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Any account of the historical Jesus has to be more argument than fact, but some arguments are sounder than others. Aslan wants to “purge” the scriptural accounts of “their literary and theological flourishes and forge a far more accurate picture of the Jesus of history.” The picture he uncovers is very different from the now-common view of an unworldly pacifist preaching a creed of universal love and forgiveness. Instead, Aslan’s Jesus is a provincial peasant turned roving preacher and insurrectionist, a “revolutionary Jewish nationalist” calling for the expulsion of Roman occupiers and the overthrow of a wealthy and corrupt Jewish priestly caste. Furthermore, once this overthrow was achieved, Jesus probably expected to become king.
The most fascinating aspect of “Zealot” is its portrait of the political and social climate of Jesus’ day, 70 years or so after the conquest of Judea by Rome, an event that ended a century of Jewish self-rule. The Romans replaced the last in a series of Jewish client-kings with a Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, when Jesus was in his 20s, but even Pilate ruled by working closely with the aristocratic priestly families that controlled the Temple in Jerusalem and thereby all of Jewish politics. This elite reaped great wealth from the sacrifices the faithful were required to offer in the Temple, as well as taxes and tributes. In the provinces, noble families used the tax and loan systems to seize and consolidate the lands of subsistence farmers. They also began to adopt the customs of the pagan occupiers.
The dispossessed migrated to cities in search of work or roamed the countryside causing trouble. Some of them, called “bandits” by the Romans, robbed the wealthy (who were often seen as impious) and rallied the poor and discontented. They invariably offered religious justifications for their activities; many claimed to be the messiah, the prophesied figure who would eject the foreigners, raise up the oppressed, punish the venal rich and restore the Jews to supremacy in their promised land. Although Jesus himself wasn’t such a “bandit,” he definitely fit the well-known type of apocalyptic Jewish holy man, so commonplace in the countryside that the Greek philosopher Celsus wrote a parody version, a wild-eyed character running around shouting, “I am God, or the servant of God, or a divine spirit. But I am coming, for the world is already in the throes of destruction. And you will soon see me coming with the power of heaven.”
Originally posted by charles1952
So by getting rid of the things he doesn't like, calling them “their literary and theological flourishes," he gets a different story, "a far more accurate picture of the Jesus of history.”
One, how does he know which are the flourishes and which are the essential facts? He makes it up, getting rid of the things that don't fit.
Two, how is he able to judge that his version is more authentic than anyone else's? Well, it must be more authentic, because what's left is the part he likes.
I'm sorry to be so brusque, but unless there's some significant information that I'm missing, the review seems to damage his credibility beyond repair.
I'd love to be told about that information.
The historical Jesus’ call for justice is stirring, but the xenophobic and theocratic society he allegedly advocated is not — in fact, it sounds a lot like what the worst of (so-called) Christians seek today. I may not be a Christian myself, but even I can see that Jesus the Christ stands for something better than that.
Although a new emphasis on historical Jesus research has emerged, Gerd Theissen and Dagmar Winter state that the third Quest has seen a fragmentation of the portraits of Jesus in which no unified picture of Jesus can be attained at all, and the differences among the portraits constructed by scholars involved in the third Quest are even greater than those in the second Quest. James H. Charlesworth also states that the scholarly consensus on the historical portrait of Jesus that seemed develop up to the 1980s has since "...collapsed into a chaos of opinions." Echoing the same scenario, Ben Witherington states that "there are now as many portraits of the historical Jesus as there are scholarly painters".
Thus although the reconstruction of portraits of the historical Jesus along with his life story has been the subject of wide ranging debate among modern scholars, no consensus on a portrait of Jesus has emerged. Amy-Jill Levine states that "no single picture of Jesus has convinced all, or even most scholars" and that all portraits of Jesus are subject to criticism by some group of scholars. However Levine adds that "there is a consensus of sorts on the basic outline of Jesus' life" in that most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, debated Jewish authorities on the subject of God, performed some healings, taught in parables, gathered followers, and was crucified by Roman prefect Pontius Pilate who reigned 26-36 AD.
Historians of early Christianity begin to appear like jigsaw puzzle solvers who are presented with twenty-seven pieces of a thousand piece puzzle and find that only six or seven of the pieces even fit together. The reasonable thing to do would be to put those pieces together, make some guess about what that part of the puzzle might be about, and then modestly decline over-speculation about the pieces that don't fit. These solvers, in contrast, throw away the central piece, the Acts of the Apostles, that enables any connections to be made at all. Then they insist on bringing in pieces from other puzzles. Finally, they take this jumble of pieces, sketch an outline of what the history ought to look like (on the basis of some universal puzzle pattern), and then proceed to reshape these pieces until they fit in that pattern. (Johnson, Luke Timothy, The Real Jesus, pg 95)
Originally posted by MrInquisitive
As a non-believer, I see a historical search for the real Jesus as being a good thing for Christianity
For historians who don't subscribe to subscribe to Christianity in particular, how else would you expect them to go about investigating the historical Jesus? Ot would seem that studying the culture and politics of that time and region is the best way to go. It is known from one ancient Greek writer (his escape me now), who wrote a parody on the matter, that there were many self-professed holy men in the region back then and many religious sects vying for followers. It stands to reason that Jesus was likely the most successful one of these fellows at the time. That the Romans apparently crucified him, and saved crucifixion for political prisoners of one sort or another, suggests that he was preaching something not copacetic to Roman imperialism/colonialism in the Holy Lands.
Celsus (Epicurean, 2nd Century A.D., writes in his True Word, a critique of Christianity): "I could continue along these lines, suggesting a good deal about the affairs of Jesus' life that does not appear in your own records. Indeed, what I know to be the case and what the disciples tell are two very different stories... [for example] the nonsensical idea that Jesus foresaw everything that was to happen to him (an obvious attempt to conceal the humiliating facts)."
"The men who fabricated this geneaology [of Jesus] were insistent on the point that Jesus was descended from the first man and from the king of the Jews [David]. The poor carpenter's wife seems not to have known she had such a distinguished bunch of ancestors."
"What an absurdity! Clearly the christians have used the myths of Danae and the Melanippe, or of the Auge and the Antiope in fabricating the story of Jesus' virgin birth."
"After all, the old myths of the greeks that attribute a divine birth to Perseus, Amphion, Aeacus and Minos are equally good evidence of their wondrous works on behalf of mankind- and are certainly no less lacking in plausibility than the stories of your followers."
For historians who don't subscribe to subscribe to Christianity in particular, how else would you expect them to go about investigating the historical Jesus? Ot would seem that studying the culture and politics of that time and region is the best way to go. It is known from one ancient Greek writer (his escape me now), who wrote a parody on the matter, that there were many self-professed holy men in the region back then and many religious sects vying for followers. It stands to reason that Jesus was likely the most successful one of these fellows at the time. That the Romans apparently crucified him, and saved crucifixion for political prisoners of one sort or another, suggests that he was preaching something not copacetic to Roman imperialism/colonialism in the Holy Lands. (Emphasis added)
Celsus (Epicurean, 2nd Century A.D., writes in his True Word, a critique of Christianity): "I could continue along these lines, suggesting a good deal about the affairs of Jesus' life that does not appear in your own records. Indeed, what I know to be the case and what the disciples tell are two very different stories... [for example] the nonsensical idea that Jesus foresaw everything that was to happen to him (an obvious attempt to conceal the humiliating facts)." (Emphasis added)
Agreed.
And the whole point of that is that there were apparently a lot of would-be messiahs back then.
I mostly agree with this. My only question is about "historically rigorous." I wonder if you meant "scientifically rigorous?" As far as I understand it, historians have developed their own set of rules to determine the accuracy of events and written records. Very few things can be proven with 100% certainty, at least for events occuring many years ago. We cannot prove for example that Edgar A. Poe wrote The Raven. It's possible that he stole the story from another writer, then killed him to keep it quiet. We still accept it, even when it's not absolutely "proved."
I mention Jesus being crucified because that is the general story regarding him. To be thoroughly historically rigorous, I -- nor anyone else, I believe -- cannot state with certainty that the historical figure Jesus was indeed crucified (at least as far as I know). I'm not claiming that this is indeed the case, but just pointing out that it is a possibility.
Perhaps, but the focus on Mary and the geneology makes me think he had the right one.
If Jesus was indeed a common name back then, perhaps he was even getting his Jesuses mixed up.
I'm not sure everyone agrees on the scantiness of the evidence. Sorry to be repetitious, but under the rules historians follow, there is quite a bit of evidence supporting the historicity of Jesus and some major events of His life.
Obviously I am just posing possibilities here. Everyone agrees the historical evidence is scant. It's not very likely that the facts of the matter will ever be determined for sure, but it is worthwhile to consider that the actual historical Jesus figure might not be exactly as portrayed in the New Testament.
I hope I'm not surprising you, but I don't give a fig for His symbolism. Throw it all away if you want, it doesn't matter to me. The "symbolism" attached to His life are symbols that we've seen in the work of philosophers and spiritual people throughout history. His "symbolism" was nothing new and could be recreated from many other sources. It's Jesus that matters.
Not that this should undercut his symbolism or such,
I love historical context. It helps in understanding, but context is something surrounding acts and people. It doesn't change what happened, just gives us a fuller picture.
but rather just provides historical context for this religious figure.
I think the timing here is important. Christians were persecuted while they were young and struggling. They survived that, built a structure of churches, fought heresies, established a hierarchy, then Constantine converted. "Hijacked and corrupted?" That may be the subject of another thread, but it certainly hasn't been established to the satisfaction of historians.
Something I find quite ironic is that if Jesus was indeed a person who challenged imperial Rome and the ruling upper class, his religion was hijacked/co-opted by these very forces, i.e. it became the state religion of the later Roman empire and the establishment -- not unlike how various corporations have tried to co-opt environmentalism in advertising the greenness of their products.
And I think you're finding the very basis of the question. Are we asking if there was a person named Jesus that was referred to in the New Testament, and many other writings? Not, whether He did everything that was attributed to Him, but whether He actually existed.
Was the purpose of Celsus argument to argue against the historical evidence of Jesus or to discredit the mythology of his being the "Christ".
But that would not be an attack on the historicity of Jesus, the question of whether he existed, etc., but whether the stories about Him are true.
If it was me, the first thing I would attack, if debating the historicity of Jesus, would be the virgin birth, which is exactly what Celsus did.
Those are interesting questions, of course. Shall we go into them? Or, is that another topic?
Did Celsus question the supposed census that required Mary and Joseph to travel to Bethlehem? Did he question the star that the 3 wise men followed. Did he question the title of Jesus of Nazareth, when Nazareth didn't yet exist?
Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by windword
Dear windword,
I really like (talking?) with you, glad you're around.
Was the purpose of Celsus argument to argue against the historical evidence of Jesus or to discredit the mythology of his being the "Christ".
And I think you're finding the very basis of the question. Are we asking if there was a person named Jesus that was referred to in the New Testament, and many other writings? Not, whether He did everything that was attributed to Him, but whether He actually existed.
Because the experts on the question, the historians, have basically resolved that issue, we can go on to try to determine who He was and what He did.
My one great difficulty is with those who insist, over and over, that there never was a Jesus, that He was just a myth. I can mention the historians, and the other writers closer to Him in time,but that seems to have no effect. I don't know how to discuss the question with them.
But that would not be an attack on the historicity of Jesus, the question of whether he existed, etc., but whether the stories about Him are true.
If it was me, the first thing I would attack, if debating the historicity of Jesus, would be the virgin birth, which is exactly what Celsus did.
Those are interesting questions, of course. Shall we go into them? Or, is that another topic?
Did Celsus question the supposed census that required Mary and Joseph to travel to Bethlehem? Did he question the star that the 3 wise men followed. Did he question the title of Jesus of Nazareth, when Nazareth didn't yet exist?
www.evidenceforchristianity.org...
The fact is that there is plenty of evidence that there was Jewish occupation of the Galilean location known as Nazareth in the first century. The criticism above is based on rather old archaeological evidence which is now outdated. Recently, an arab merchant discovered the remains of a Roman bath house on the site of Nazareth from the first century AD.
See www.guardian.co.uk...
for more on this recent discovery. Professor Carsten Peter Thiede, a scholar in archeology and religion who spent 20 years excavating the area of Qumran and the Dead Sea with the Antiquities Authority, describes the place in his most recent book "The Cosmopolitan World of Jesus" (2005), in which he analyses the historical implications of the discovery of the bath house. Prof Thiede says in his book: “Returning to the discovery of the Roman baths in Nazareth, we realize that such an installation, should it really turn out to be Roman and to have been available to non-Roman inhabitants like Mary, Joseph and Jesus, would merely underline what we could have gathered from the sources anyway. The only real surprise to many may be the conclusion that Nazareth was anything but a nondescript village with a handful of poor Jews.”
Besides, the remains of a first-century synagogue in Nazareth were also found recently. www.uhl.ac...