Ninurta and Thor: The Savior-Farmer Parallel

This is not the truth at all.

Ninurta
Baal
Thor

All of them are clearly masculine. Many even had wives (Gula, goddess of medicine / Anat, Queen of Heaven / Sif, goddess of the fields).

You misunderstood. It's not about them being solely male, it's about them having both -- hermaphrodites.

Here are some references for you to research, kindly take careful note how this farmer-god transitions between civilizations and cultures:

"The ancient Sumerians associated Saturn with the god Ninurta, who was the god of war and hunting." - The Power of Stars: How Celestial Observations Have Shaped Civilization, p. 24

"With Ninurta's ability to control lightning, and in the presence of his trusty hammer, it's fairly easy that he is the god that the Nordics called Thor. In his capacity as a farmer-god, the Greeks equated Ninurta with their harvest-god Kronos, whom the Romans in turn identified with their fertility god Saturn." - A Day in the Life of God (Paperback bw 5th Ed), p.75

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So, from the Sumerians, to the Greeks, to the Romans, and then to the Nordics, Ninurta had transitioned by name to Kronos, to Saturn and then to Thor. The worship of this farmer-god had merely continued from civilization to civilization and from culture to culture. It never really ended. I believe the story lines that came with it merely continued starting from Sumeria. In other words, it's book 1 from Sumeria, book 2 from the Greeks, book 3 from the Romans, book 4 from the Nordics and so on and so forth.

In ancient Iran, this farmer-god is called Zervan.

“The Iranian god of limitless time, Zervan, whom the Greek historians rightly saw as Chronos, was also androgynous” - Patterns in comparative religion by Mircea Eliade, Rosemary Sheed, p. 422

"The mythical history of the world in Iran begins with Zurvan ("Time"), a hermaphrodite, who existed prior to heaven, earth," The Hebrew Goddess by Raphael Patai - p120

In ancient Persia, this farmer-god is called Mithra.

“A variety of sources, both ancient and modern, support this identification of Saturn and the Mithraic Sun.” - The Ancient world, Volumes 31-32, p .13

“In other words, Mithras is Saturn and Oceanus as well and thus the creator of both fertility and water.” - Mithras, the Secret God, M.J. Vermaseren, London, 1963


As to the farmer-god being hermaphrodite, read these sources:

"These observations perfectly accord with the character of Mithras. Like Siva, Osiris, Bacchus, Adonis, Venus, and Minerva, he was an hermaphrodite," - The origin of pagan idolatry ascertained from historical testimony ..., Volume 3, p. 182

"Thus among the Egyptians were Osiris and Isis ; among the ancient Persians, the hermaphrodite Mitra-Mithras" - The Biblical Repository and Classical Review - Volume 2 - Page 442


As to Baal as the farmer-god Saturn and being a hermaphrodite:

"According to Eustathius* Iao was identified with Baal, (that is, Bar-Typhon in Egypt), whose image was worshipped by Manasseh, one form of whom was Baal of the seventh heaven, or Saturn." - The Natural Genesis By Gerald Massey, p.78

“The orthodox Godwyn considers Molok, Baal, and Saturn as one,” Rivers of Life: Or Sources and Streams of the Faith of Man in All Lands by J.G.R. Forlong, p. 529

"Baal was the bisexual deity of the Canaanites, Chaldeans and Phoenicians." - When Sex Was Religion By Larry Falls, p. 262

“... under the names of Cronos, Saturn, Tan, Baal-Haldim, Hobal, Oulam, was adored by various Semitic tribes, as a stone, as a tree, as a great dragon, or an androgynous figure.” - Bible Folklore a Study in Comparative Mythology by J. E. Thorold Rogers, p. 107

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Clearly, from these numerous sources, we can conclude that his farmer-god who was originally known as Ninurta is a hermaphrodite.

Ishtar
Isis
Aphrodite

All of them are clearly feminine. Many even had husbands (Dumuzi, god of shepherds / Osiris, god of the dead / Hephaestus, god of metallurgy).

To think that Ba'al was a woman, or that Venus was a man is ridiculous.

~ Wandering Scribe

Again, you misunderstood. It's not about them being solely male or being solely female, it's about them having both -- hermaphrodites.

Here are some references for you to research:

"The categorisation of certain modes of behaviour as masculine or feminine led to the conclusion that Ishtar was 'androgynous', 'bisexual', or a 'hermaphrodite' (Groneberg 1986, 1997; Harris 1990, 2000)." - Women of Babylon: Gender and Representation in Mesopotamia By Zainab Bahrani

"Ishtar-Venus is hermaphroditic, and her female aspect is that of fertility, whereas the male aspect is negative', "anti-life," so to speak." - The Balaam Text from Deir ʻAlla Re-evaluated: Proceedings of the ... edited by Jacob Hoftijzer, Gerrit Van der Kooij, p.63

"One of the oldest sources of female hirsutism, can be found in connection with the Babylonian goddess Ishtar, who was regarded as the queen of heaven and of the stars. Depicted as bearded as dressed as a warrior, she was also sometimes portrayed as hermaphroditic." The Female Crucifix: Images of St. Wilgefortis Since the Middle Ages By Ilse E. Friesen, p.112

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Finally, Baal (Saturn, Ninurta, Thor, Kronos, etc.) and Ashtaroth (Ishtar, Inanna, Venus, etc.) are really only one of the same deity. They are not really many gods and goddesses, it is only one being, one person, one "it", manifesting itself on both sides. It must have these opposite aspects of the male and female being one, so that, according to them, only then that enlightenment occurs.

"Now Baal and Ashtaroth are really only one; a hyphenated or androgynous god; the production energy of all.” - Christ and progress: a discussion of problems of our time by David James Burrell, p .143

Also, Ninurta had a sickle, a tool used for collecting wheat and grains, and in separating the wheat from the chaff. A tool with no connotations toward Death (sickles and scythes are different tools).

Your "soul harvest" scenario is only applicable in Medieval European superstition, it does not apply at all to actual ancient harvest deities.

As I have mentioned, it is merely symbolic of something sinister - the devil and the pitchfork and the grim reaper with the scythe. All of which have in connection with "harvest". It is not concocted out of an artist's imagination, it is there with a symbolic purpose that goes way back to ancient Sumeria.

Read these references and kindly note why I connected this with the harvest of souls.

According to these references and my previous references, Ninurta is associated with Saturn.

"The ancient Sumerians associated Saturn with the god Ninurta, who was the god of war and hunting." - The Power of Stars: How Celestial Observations Have Shaped Civilization, p. 24

"In Babylonian mythology, Saturn was associated with “Ninurta” and was seen as sacred because this was the god closest to the sacred heavens." - Finding Our Center:An Astrological and Cosmological View of Our Time By Heather M. Ensworth Ph. D., Heather M. Ensworth

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Now, kindly read these references:

"Dr. F. Homer Curtiss, in his book ‘The Message of Aquaria’ elaborates this theme. ‘Satan or Saturn is referred to in Job as one of the sons of God (archangels) who, because of his office becomes the Tester, the Adversary, the Accuser, and the Initiator. There are many instances also in the ‘The Secret Doctrine’ where Satan and Saturn are identified as one and the same being.” – Theosophical Seal by Arthur M. Coon, James S. Perkins, p. 165

"Saturn is the opposite to Jupiter, his symbol is the cross above the sign of Luna. He is the Satan, the Tempter, or rather Tester.” – Freemasonry and the Ancient Gods, by J.S. Ward, p. 232

"But, according to the passage just quoted from the Revelations, the serpent is also called Satan, so that Saturn and the serpent being the same, we see that Saturn should be also the same as Satan.” – Myths Traced to Their Primary Source Through Language by Morgan P. Kavanagh, p. 203

"This is the first day of the thirteen-day Satanic ritual relating to fire, the fire god, Baal, or Molech/Nimrod (the Sun God), also known as the Roman god, Saturn (Satan/Devil)." Ritual Abuse and Mind Control: The Manipulation of Attachment Needs edited by Orit Badouk Epstein, Joseph Schwartz, Rachel Wingfield Schwartz, p.26

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If Ninurta is Saturn, then, obviously he is according to the references above.

These are the images of the goddess Venus (Ashtoreth/Ishtar/Inanna/Cybelle/Diana/etc).





"Ishtar's identification with Venus is of special interest. When that planet was at its brightest phase, its rays were referred to as "the beard" of the goddess; she was the "bearded Aphrodite"--a bisexual deity evidently." – Myths of Babylonia and Assyria, by Donald A. MacKenzie [1915], p. 302

"The In-nin-sa-gur-ra says, ‘She (Ishtar) changes the right side (male) into the left side (female) , she changes the left side into the right side, she turns a man into a woman, she turns a woman into a man, she adorns a man as a woman, she adorns a woman as a man." - Sjoberg, A.W., In-nin-sa-gur-ra: A Hymn to the Goddess Inanna, Zeitschrift fur Assyriologie 65, no. 2 (1976) p.225

Thor is also known as the god Jupiter.

"The Germanic thunder god Thor was also equated with Jupiter, an association that explains how the Roman weekday dies jovis (Jove's day) became Thursday (Thor's day) in English." Gods, Goddesses, and Mythology, Volume 6, p. 788

Since Thor is Jupiter, then, according to these sources:

"Ymer and Omoroca are each the same as that hermaphrodite Jupiter of the Orphic theology." - The God-Idea of the Ancients or Sex in Religion By Eliza Burt Gamble

"He is the hermaphrodite Iswara, the hermaphrodite Jupiter, the hermaphrodite Osiris, the hermaphrodite Attis, the hermaphrodite Venus, and the hermaphrodite Adonis." The Origin of Pagan Idolatry: Ascertained from Historical ..., Volume 2 By George Stanley Faber , p.488

reply to post by 8eightup


First and foremost, I want to commend you on a thorough reply. While we disagree still (I'll get to that in a minute), I can admire and appreciate someone who takes the time to search for information in support of their thesis. If I were a moderator I would applaud you for the above replies, even though I disagree with the conclusion.

Second, the spread and growth of archetypes among mythology and the world's pantheons. I agree with this theory, to an extent. For massively important figures, like the Creator, I most certainly recognize the evolution from Sumer (with Enlil and Enki) into Mesopotamia at large (with El and Ea), then north into the Semitic lands (with Il, then the many Ba'als), and so on into Anatolia, Greece (Zeus), and possibly even the Norse with Odin.

I do not believe that this theory applies to every culture equally though, unless you discard the written mythology of the people. The mythology of the people is the only testament we have concerning how the native cultures viewed their deities and divine creatures. On that note, it is easy to say "any harvest-god is really just one god appearing under many faces" if you ignore the myths and stories the people told concerning them.

I do not ignore the mythology.

Hermaphrodites.

The hermaphroditic element of the harvest-god is Greek in origin, arising with the Kybele mythology as it migrated from Anatolia to mainland Greece. The eunuchs of Kybele, who honored the fallen harvest-god Attis, were known to castrate themselves in rite and ritual. This is where the hermaphroditic element of the harvest-god mythology comes in.

What the quotes you've presented are doing, is assuming that everything the later cultures believed, was also believed by the earlier cultures. That is simply not true. The earliest rites of Kybele and Attis shared commonalities with Ishtar and Thammuz, and were representative of the withering of the crops in winter, and their return in summer.

The reason why Kybele's rites were so strange according to Greek scholarship is because the Greeks (and especially the Romans after them) treated any foreign worship or practice (which Kybele was) with disdain. Kybele's worship became a joke, an abstraction, and detestable because she was not native to the Greek mainland.

I wanted to write a small something about your quote concerning the bearded Ishtar. First and foremost, the "beards" of the Mesopotamian gods were equally "beards" as they were ceremonial garments. However, the deity you're referring to is actually known as Ashtart, a semitic variation of Ishtar.

Ashtart was syncretized with the deity Athtar because both of them were representative of Venus. Ashtart was a female goddess, Athtar a male god. Interestingly enough, the bearded version of Ashtart is referred to in inscription and text as "Ashtar", lacking the "t" which denotes femininity. The "bearded Ishtar" may be nothing more than the male representation of Venus, Athtar, and not Ishtar at all.

So, harvest-gods.

If you look at, and say, "harvest-god", then ignore the mythology, which tells you how the cultures viewed that god, then yes, you can say Ninurta was a hermaphrodite, and is the same as all other harvest-gods across the entire planet.

If you read the mythology, and come to an understanding of how the people viewed the particular god, then you will quickly see that Nisaba, Haia, Ninurta, Ashnan, and Inanna are not the same deity, are not hermaphroditic representations, but are instead representations of various different grain and harvest related functions.

From there it is easy to undo the supposed chain.

Ninurta, for example, did not carry a hammer. He carried a mace. The quote you posted has misidentified Sharur as Mjolnir. The mace was not used in harvest duties either, but was used to slay monsters and fend off demons. There is no text available in which Ninurta uses Sharur --- or a hammer --- in a harvest-related duty.

Further, Ninurta did not partake in any of the myths which Cronus did (swallowing children, castrating his father, etc). In fact, Ninurta had no children, and was devoutly loyal to his father, Enlil. If you never read the myths, then you will never know that one harvest-god (Cronus) committed both patricide and infanticide, while the other did not. A very big disparity between the two.

If you do read the mythology though, you'll notice that Enki has a myth where he swallows his children, and doing so sickens him and causes him to become too weak to rule. You'll notice that the Anatolian deity Tarhunt castrates his father, Kumarbi, to secure kingship of the pantheon. The difference? Enki is a god of wisdom, crafting, and magic. Tarhunt is a mountain god who rules over storms.


~ Wandering Scribe

If a lot of scholars and authors are all in agreement with what they have studied and researched and if they have taken different paths to search for answers only to arrive with the same conclusions, then, we can take confidence of what they have written. I stand by these scholars who have done so much tedious work on it.

There could be a connection between these two cultures if an article I read once (probably on ATS) is correct. Somebody surmised that the ancient Sumerians were of Finno-Ugric stock that had wandered in from central Asia at some point. The Sumerians were not native to area and were blue-eyed according to some of their statues. The Vikings could have picked up stories from Finns who they met in Scandinavia. I stand to be corrected of course.
It would be interesting to see if the ancient Finns have a related story.