Resonance: Music, Quantum, and Chaos

i have a pet theory that the 'top' and the 'bottom' of the universe form a feedback loop.

didnt kashai mention mobius strip earlier?

reply to post by ImaFungi

Anything that can exist that could qualify as neither order or chaos?

noise. but as you and kashai have been discussing (re: randomness), noise may not truly exist.

also, i want to reiterate that there is a clear distinction between chaos and noise. chaos is "noise" with long-range correlation.

ETA: given what we are currently discussing, i would venture to guess that, although chaotic systems do require (very, very) specific conditions, those conditions might arise in an infinite number of contexts. or, that universes with living systems or consciousness would be relatively common.

reply to post by tgidkp


What comes to my mind of interest with this post and the video, is a question of; Doesnt the existence of fractals,and math functions in general depend on the manifold of space and potentials of energy? Like a fractal literally cant go on forever, even though in theory it may, it would require a computer to compute the simulation, literally forever, to prove and initiate its existence. Like wise I remember completely disagreeing with your statements regarding the possibility of an area of space, in a moment of time, containing infinite area of space. So a fractal could not be zoomed in upon there for eternity either. The one true relation to fractals and infinitude I am willing to admit, is the sum of reality, the totality of totality, the history of history. So say the energy that forms this universe right now, has been at least 999999^infinite 999^infinite 999 manifestations of 'universes' or systems,(and there will be that number times infinite infinities to come) the overarching process of the dynamic evolution of 'reality' (because it naturally may have limits, I believe it is finite in quantity, infinite in time) may be fractal, in that if it were represented by a number the number as long as it may be, as infinitely long, it may have significant patterns, (functions and concepts repeating...it is of a specific nature and way, the universe and reality is not fundamentally infinitely different things right now, it is so exact and specific(like we know fundamental reality is made up of a certain style of foundation, its not like jello and corn and infinite weird things we cant think of, it seems to be bits of quanta which are comparable in size, velocity, mass, and other physical variables).

I looked up pi in wiki, and a point it said the number in pi appears to be random but noone has proved anything about it, or something, its in either the first or second paragraph, or third. But I think there is no way it can be random, it has to be a pattern. Because Pi=pi. When you compute pi you dont get a different number every time, to get that very unique circumstance of a circle, you need that exact number, there is something significant to that, I think at least.

reply to post by tgidkp


I think thats very true, but still confusing as heck. I think life/conciseness is probably somewhere in the middle of scale, where small meets large, a little area of freedom where numbers overflow into strange novelty.

Its confusing as heck because, which came first, the small or the large?

also which came first, energy or matter?

reply to post by tgidkp


what do you mean chaos is noise with long range correlation? Can you give examples of both?

reply to post by tgidkp


I do want you to take some time to fish through my replies to you to see if you can find anything worthy of discussing, but I gotta mention this before I forget.

Regarding the nature and reality of the mind/imagination. When I say, dog, cat, car, house, hamburger, you can see these things I am saying. I am wondering what do you think of the 'space' in which you see these images? Is the space real 3-d? Or is it a digital projection of some kind? When you have a dream and interact with people and circumvent a scene is your 'point' of awareness traveling through a real space, or is there a finite manifold, with its pixels in which all the things you imagine and think are project on, like an Escher sketch of some kind? And I dont think in 3-d manifold anything 2-d exists, so im guessing the imagination would have to be some type of 3-d phenomenon. Im wondering the nature of the information, is the information of words and definitions stored analogly as in molecules taking on the physical shape of words, or is it digital, in that A is represented by a certain flux of electrons, and B another, and the word Boy by the sequence of fluxes, and the meaning of boy by more still? So is this a digital process? Where physical 'bits' electrons (synapses, neurons, electric pulses) = and has the ability to create something, it is not. Complex pseudo physical reality in the realm of mind. Dreams with homes, and colors, and sensation and dialogue and plot, and insight and emotion, how are those things being caused by just different patterns of electrical pulses? And could It be similar to how electrical pulses in a computer can result in the projection and tinkering with game play on a computer screen? Also its amazing how many memories are stored, the things you can recall, the details, things youve heard, places youve been, how youve felt, people youve met, things youve read. Its also elusive to my mind, how memories can possibly be recalled; when I say think of a child hood memory, or think of the first girl you kissed (if you have kissed a girl) what is the process from going from blank state to 'searching for a memory' and retrieving it. Its quite remarkable.

reply to post by ImaFungi


noise



long-range correlation




(i hope you didnt find that too confusing.)

murmuration video

reply to post by tgidkp


What are the differences between the 2, given those examples?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by Bleeeeep
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

I think you are applying consciousness a little too broadly. I would say consciousness is the awareness that life, and only life, has, while what you are trying to ascribe is just awareness. I would say that all things that react are aware - that is to say, all of energy is aware to differing degrees.

I do not think all material is aware. I think consciousness and awareness are closely linked, if not the same thing. Both terms imply an entity, a being, an 'I', an identity, a focal point of fed back information, a central intelligence agency, usually taking form in the way of a brain.

So wouldnt it seem like you are applying the terms to broadly, when you say that everything that exists is aware? So you are aware right? And so a rock is aware like you are aware? You are saying you could have been stuck being a rock for millions of years, just being aware of your, rockiness?

Also, you touched upon fractals in your earlier post. What would you consider to be the cause of them? I have something in mind, but I'm just wondering what everyone else's take on them is. (question open to all)

edit on 8/11/2013 by Bleeeeep because: reworded

The cause of fractals in my opinion would be 'limits', laws, order. There is not infinite chaos, there is not supreme messiness, there are not an infinite different types of atoms or subatomic particles. So because of the existence of parameters and limits, concepts, potentials, and patterns and expressions are produced in more then one circumstance. There needs to be stability for other stable layers to built on that, and built on that, and they all share the common realm of an ultimate reality, and so they are all forced to work with what they are, the physical conditions they are found in, and the physical laws which fate them into their interactions.

But yes, fractals like a river, lightning bolt, blood vessels, tree roots, veins of leaves, is very interesting.

Im sure wiki has a lot of info on fractals.

An interesting way to conceive the difference between consciousness and awareness is to say or picture "I am" either inside or out of you head. Consciousness is the thing saying or making the picture "I am", awareness is the observer or listener of/to this info. When awareness is turned in towards itself, awareness of awareness, awareness watching awareness, consciousness and position and "I am" disappear like they were only a projection of awareness in the first.

this is the text from a series of PM exchanges relevant to this thread.

tgidkp:

....and you have just stated the reason why identification of long range correlation in what is otherwise only apparent noise is such an essential part of the definition of a chaotic system.

it looks like noise.
but it is not.
and, there is a reason.
= chaos.

imafungi:

But theres always a reason for why everything occurs. So a chaotic system is at its basis; unpredictable? Noise is unpredictable, there fore also chaotic, but what separates it from chaotic is; long term correlation, which means exactly what exactly?

But theres always a reason for why everything occurs.

tgidkp:

no, there is not. **see below

that is why it is called "random" or "noise". but as you had discussed with kashai, noise may not exist.

**it all depends on your level of description.

let us examine the digits of pi: there is no shorter description of the sequence of the digits, other than the explicit sequence itself. therefore, it is random. therefore, it is noise.

on the other hand, let us examine the sequence of digits which is generated by 22/7 (3.1408 < π < 3.1429). no doubt, the sequence of those digits is neverending and is likely also not repeating, two of the important characteristics of pi. however, those digits have a shorter description: 22/7.

i suppose you might consider the explicit solution of every digit of pi, one causing the next causing the next...., as a "reason for why it is occurring". but that is entirely different than saying that the reason for why the digits of 22/7 are occurring is 22/7. = long range correlation.

_______________

now... to confuse you further.

because it has a shorter description, 22/7 has a considerably lower entropy than pi.... regardless of the fact that their digit sequences are, for all intents and purposes, equally "noisy"....meaning that, for all intents and purposes, their entropy is .

so, which is it?
are their entropies equal? (a stable state.)
or is 22/7 lower? (an unstable state.)

the answer is that, although 22/7 has the appearance of an unstable state, its stablity is to pi.


summary: although 22/7 is more organized and thus "less stable" than (lower entropy than) pi, in actuality, its organized state endows it with a different kind of stability than pi will ever have.

this is the answer to why "Things" exist. (re: earlier thread)

"Things" confer stability upon an unstable state.
The Flock confers stability upon the gaggle.
The Flock is a chaotic eigenstate.
The Flock is consciousness.
____________

clear as mud?

imafungi:

So a chaotic system is at its basis; unpredictable?

no, youve got it backwards. chaos is predictable....but in a very "noisy" way.

"So a chaotic system is at its basis; unpredictable?"

Originally posted by tgidkp


no, youve got it backwards. chaos is predictable....but in a very "noisy" way.

So noise is not predictable? Is there anything thats not predictable, if we had all the information of a system and all the knowledge of physics?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
"So a chaotic system is at its basis; unpredictable?"

Originally posted by tgidkp


no, youve got it backwards. chaos is predictable....but in a very "noisy" way.

So noise is not predictable? Is there anything thats not predictable, if we had all the information of a system and all the knowledge of physics?

no. then everything would be predictable.

reply to post by tgidkp


So noise only exists because we are ignorant? Objectively there is no such thing as noise? Objectively what is the relationship between order, noise, and chaos, do they share reality equally, or is there more of one then the other at any given moment?

So there are a few concepts at play here, that all of my confusion and ignorance is having trouble with. I believe all we are discussing are the concepts of; Order, chaos, noise, entropy. Is there anything I have left out?

Do we know why any of these aspects exist or where they came from? We know order can turn into chaos and noise and entropy? We know chaos can turn into noise and order? Can noise turn into order? Can order turn into chaos that turns into order? Is there a real stable foundation of this all, or is everything eternally fated to be a continuous cycle of those concepts?

reply to post by ImaFungi

So noise only exists because we are ignorant?

this is the reasoning behind why i used the cropped Flock for the picture of noise.... because defining something as noise can depend entirely upon the *level of description*. but, oddly, there do appear to be examples of JUST noise. one of my recent favorites concerns the heartbeat.

now, we will expect the regular rhythm of the heartbeat to vary a tiny bit. the heartbeat, is not perfectly regular. if we measure this variance or drift, we will probably expect that it will sorta be all over the place...sometimes a little faster and sometimes a little slower...but basically random. random, in this case, is the expectation.

but it has been discovered that this variance has long-range correlations.... over the period of YEARS! but only in healthy individuals. it has also been discovered that in persons of poor physical condition, the variance of the heartbeat is identical to "brownian motion" or noise.



...cont....

Originally posted by tgidkp
i have a pet theory that the 'top' and the 'bottom' of the universe form a feedback loop.

didnt kashai mention mobius strip earlier?

As well as Ima's insights into Pi

When we discuss large scale structures such as the universe very relevant is that time as the forth dimensions is curved or curled up to some extent. Its like saying that of one could perceive reality at the quantum scale, ones ability to interact with the 4 dimension would be enhanced by the experience.

It would be like increasing ones comprehension of the Now.

The twist in the Mobius strip is an aspect of the space-time fabric. To that scale the matter of retrocausality comes into play. Which, suggests that in relation to the large scale structure of the Universe.

Retrocausality is also represented in ways we have yet to observe empirically.

A black hole has infinite density which in hypothesis can also result to matter reaching the speed of light.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by ImaFungi

...is everything eternally fated to be a continuous cycle of those concepts?

this is the central idea that i was working with in this post. showing a generic cycle of transitions, and attempting to define the conditions under which we will expect to find the spontaneous emergence of chaos (structured noise).

but, also in that thread, i have been liberal in the use of other concepts which are not constrained to your list of "Order, chaos, noise, entropy". much of what (i thought) we have been talking about are not concerning just these 4 inter-related conditions, but also WHY and HOW they happen, and the current methods of science to attempt to measure and quantify all of these phenomena.

i have tried to make each of these, with their pictures, as intuitively understandable as possible. i really thought you were 'on board' with the whole thing. i am not blaming you. its just that i had presupposed that these things were easy to understand. maybe they are not....

....but we can keep trying.

did you understand the pi 22/7 example? i get the feeling that didnt work for you.

reply to post by ImaFungi

Can order turn into chaos that turns into order?

Is something Chaotic ordered I mean is it possible to calculate the result of an explosion down the millimeter?

High rises are destroyed all the time employing such calculations.

What about the thought experiment of the Butterfly Effect that relates to the sensitive dependence upon initial conditions.

reply to post by tgidkp


So if I interpret this correctly, or I should say what I got from what I just read is that noise occurs, when there are 'rough spots/hidden variables/instabilities/irregularity' in an other wise stable predictable system.

An example or analogy I thought of would be; Imagine we gather 100 trumpet players ranging from beginners to masters. And one by one had each of them play the same note, an A for example. The note A is defined as A, perhaps as a regular heartbeat is defined as a specific frequency within perhaps a small standard deviation of irregularity or noise. There are reasons, and moment to moment causes which would lead a beginner trumpet player attempting to hold a note, to error, or create noise, just as there are reasons, a moment to moment history, regarding the construction and maintenance of the heart and body, which would lead to it having an irregular heart beat. It is just that there are so many variables, and inconsistencies, that there appears to be no coherent pattern to the frequency of the bad heart, because there is no stable pattern that is the source of the frequency of the heart beat.

The master trumpeter has years of experience, and knowledge of what he needs to do with his body and mouth to create and hold that perfect note, that perfect stable frequency. There is little irregularity with his physical actions, which result in little irregularity in the note he plays.

reply to post by tgidkp


I do get the pi example, but I think it is only semantics and tautology of the word random. The existence of Pi being exactly the number it is, to create the interesting phenomenon of circle it does, is more interesting to me, then whether this case can fit under the definition of the word random or not.


"i have been liberal in the use of other concepts which are not constrained to your list of "Order, chaos, noise, entropy". much of what (i thought) we have been talking about are not concerning just these 4 inter-related conditions, but also WHY and HOW they happen, and the current methods of science to attempt to measure and quantify all of these phenomena. "

What are the concepts you have used that do not fit under the concepts of "order, chaos, noise, entropy"?

And then you say, much of what you thought we have been talking about, do not have anything to do with those concepts, but what were are talking about is why and how those concepts happen...hmm. Can you please just refresh my memory, and tell me why and how, order, chaos, noise and entropy happen?

What do you think is the most primal and real expression of what exists? Is chaos primal and original, and order is only a function and result of chaos interacting? Or is order primal and original and chaos is a result of order interacting? Or are both equally primal, or is one more then the other? Or is something else entirely?

reply to post by ImaFungi

There are reasons, and moment to moment causes which would lead a beginner trumpet player attempting to hold a note, to error, or create noise, just as there are reasons, a moment to moment history, regarding the construction and maintenance of the heart and body, which would lead to it having an irregular heart beat. It is just that there are so many variables, and inconsistencies, that there appears to be no coherent pattern to the frequency of the bad heart, because there is no stable pattern that is the source of the frequency of the heart beat.

The inconsistencies are the argument between classical physics and quantum theory and Chaos theory. The issue of stability is in relation to the actual system that allows it.

Understanding the actual system would require an empirical evaluation of the population and we do not have that information.

A Temporal Nexus could very well exist in relation to the retrocasual nature of the Universe at large.

By that I mean a place where the only thing that really matters is the Now.