I am a Libertarian too, so naturally I should be opposed to minimum wage laws. But history shows that without them, businesses are able to take even more advantage of their employees then they do now.

edit on 27-9-2013 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)

As well on the lower end of the pay scale for sure, the factors that dictate wages have more to do with compensation trends than what the company could pay. You go to one of these warehouse zones and most pay the same or near it be they blue chip or start up.

reply to post by MyHappyDogShiner


Everything is causation and effect. One triggers the other. I dont blame illegals for coming here as much I blame their need to come here and small business needing them to survive. I am not a mainstream conservative. Financially speaking yes I am conservative but on social issues I am liberal. I have more in common with third parties.

When profit margins go down, then yes you need illegals or a lower mininum wage. What makes profit margins go down? The recession. What causes a recession? Big story and off-topic.

i love this.

the poor dont get paid enough to buy food, so lets get rid of foodstamps.

the poor dont get paid enough to pay fed taxes, so lets get rid of minimum wage and pay them less.

the poor dont get paid enough to buy insurance, so lets get rid of obamacare so they get stuck with overpriced bills and substandard service.

lets make life just so miserable for the poor that they eventually rise up, like the french did, or form unions, like we did during the guilded age. those are the only two outcomes.

EarthCitizen07
The problem is illegals kill the job market for legals,

if a person with an 8th grade education, no technical skills, and doesnt even speak the language can take your job, you have bigger issues.

stormson

EarthCitizen07
The problem is illegals kill the job market for legals,

if a person with an 8th grade education, no technical skills, and doesnt even speak the language can take your job, you have bigger issues.

How are they any different from the average college graduate other than that they work hard?

I think a minimum wage (as others have mentioned) prevents companies from exploiting workers. Imagine if immigrants took over all the unskilled jobs. Where are the non-immigrants going to work?

There are only so many jobs, and not everyone can make six figures. Someone has to sling burgers and someone has to pick up your curbside trash. We should encourage our companies to hire our own people to strengthen our economy.

I also think that if you work full time, you should be able to afford a very, very basic standard of living. The problem with that is -- who decides what "basic" means? The government? I don't feel very comfortable with the government telling people what they are "allowed" to have.

In some places, it's impossible to find a place to sleep at night and feed yourself on minimum wage, and that's sad. I suppose one could always tell them to move to a place with a lower cost of living, or educate themselves for a better job. The thing is, and as i have said -- there are only so many jobs to go around.

When the people on the bottom do better, they spend more.

When these people spend, it drives demand.

When demand is increased, profits go up and companies expand and hire more people.

In a perfect world, at least.