Liberalism Through The Eyes of a Proud Liberal

Good thread. Thanks for sharing. I liked your point on the prison system. I really think that needs to be reformed (at least in the US of A.)
I also like the idea of a social safety net, but I don't think it should be run by the government (in the US, certainly not the federal government) and I think it should be voluntary. Instead of the government, I think individuals at a community level should contribute to keep people's heads above water, so to speak. But above all things, let us not give the government more power to coerce people. Do we differ on that?

Because, honestly, I find it hard to reconcile the compassionate rhetoric with force. This is where "liberals" (and "conservatives") bother me: they often want to use force to make the world a better place.
And if history shows me anything, it's that the use of force to make the world a better place is, at best, an exceedingly dubious proposition. Or do you disagree?

reply to post by Hefficide


This is not really what I started out to post, but after much thought, I suppose that I would ask then if you think that I should decide whether I am either a liberal or a conservative, if I wish to effectively express myself politically in America.

Thanks, Heff.

reply to post by Bybyots


Absolutely not, unless you are so inclined to do so.

Personally I just consider myself "John" or "A guy".... as far as "liberal"? That's something that tends to get pitched back toward me when I open my mouth.

In fact one might say that "Ferking liberal nutjob" could go on my tombstone and quite a few people would wander through the cemetery and say "Hey... I knew that dude!"

The labels aren't at all important. This thread was earnestly born of me saying "OK... if I'm getting saddled with a label, then I am going to make sure I qualify the details that got me saddled."

reply to post by Hefficide


For Pete's sake, Heff.

Why couldn't you just have said: "I'm a John Locke liberal"? You'd have saved everyone a lot of trouble and effort....

reply to post by Hefficide


Gotcha,

I have encountered the same thing. I am typically labeled as a conservative. You know what it really is? Seeing Wrabbit's thread yesterday and then yours today; I miss those times too, things changed so fast, and I won't speak for everyone, but I know in my heart they will never go back again, and trying to keep up and re-tool in America these days while keeping a smile on one's face is exhausting.

I'm feeling really sorry for the predicament we are all in, and my heart goes out to you, being misunderstood sucks, but being misunderstood by the obstinate is like #-icing on a #-cake.

I've just started reading this thread and I want to personally thank you for your thoughtful post. I would have to say my beliefs fall toward the conservative side of the spectrum but I really have a difficult time giving myself that label. The political aspect of labeling myself conservative just doesn't sit right with me. It is so divisive. The times I have 'debated' with a 'liberal' have shown me a total lack of willingness on BOTH sides to actually listen to what is being said and attempting to find commonalities. Most 'debates' I have witnessed and participated in have devolved into name calling, mud slinging, intentional misunderstandings and twisting of words. Sadly, I have participated in these activities and find myself disgusted with everyone involved, including myself. I look forward to reading this thread. As a 'newish' member to ATS, you have restored my faith in the ability of a forum to be civilized and thoughtful in an adult conversation.

I starred and flagged this and saved it, I am going to read this later Heff, thanks, this is awesome.

I think we can all agree we have run into the extremes on both sides of the spectrum and it is all about the plan to keep us arguing while the leaders rob us blind and gain more power. I consider myself a constitutionalist who believes in freedom and the pursuit of happiness. I would probably say my own personal life is of the conservative nature, but I don't think we should tell others how to live as long as no one is being abused ie. adults can do what they want as long as it's all agreeable to the parties involved.

I don't like drug laws at all. I do not think minors should have access to drugs.

I do not like paying people who game the system and sit on their ass while others work to let them do that. I don't like giving corporations money for ANYTHING. That is just welfare for business. I don't like government controlling what I grow, eat, drink, watch, or talk about in any form.

I don't like the government saying who can get married and who cannot. At the same time, I think there should be zero taxation based on marriage or being single. I like the flat tax or consumer tax. You want it, you pay for it and you pay a flat tax. If you want the Mercedes and it's 10% tax on $85,0000.00 fine, buy it or buy the $10,000.00 car and pay it. YOU CHOOSE.

I don't like the massive programs that are bankrupting our country. I don't like sending money to other countries. I don't like telling other countries what to do. I don't like our military being used to control the world and I don't like teachers indoctrinating my children. Somehow we learned a hell of a lot more by 8th grade in 1900 than we learn by 12th grade now. Something is very wrong and I don't think it's done by accident.

I believe in the generosity of people. I believe we are charitable at heart, but many now see the government as the charity and thus are not doing as much locally. I guess I am a libertarian, and I don't like the government controlling so much of our lives. I think States should be making many more of the decisions because we have more control on the State level. I think I am ranting, and I hope you understand that I just wish people would leave each other alone, stop pointing fingers and learn to work together.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
And the Constitution? Do you want to keep it or change it?

He probably wants to keep it, there is are different types of liberals, not all are the same, and just like the conservatives (Bush, Cheney, etc.) were behind The Patriot Act.

Do you want to keep or change the constitution Mr. Conservative?

See? It's just a bunch of B.S.

If someone blindly follows their party lines without thinking, they are likely to be puppets of a group of people who apparently aren't Democrats or Republicans at all, but use them and their ideals to get what they want.

This is pretty clear to me now, as the exact same agenda was pushed by Bush and Obama as far as mechanics of totalitarianism go, and in each case, half the country was in support just because the person in question matched their political ideology.

In all cases, I took each situation into account and made my opinion accordingly - which was that totalitarianism, especially combined with polarized political parties, sounded like a terrible idea.

Now I'm starting to think that I was wrong, and that the totalitarianism is being put into place to support a third, mystery political party that no one is going to like.

I think that the people in charge are actually using the emotional motivations of liberals and conservatives to create policies that have nothing to do with liberal or conservative philosophies at all, but oligarchical philosophies.

Originally posted by whyamIhere
This is precisely what is wrong with this Nation.

"Labels", by those definitions I am a Liberal.

These terms only serve to divide people. Exactly what they want to do.

We must rise above labels... The question is how?

Oddly enough, as I was reading the OP's reasoning for holding the label of liberal it occurred to me that by this definition I would be considered a liberal. Problem is, I use almost that same definition and assign myself as conservative. So am I a liberal or conservative? This is exactly why I dislike labels. It appears the OP and I agree far more than we disagree and we each assign a different label to the same definition.

reply to post by butcherguy


Your words reminded me of a song by Assemblage 23 titled, "Binary"

Monochromatic reasoning
A divide and conquer legacy
Dissect and over-simplify
All hail the death of compromise

CHORUS
The world isn't rendered in black and white
Other shades lie between
Don't view the world with binary eyes
We are human, not machine

Eliminate the critical
When it all becomes too difficult
Ignore the layers of subtlety
Force feed them full of your beliefs

If you like industrial sounding technoish music, they're a pretty good group. I think they are German, not sure though.

I wish more people would understand that when we see things in black/white we ARE behaving like computers and machines. I don't want to be a machine, I want to be a human!

Why do you all continue to be the most racist group of people imposing laws that continue to stifle the ability for blacks to achieve at the same level as whites?

Why is your liberal party by far the most corrupt party in the past 40 years?

Why do you all stomp your feet and act like a bunch of cry babies when you do not get your way?

Lastly, what is the deal in wanting to control every aspect of someones life from the food they eat, the school they attend, the health care they are to receive yet you have no problems with abortion and partial birth abortions?

That is just the first of about 100 questions I could ask.

According to sociology it's all about this:

Ingroup - outgroup

Well I don't belong to any, I'm a nonconformist and that comes at a cost. But when the two dogs start to fight for a bone, the bone shall be for the third dog.

Play dumb. Be vague. Play along. Divide unknowingly. Fake it until you make it.

Now politicians, are there still people who believe they are going to fix everything? First they promise. Then they are in power and can't or won't fulfill most promises, but they do just enough so they might be reelected.

The system is perfect. Most countries have two popular opposing sides. First the one party get's elected, they do #, so the other one can have a go. They also do #, so it repeats.

Putin figured this out too. Let Medvedev have a go once in a while.

The Iranians are even more clever. Have puppets do it for you. But we have puppet-masters in Western society too.

reply to post by ForbiddenDesire


I get your post, and I agree about the "in-group" and "out-group".

But, doesn't being a non-conformist mean your conforming to non-conformity? Doesn't that put you also in a group?

I'm afraid that for thousands of years we've been socially programmed to always, in some way, fall into a group. Even people with really, REALLY bizarre fetishes aren't completely alone.

sooooo being a bleeding heart makes you a liberal... caring about people makes you a liberal.

so being a bleeding heart and a caring person is exclusive to being a liberal.


you make it sound that people who are anything other than "liberal" do not care about people

This is a distressing thread. Look at the bickering between the two sides. What matters more to you? A fair and egalitarian representative in government that you voted fore because they at least said all the right things? Or a [insert ideology here] representative that you voted for because they are with the party you identify with and although they said things you only marginally agree with but at least they don't belong to the [insert opposite ideology here]?

All politicians should have their feet held to the fire by anyone who has even the remotest sense of civic duty, regardless of party. I'm just looking for some integrity here, people.

Originally posted by rgzing
Why do you all continue to be the most racist group of people imposing laws that continue to stifle the ability for blacks to achieve at the same level as whites?

Why would you generalize about entire groups of people... especially in a diatribe about racism? After all, racism is drawing incorrect, unsubstantiated, and general conclusions about others based upon labels.

Originally posted by rgzing

Why is your liberal party by far the most corrupt party in the past 40 years?

I'd go back further than 40 years and offer that the award for "Most Corrupt Party" will end in a tie.

Originally posted by rgzing

Why do you all stomp your feet and act like a bunch of cry babies when you do not get your way?

I only do this when my dates refuse to kiss me goodnight after the third date. Otherwise, as a rule, I personally avoid such behavior.

Originally posted by rgzing

Lastly, what is the deal in wanting to control every aspect of someones life from the food they eat, the school they attend, the health care they are to receive yet you have no problems with abortion and partial birth abortions?

That is just the first of about 100 questions I could ask.

Again with such vague generalizations. I personally don't care what you eat, where you go to school or what doctor you choose to visit. I happen to be pro choice but have never once voiced support for partial birth abortions.

Ironic that you'd couch a passage meant to seek to control others in a diatribe accusing others of seeking to control you.

For the record, I am John, a liberally minded individual - I am NOT the entire Democratic party.

Originally posted by votan
sooooo being a bleeding heart makes you a liberal... caring about people makes you a liberal.

so being a bleeding heart and a caring person is exclusive to being a liberal.


you make it sound that people who are anything other than "liberal" do not care about people

I never suggested any such thing. What I will say is that my social conscience got me labeled as a liberal right here on ATS. When I arrived on these shores I'd voted for Bush - twice and considered myself a conservative Republican. It was others who saddled me with the badge I now choose to wear.

reply to post by Hefficide


I always find when one end of the spectrum tries to "define" itself, it usually comes of as comically bad defining the best characteristics to itself and paining an emotional caricature of "the other".

Dont know where I read this, but I always found this to be the most accurate delineation of the two as it focuses in beliefs and not adjectives to describe the camps.

Left:
equality of outcomes
importance of the collective
Law dictates culture
human beings are naturally good
human nature and society are malleable

Right
equality of opportunity
importance of the individual
culture dictates law
human beings are naturally bad
human nature and society are rigid

Theres lots of room in between and many who fall on the "left" of the "right" hold views contrary to these classifications, but overall I think this provides the starkest difference between the two.

Well, I'd say you are a real liberal. You know why you are and you've thought about it. The problem is that many people don't and haven't. And it goes for conservatives too. It's like there is this fallacy or false paradigm that people seem to think they have to live up to that represents what side or team they think they have to be a part of. I think it's controlled by the media. "Well, to be a conservative I have to go to this church and read this", "To be a liberal I have to be a vegan and listen to this." It's all gotten so poserish and the definitions for what's what have changed. Especially for younger people. It all stems back to people not thinking for themselves and doing and saying things to fit what group or ideology they want to belong to.