Resonance: Music, Quantum, and Chaos

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by tachyonmind

 

So just to get this straight; you think at first matter did not exist...then all the energy existed, and matter still did not exist, but then all the energy turned into matter, so then all the matter and energy existed...but, that matter is not energy? Yes matter comes from energy, owes its existence to energy, is created from and nothing but energy, is there anything other then semantical convenience that matter is not itself what energy is (in some hidden way), and that the only reason 'matter' exists as matter, is our perspective as matter and energy ourselves as well as our perspective in time? If we cut down a tree and build a table using no materials or tools but the tree itself, we may not call the table a tree, but thats all it is, a tree in a different form.

not at all, is all i can say.. energy and matter are not the same thing, and one does not create the other, they are both properties of the interactions of fields.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by tachyonmind


Not quite.. Take away the measurement of matter's energy and it's still matter.. If you take the yellow out of a banana is it still a banana?

So you are saying that there is no such thing as energy, energy does not objectively exist, energy is only when we take something solid and let something moving hit it? But when something is moving and we do not measure it, there is no such thing as energy involved or existing in that physical scenario?

yes, this is exactly what i am saying.. "energy" as a literal thing is not a thing, it is a measurable aspect or property of all things..

So an atom is matter, but what is an atom, quarks and electrons, quarks and electrons are matter, but what are they? 'ripples in a field'? Standing waves? Your analogy with the banana is disgrace to the great tool an analogy can be.

they are linguistic symbols representing mathematical equations, they are not literal "things".. the analogy was supposed to represent this.. a banana is not made of yellow, it has the property of yellow.. similarly, matter is not made of energy, energy is one measurable part of it..

Ok so taking the energy out of an atom, is the idea of absolute 0? And this is the purest form of matter then? Ever increase the energy of an atom and what will happen to it?

you can't take the energy out of an atom is my point.. that would be like taking the light out of the sun.. if you increase an atom's energy it will change form, but that does not make it made of energy..

Yup, gravity wells do indeed have boundaries, but that is not the same as saying gravity itself has a limit..

Does the earths area have a limit? Why yes it does, because it has a boundary. Boundary is a limit. Of course there are potentials for change, if something were to happen where the earth was given double its mass or velocity altered this would change its gravity well, or if a large meteor crashed into earth its area and boundary would be altered. But this is the tiniest fraction of change, and would still be maintained within its own limit and boundary of potential and likely change, that it is insignificant when compared to the vastness of the greater universe.

insignificant does not mean zero.

I cant believe you are continuing with your argument, dont you have some understanding of the scale of the solar system compared with the distance to the next closest cluster of solar system, and that compared with the next and next? And that scale and distance compared with the closest galaxy cluster? And then that distance compared with the next and next? All the while the space between these galaxies are increasing? You really believe that the gravitational displacement of earth (if we had detectors on whatever substance is responsible for gravity) trickles its way into near and distant galaxies?

yes, i do, because it is scientific fact.

I'm afraid you have lost me here.. Temporarily infinite? Spacially infinite? A force that is "absorbed" by surroung forces? None of these terms make any logical scientific sense..

Temporally infinite, as in, infinite in time. This is how gravity maybe be called infinite, in that if I were to ask you how long is gravity of earth occurring right now, you wouldnt be able to tell me with a finite
amount of time, because it is a continuous event.

oh i see, i misread temporally infinite as temporarily infinite.. this is exactly the point i was making, gravity is temporally infinite..

Spatially infinite is what I thought we were arguing about, that the gravity from earth takes up an infinite amount of space. The area of space and potentially the universe as a whole may be quantized, the extent of gravity would not be an infinite quantity, though it may always be in flux, the energetic extent of earths gravity does not take up all space.

gravity is a force, it is not "spacial" in any way, it takes up no space.. it is a behaviour of space..

A force that is absorbed by surrounding forces, for example you punching a brick wall.

the force of the punch is not absorbed by the force of the wall, it is dissipated throughout its structure.. the forces holding the wall together are not greatly influenced by my punch, they do not increase with the addition of my punch-energy, and punching a wall does not increase its force, which the term "absorb" implies..

Oh and if you read the bit after that it makes my point very clearly, shame you couldnt understand and comment on that.

which bit is that my friend? could you quote it so i know exactly what you're referencing?

Originally posted by tachyonmind


yes, this is exactly what i am saying.. "energy" as a literal thing is not a thing, it is a measurable aspect or property of all things..

but everything that exists and can potentially be measured is a literal thing. Things in themselves are only properties of things, and taking that all the way back, the only property of all things is energy. This is the conundrum. Energy is all that exists, matter is energy.

they are linguistic symbols representing mathematical equations, they are not literal "things".. the analogy was supposed to represent this.. a banana is not made of yellow, it has the property of yellow.. similarly, matter is not made of energy, energy is one measurable part of it..

What is matter at its most fundamental, what are the minimum requirements for matter, describe what matter is and how it exists? Can matter exist forever (for literal forever?) if not what happens to it?

you can't take the energy out of an atom is my point.. that would be like taking the light out of the sun.. if you increase an atom's energy it will change form, but that does not make it made of energy..

But it is made of energy. Because in the beginning all that existed was energy, and then that energy turned into atoms. Matter is only an aspect or property of energy.

gravity is a force, it is not "spacial" in anyway, it takes up no space.. it is a behaviour of space..

It takes up space, the force exists in a specific area of space. If you paused the universe right now and placed a grid over the entire spatial area of the universe, the extent of earths gravity would be seen to take up a relative to loosely specific area of local space.

the force of the punch is not absorbed by the force of the wall, it is dissipated throughout its structure.. the forces holding the wall together are not greatly influenced by my punch, they do not increase with the addition of my punch-energy, and punching a wall does not increase its force, which the term "absorb" implies..

When you punch a brick wall of say, one end of the great wall of china, is the energy of your punch dissipated throughout the entirety of the great wall?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by tachyonmind


yes, this is exactly what i am saying.. "energy" as a literal thing is not a thing, it is a measurable aspect or property of all things..

but everything that exists and can potentially be measured is a literal thing. Things in themselves are only properties of things, and taking that all the way back, the only property of all things is energy. This is the conundrum. Energy is all that exists, matter is energy.

the only property of all things is actually space, not energy.. energy is a property of space..

they are linguistic symbols representing mathematical equations, they are not literal "things".. the analogy was supposed to represent this.. a banana is not made of yellow, it has the property of yellow.. similarly, matter is not made of energy, energy is one measurable part of it..

What is matter at its most fundamental, what are the minimum requirements for matter, describe what matter is and how it exists? Can matter exist forever (for literal forever?) if not what happens to it?

at its most fundamental, matter is matter. that's it. it is only defined by us by its observable properties.. i can describe matter according to the measure of physics, or electromagnetism, or nuclear force, but each is still only one aspect of it.. we simply do not know what matter is truly made of, although strings are looking promising..

you can't take the energy out of an atom is my point.. that would be like taking the light out of the sun.. if you increase an atom's energy it will change form, but that does not make it made of energy..

But it is made of energy. Because in the beginning all that existed was energy, and then that energy turned into atoms. Matter is only an aspect or property of energy.

in the beginning there was a release of spacetime carrying energy from something, that's all we know.. energy doesn't have a definable meaning without a frame of reference; i.e. it acts upon/from something.. there is no such thing as "pure energy", only energy conversion from one state to another by force..

gravity is a force, it is not "spacial" in anyway, it takes up no space.. it is a behaviour of space..

It takes up space, the force exists in a specific area of space. If you paused the universe right now and placed a grid over the entire spatial area of the universe, the extent of earths gravity would be seen to take up a relative to loosely specific area of local space.

the force exists in all areas of space where there is matter, and there is matter in all space.. indeed if you paused the universe that is what you would see, but there is always more to the universe than can be seen..

the force of the punch is not absorbed by the force of the wall, it is dissipated throughout its structure.. the forces holding the wall together are not greatly influenced by my punch, they do not increase with the addition of my punch-energy, and punching a wall does not increase its force, which the term "absorb" implies..

When you punch a brick wall of say, one end of the great wall of china, is the energy of your punch dissipated throughout the entirety of the great wall?

yes, and down into the earth and out into the surrounding space.. it's observable/measurable dissipation is very short lived though..

it's like hitting a drum, the vibration travels through the medium of space and dissipates.. if you're far enough away you wont hear it, but the vibrations literally carry on forever..

Originally posted by tachyonmind


the only property of all things is actually space, not energy.. energy is a property of space..

The term space is meaningless without noting energy. The only thing that exists is energy, space without energy not only does not exist, but is meaningless to say because energy does exist.

How are you choosing to define space? That which is not matter or energy? That which is absolute nothingness, though can have a property of energy?

at its most fundamental, matter is matter. that's it. it is only defined by us by its observable properties.. i can describe matter according to the measure of physics, or electromagnetism, or nuclear force, but each is still only one aspect of it.. we simply do not know what matter is truly made of, although strings are looking promising..

And are strings matter? The problem I have is that matter is not fundamental, it is not eternal or primal, it had to be formed of some more fundamental aspect of reality, and if not formed out of matter, what then? Energy? So the way I see it is that matter is only a temporary manifestation/organization of energy, yes it is different from all other forms of energy, and that does justify us giving these things different names, but I, being aware of this, am only saying that they share a common foundation and inherentness and fundamentality.

yes, and down into the earth and out into the surrounding space.. it's observable/measurable dissipation is very short lived though..

it's like hitting a drum, the vibration travels through the medium of space and dissipates.. if you're far enough away you wont hear it, but the vibrations literally carry on forever..

I will infinitely disagree with your sentiments. I believe it is possible to contain a vibration and allow its energy to 'be used up' over the extent of an area, thus forcing it to be unable to travel any further like in the great wall of china example, and like in the reality of gravity.

The great wall of china is over 13,000 miles long. 0.4 ton delivered at a velocity of 8.9 meters/sec is a measurement of a heavyweight boxers punch. You are the physics professor, you yourself or have your students, find the weight of the average bricks used, and other variables, and figured out how far the energy from that punch would travel down the wall.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by tachyonmind


the only property of all things is actually space, not energy.. energy is a property of space..

The term space is meaningless without noting energy. The only thing that exists is energy, space without energy not only does not exist, but is meaningless to say because energy does exist.

not really bruv.. space is space, energy is energy.. energy exists in space, it is not what space is made of, it is the result of force acting on space..

How are you choosing to define space? That which is not matter or energy? That which is absolute nothingness, though can have a property of energy?

space is not nothingness, it is space. it is not the absence of energy, nor matter.. matter and energy exist in the medium of space, but space itself has structure that is not just "energy"..

at its most fundamental, matter is matter. that's it. it is only defined by us by its observable properties.. i can describe matter according to the measure of physics, or electromagnetism, or nuclear force, but each is still only one aspect of it.. we simply do not know what matter is truly made of, although strings are looking promising..

And are strings matter? The problem I have is that matter is not fundamental, it is not eternal or primal, it had to be formed of some more fundamental aspect of reality, and if not formed out of matter, what then? Energy? So the way I see it is that matter is only a temporary manifestation/organization of energy, yes it is different from all other forms of energy, and that does justify us giving these things different names, but I, being aware of this, am only saying that they share a common foundation and inherentness and fundamentality.

strings are not matter, they are the theoretical structure of matter.. they are strings of information, not energy.. matter is not a manifestation of energy, it is a container of energy held together by force..

yes, and down into the earth and out into the surrounding space.. it's observable/measurable dissipation is very short lived though..

it's like hitting a drum, the vibration travels through the medium of space and dissipates.. if you're far enough away you wont hear it, but the vibrations literally carry on forever..

I will infinitely disagree with your sentiments. I believe it is possible to contain a vibration and allow its energy to 'be used up' over the extent of an area, thus forcing it to be unable to travel any further like in the great wall of china example, and like in the reality of gravity.

The great wall of china is over 13,000 miles long. 0.4 ton delivered at a velocity of 8.9 meters/sec is a measurement of a heavyweight boxers punch. You are the physics professor, you yourself or have your students, find the weight of the average bricks used, and other variables, and figured out how far the energy from that punch would travel down the wall.

it would only measurably travel a short distance before it became undistinguished, yes.

Originally posted by tachyonmind



space is not nothingness, it is space. it is not the absence of energy, nor matter.. matter and energy exist in the medium of space, but space itself has structure that is not just "energy"..

If space is not nothingness it is energy, because everything that is not nothingness is energy. Space itself has structure that is not just energy, well what then is it? what is that structure made of? What is space made of, what is space fundamentally if not energy or matter (which is energy)?

strings are not matter, they are the theoretical structure of matter.. they are strings of information, not energy.. matter is not a manifestation of energy, it is a container of energy held together by force..

HA! This is your most vulnerable batch of replies yet. Strings are information, lol... Information does not exist in any manner, that is not energy, describe information without using energy, describe information that exists in some manner, that is not real and energetic. They are theoretic structures of matter, and they are information, so that means they are energy, and that means the structure of matter is made of energy, which means matter is made of energy and is energy, because there is nothing else to make matter but energy.

Earlier in our discussion you said force was energy, or energy was force. Now you say matter is not a manifestation of energy, it is a 'container of energy' held together by force...which is energy. hmm.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by tachyonmind



space is not nothingness, it is space. it is not the absence of energy, nor matter.. matter and energy exist in the medium of space, but space itself has structure that is not just "energy"..

If space is not nothingness it is energy, because everything that is not nothingness is energy. Space itself has structure that is not just energy, well what then is it? what is that structure made of? What is space made of, what is space fundamentally if not energy or matter (which is energy)?

you are confusing yourself my friend..

1. space is a measurable part of "stuff"..
2. matter is a measurable part of "solid stuff"..
3. energy is a measurable "interaction of solid stuff with other stuff"

strings are not matter, they are the theoretical structure of matter.. they are strings of information, not energy.. matter is not a manifestation of energy, it is a container of energy held together by force..

HA! This is your most vulnerable batch of replies yet. Strings are information, lol... Information does not exist in any manner, that is not energy, describe information without using energy, describe information that exists in some manner, that is not real and energetic. They are theoretic structures of matter, and they are information, so that means they are energy, and that means the structure of matter is made of energy, which means matter is made of energy and is energy, because there is nothing else to make matter but energy.

Earlier in our discussion you said force was energy, or energy was force. Now you say matter is not a manifestation of energy, it is a 'container of energy' held together by force...which is energy. hmm.

edit on 29-8-2013 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

i'm getting tired of this.. please forgive the emotional vengeance of this reply..

information is literally what everything is fundamentally f***ing made of..

Originally posted by tachyonmind

you are confusing yourself my friend..

1. space is a measurable part of "stuff"..
2. matter is a measurable part of "solid stuff"..
3. energy is a measurable "interaction of solid stuff with other stuff"

Earlier you said 'stuff' was made of space. You said at first all that fundamentally existed was space.

i'm getting tired of this.. please forgive the emotional vengeance of this reply..

information is literally what everything is fundamentally f***ing made of..

I dont mind at all, I actually rather enjoy it, im sorry if you are tired, but before you take a nice rest against this corner youve backed yourself into, i need to ask more questions.

Information is a quality of 'that which exists'... Yes they go hand in hand, 'something/stuff' existing, and so that stuff that exists qualifies as information. So its like 2 sides of the same coin. So I was trying to say if strings 'exist'... they must be made of energy. And you are saying, no they are not made of energy or they are not energy, they are information and made of information... Can you try to explain in what way a string, made of information might exist, and not be considered energy?

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by tachyonmind

you are confusing yourself my friend..

1. space is a measurable part of "stuff"..
2. matter is a measurable part of "solid stuff"..
3. energy is a measurable "interaction of solid stuff with other stuff"

Earlier you said 'stuff' was made of space. You said at first all that fundamentally existed was space.

yes, because at the most fundamental level of stuff we can measure, we find space.. not energy, but space..

i'm getting tired of this.. please forgive the emotional vengeance of this reply..

information is literally what everything is fundamentally f***ing made of..

I dont mind at all, I actually rather enjoy it, im sorry if you are tired, but before you take a nice rest against this corner youve backed yourself into, i need to ask more questions.

Information is a quality of 'that which exists'... Yes they go hand in hand, 'something/stuff' existing, and so that stuff that exists qualifies as information. So its like 2 sides of the same coin. So I was trying to say if strings 'exist'... they must be made of energy. And you are saying, no they are not made of energy or they are not energy, they are information and made of information... Can you try to explain in what way a string, made of information might exist, and not be considered energy?

energy is made of information.. it is the measurable quality of information being informative..

why will you not accept that energy is not by definition what anything is actually made of?

Originally posted by tachyonmind

yes, because at the most fundamental level of stuff we can measure, we find space.. not energy, but space..

So this means all that really exists is space? What then is space?

energy is made of information.. it is the measurable quality of information being informative..

why will you not accept that energy is not by definition what anything is actually made of?

Information is made of energy, anything that can possibly exist is energy. Information is a word used to allude to the fact that the energy that exists, the stuff that exists, is not one static mass of motionless,detailess, differentless substance; so 'information' is the idea that there are distinguishable qualities of the quantities of stuff that exist.

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by tachyonmind

yes, because at the most fundamental level of stuff we can measure, we find space.. not energy, but space..

So this means all that really exists is space? What then is space?

not quite.. all that measurably exists is space, there's more than that there, but that's all we can currently measure.. at least until quantum mechanics and string theory find common ground..

energy is made of information.. it is the measurable quality of information being informative..

why will you not accept that energy is not by definition what anything is actually made of?

Information is made of energy, anything that can possibly exist is energy.

false. anything that exists has the quality of being energetic, but is not defined by energy itself..

Information is a word used to allude to the fact that the energy that exists, the stuff that exists, is not one static mass of motionless,detailess, differentless substance; so 'information' is the idea that there are distinguishable qualities of the quantities of stuff that exist.

exactly. information is what the universe is composed of. any "thing" is only defined by the values of "stuff" it contains, of which "energy" is only one measurable value.. mass is another measurable value.. so is any electromagnetic effect this thing might "have".. it is not defined by its energy, it is defined by its nature..

en·er·gy
/ˈenərjē/

Noun
1. The strength and vitality required for sustained physical or mental activity.
2. A feeling of possessing such strength and vitality.

na·ture
/ˈnāCHər/

Noun
1. The forces and processes that produce and control all the phenomena of the material world: the laws of nature.
2. The physical force regarded as causing and regulating these phenomena: "it is impossible to change the laws of nature".

reply to post by tachyonmind


Energy is eternal, some of it has formed into matter for some time, matter is energy, just in a 'more material' state. 'Energy' is the fundamental foundation of all that exists, matter is an emergent property and capability resulting from certain interactions of energies.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by tachyonmind

 

Energy is eternal, some of it has formed into matter for some time, matter is energy, just in a 'more material' state. 'Energy' is the fundamental foundation of all that exists, matter is an emergent property and capability resulting from certain interactions of energies.

i'm afraid you are not quite right.. energy is an observable effect of matter, it is not matter itself..

the "fundamental foundation of all that exists" is information..

matter is an emergent property and capability resulting from the interactions of energetic fields of information..

matter is a container of energy.. energy is matter's fuel.. a car is not made of petrol, but without it, it's just a box with wheels..

reply to post by tachyonmind


Describe how 'energetic fields of information' exist? When I claim that, all that exists is energy, I am not denying that the energy that exists, by nature of existing, is information. Information cannot exist without energy existing, energy existing is information existing.

What is the difference between matter and energy? What about matter, the electron for example, is not energy?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by tachyonmind

 

Describe how 'energetic fields of information' exist? When I claim that, all that exists is energy, I am not denying that the energy that exists, by nature of existing, is information. Information cannot exist without energy existing, energy existing is information existing.

well, yes.. but you can say that about any definable entities of information.. matter can not exist without energy, energy can not exist without the processing of information.. we can not observe information directly, we can only see what information "does".. in the form of matter, it is a solid mass of energetic particles.. in the form of energy, information is what those particles do to and with each other..

in other words, energy is a verb, matter is a noun, and information is an adjective, all describing the same "stuff".

What is the difference between matter and energy? What about matter, the electron for example, is not energy?

edit on 30-8-2013 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

the electron is a particle which has the energetic property of negative charge.. it is negatively charged but it is not negative charge itself..

reply to post by tachyonmind


Energy is information, information is energy, if energy doesnt exist information doesnt exist, if energy exists, that energy is informational in that it is quality and quantity and takes up area. All matter is energy, not all energy is matter.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by tachyonmind

 

Energy is information, information is energy, if energy doesnt exist information doesnt exist, if energy exists, that energy is informational in that it is quality and quantity and takes up area. All matter is energy, not all energy is matter.

all matter is described by energetic information, but it is not the description of what it actually is.

reply to post by tachyonmind


It actually is energy that has interacted with other nodes of energy, surrounded by interacting other types of energy, that establishes bits of energy to behave certain ways when interacting with bits of energy, that create a stable system of energy called matter, this matter can be broken down back into its more base forms of energy, or, into what it really is. I agree that the word matter exists to call an atom matter, but an atom is made of energies, and an atom is energy, it is just a very specific orientation of energy, and the fact it is relatively and contextually stable over time, gives it the justification to be thought of as a particulate of material. A rock for example, a rock is so stable and tough and hard, how can you call a rock energy! when i think of energy i think of wavy stuff and flowy and immaterial. Well, isnt it thought that all matter is really wavy, flowy, immaterial stuff?,,,energy.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by tachyonmind

 

It actually is energy that has interacted with other nodes of energy, surrounded by interacting other types of energy, that establishes bits of energy to behave certain ways when interacting with bits of energy, that create a stable system of energy called matter, this matter can be broken down back into its more base forms of energy, or, into what it really is. I agree that the word matter exists to call an atom matter, but an atom is made of energies, and an atom is energy, it is just a very specific orientation of energy, and the fact it is relatively and contextually stable over time, gives it the justification to be thought of as a particulate of material. A rock for example, a rock is so stable and tough and hard, how can you call a rock energy! when i think of energy i think of wavy stuff and flowy and immaterial. Well, isnt it thought that all matter is really wavy, flowy, immaterial stuff?,,,energy.

well put!

what i was trying to make clear was if you are making a scientific distinction between matter and energy, then matter is not made of energy.. they are separate states of information, represented by different equations..
it's all theoretical anyway..

xD