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Islam is an ideology, not a religion!

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posted on Nov, 8 2004 @ 10:50 AM
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Islam is not a religion. It is an ideology cloaked by a blanket of perceived religion in order to conceal its true nature: political/social controls and power through a strict ideology.

Followers and believers of Islam call it a "religion of peace", but that only applies to believers and followers of Islam. It is a belief system which is intolerant of any other belief system. Only followers of Islam have a right to exist and are the only one's guaranteed a place in heaven. I can think of other ideologies that are equally intolerant. White supremists/separatists and Hitler's Third Reich come to mind.

Teachings of Islam (Qu'ran and Hadith) are very specific and worded with very little room for interpretation. Non-believers shall be put to death and it is the responsibiltiy of all Muslims to enforce the will of Allah; as there is only one "true" religion and only one "true" god. Those who are believers of other religions/gods are considered by Islam as idolators and therefore a scourge of the earth.

There are many (scholars, politicians, the President, and so-called religion "experts" to name a few) who say Islamic extremists have "hijacked" an otherwise peaceful religion to justify their brutality. I submit, however, that anyone who takes the time to read the passages from the Qu'ran will note that these "extremists" are only following the specific instructions contained therein.

Does this mean that all Muslims are evil barbarians? Absolutely not!! Most Muslims are peace-loving people who have no desire to exact the kind of brutality that a relative minority have. But I ask this question: Are the majority of Muslims peace-loving because of Islam or in spite of Islam? It is ironic that those Muslims whom we percieve as "peaceful" are considered by strict followers as idolators because they don't follow Islam as it is written. It is equally ironic that only a small handful of those "peaceful Muslims" have spoken out against these "extremists" who are hijacking their religion. In fact, most who do speak out are non-Muslims whose knowledge of Islam is questionable.

So why do I say that Islam is an ideology and not a religion? The dictionary defines religion as the following:
1.
a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b) A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

On the surface it would seem that Islam is a religion. But because Islam is enforced through the Sharia (Islamic Law) it becomes more of a means to control the masses through fear and intimidation. This, in my view, makes it a political ideology. I think this is an important difference and one that at some point our government is going to have to resolve in order to win the war on terror. If the Islamic paradigm can be shifted from one of religion to one of an ideology, then it no longer can become a "religious war". It is simply a battle against a brutal ideology, much like the fight against Communism.

I can, if you like, provide links for references. But I challenge anyone interested to do your own research and educate yourself. Part of the winning strategy against "terror" is to learn the hearts and minds of those who wish to do us harm. While the government is responsible for our security, it is foolish to believe that we as individuals have no role in the global war on terror.

[Edited on 8-11-2004 by Freedom_for_sum]

[Edited on 8-11-2004 by Freedom_for_sum]




posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 06:33 PM
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erm...i think that the reason why no one is responding to your schpeal is that at the moment, there is a surplus of intolerant and bigoted sentiment on these boards. we really don't need any more. thankyou.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 07:05 PM
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Have you read the Koran, General Zapata?

- Attero



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:12 PM
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What about the crusades then?

Roman Catholicism is one of the worst instolerant religion of all... Conquer and convert! Try to make them fidels!

No offence, but open your eyes please...



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:37 PM
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From my Penguin Classics "The Koran" trans. by N.J. Dawood

2:168
"The unbelievers are like beasts which, call out to them as one may, can hear nothing but a shout and a cry. Deaf, dumb, and blind, they understand nothing."

2:216
"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. God knows, but you know not."

2:226
"Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women. God is mighty and wise."

3:19
"The only true faith in God's sight is Islam. Those to whom the Scriptures were given disagreed among themselves, through insolence, only after knowledge had been vouchsafed them. He that denies God's revelations should know that God is swift and reckoning."

3:26
"Let not believers make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful - he that does this has nothing to hope for from God - except in self-defense. God admonishes you to fear Him: for to God shall all return."

4:34
"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Surely God is high, supreme."

4:103
"Seek out the enemy relentlessly. If you have suffered, they too have suffered: but you at least hope to receive from God what they cannot hope for. God is all-knowing and wise."

4:136
"He has instructed you in the Book that when you heard God's revelations being denied or ridiculed you must not sit and listen to them until they engage in other talk, or else you shall yourselves become like them. God will surely gather in Hell the hypocrites and the unbelievers all."

5:51
"Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. THey are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers."

6:26
"When they come to argue with you the unbelievers say: 'This is nothing but fables of the ancients.' They forbid it and distance themselves from it. They ruin none but themselves, though they do not perceive it."

Hrmm...?



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:42 PM
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All religions are idealogies.. And Islam just seems like a religion to unite the middle-east against the rest of the world. I don't quite remember anything in the Old Testament or New Testament telling believers to be as cruel to different groups of people as the Koran does...

Either way, organized religion is evil, and all those who follow it are fools. So i'm biased.

- Attero



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 08:58 PM
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I must be biased as well then... You "remember" (obvisously between quotes) the roman catholicism being treated as a sect nowadays? The difference between a religion and a sect is the number of adepts.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by SpookyVince
I must be biased as well then... You "remember" (obvisously between quotes) the roman catholicism being treated as a sect nowadays? The difference between a religion and a sect is the number of adepts.


I don't make that distinction. Anybody that is a follower of organized religion is being lead along. Organized religon is dangerous because groups of people holding the same values can do more damage than a religious individualist. And frankly it's absurd to believe in something because it is written in a "sacred" document.

- Attero



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 09:35 PM
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OK, so Islam is not a religion because it is not peaceful, based on passages of the Quran?

Hold on there, have you ever picked up a Bible?

Go read Ezekial or Sirach, I'd like to see how "peaceful" you think Christianity is- and yes, it does in fact tell them to be cruel to other religions. But of course, they decide to not teach that part in youth group bible study. If you are incapable of picking it up and being shocked for yourself, I'd be happy to include several of my *favorite* passages.

And it is in fact a religious war. Nobody's hurting the Arabs who go to mass.



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 09:40 PM
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Originally posted by Scat
OK, so Islam is not a religion because it is not peaceful, based on passages of the Quran?

Hold on there, have you ever picked up a Bible?

Go read Ezekial or Sirach, I'd like to see how "peaceful" you think Christianity is- and yes, it does in fact tell them to be cruel to other religions. But of course, they decide to not teach that part in youth group bible study. If you are incapable of picking it up and being shocked for yourself, I'd be happy to include several of my *favorite* passages.

And it is in fact a religious war. Nobody's hurting the Arabs who go to mass.


I said all religions are idealogies. And the passages I quoted from the Koran only show that it is an example of yet another religion meant to divide the people. Yes i've picked up a bible, I was Christian, and I had to read parts of the bible this year in college for Western Civ I. I haven't read as far as the chapters you have told me to read. And frankly I believe you. As i've been trying to get my point across that organized religions are evil and only meant to divide the people and spawn hatred. Don't think i'm siding with christianity.

- Attero

Edit: It is likely that most of your response is to the original post, but I acted like you responded to me since the creator of the thread hasn't posted any responses...

[edit on 4-12-2004 by Attero Auctorita]



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 09:57 PM
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Indeed, I seemed heated in my post, but that's because this is a passionate subject for me. I agree, all religions are ideologies, and I do not like any of them. In my opinion, religions are not created to spawn hatred, but it is the poepl who follow them blindly who cause hatred. Like someone once said, the only problem with Christianity is the Christians.

Attero- you seem like someone who would enjoy Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason. You should check it out, if you haven't already



posted on Dec, 4 2004 @ 11:33 PM
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I will check it out, thanks.

- Attero



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by Attero Auctorita
Have you read the Koran, General Zapata?

- Attero


yes, in original arabic, not one of these lame-ass translations.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by General Zapata
yes, in original arabic, not one of these lame-ass translations.


Are the translations wrong?

- Attero



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by General Zapata
erm...i think that the reason why no one is responding to your schpeal is that at the moment, there is a surplus of intolerant and bigoted sentiment on these boards. we really don't need any more. thankyou.


General Zapata;

The ONLY thing I am intolerant of is intolerance itself. So called Islamic "extremists" have made their wishes perfectly clear: A single belief system of Islam under Islamic law (Sharia). The Kuran is clear: Those who don't follow Islam are Idolators--and should be killed.

Can you prove to me otherwise?



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by SpookyVince
What about the crusades then?

Roman Catholicism is one of the worst instolerant religion of all... Conquer and convert! Try to make them fidels!

No offence, but open your eyes please...


Spooky;

You are correct about the Crusades. But can you show me in the bible where it instructs followers to kill non-believers? BTW, I am not Christain--I am agnostic and against anything the polarizes us as humans; which religion does.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by Scat
OK, so Islam is not a religion because it is not peaceful, based on passages of the Quran?

Hold on there, have you ever picked up a Bible?

Go read Ezekial or Sirach, I'd like to see how "peaceful" you think Christianity is- and yes, it does in fact tell them to be cruel to other religions. But of course, they decide to not teach that part in youth group bible study. If you are incapable of picking it up and being shocked for yourself, I'd be happy to include several of my *favorite* passages.

And it is in fact a religious war. Nobody's hurting the Arabs who go to mass.


Scat;

I would like it if you can provide passages in the Bible where it clearly instructs followers to enslave and/or kill non-followers.



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum

Originally posted by SpookyVince
What about the crusades then?

Roman Catholicism is one of the worst instolerant religion of all... Conquer and convert! Try to make them fidels!

No offence, but open your eyes please...


Spooky;

You are correct about the Crusades. But can you show me in the bible where it instructs followers to kill non-believers? BTW, I am not Christain--I am agnostic and against anything the polarizes us as humans; which religion does.


It is (probably, I didn't read the bible, not entirely at least) not quoted. Not even suggested. This is only misinterpretation of those texts, but people do it. And not only christians: muslims (on a certain part at least) interpret the phrase (something like) "fight the infidels" from the Coran as a call for a fight. It is intended rather as a moral fight, as islam is (supposed...) to be a pacific religion. Most people use it as an excuse, and a sad one, to create wars and terrorism...

Religion, in all its forms, was, is, and will always be, only a way to control and limit populace, to force them to some limits and some acts, in fear of the wrath of the god or gods. All religions are ideology, and very sadly, any ideology such as a religion, that closes the doors to the differences of the others (i.e. the non believers, or actually believers of something else) is a danger to the unity of humanity. I must admit though, that at some points in history, the people needed something to believe in, and an omnipotent god was obviously ideal. The popes understood that well...



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by Attero Auctorita

Originally posted by General Zapata
yes, in original arabic, not one of these lame-ass translations.


Are the translations wrong?

- Attero


not wrong, just taken in wrong context. Strong imagery and wording has always been a part of arabic public speaking and, therefore, the writings in the Qur'an. i will say now, that I am not muslim, nor do I believe the teachings of the Qur'an any more than any other religion that claims to have the right answers. I am just pointing out that the strong language is NOT to be taken literally. Arabic has always been a language of strong expressions, but very little of them are to be taken literally. For example, a common expression of love used in the regional dialect of lebanon is 'tu'kabreeni ya sanadi!' which literally translates to 'i want you to bury me, my darling!'. It implies that the love is so strong, that it doesn't matter if you kill me right now and bury me, I would still love you. However, this phrase is used all the time, between mothers and daughters, between lovers, even between friends. It is actually a surprisingly common phrase. So, what I am saying is that what you have posted is a series of disjointed quotations, with no real understanding of their context in the arabic language.

[edit on 5-12-2004 by General Zapata]



posted on Dec, 5 2004 @ 04:03 PM
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Just like the Bible, the Quran is something which must be taken within the context in which it was written. The Old Testament is a very harsh book in some places - and it was written in very harsh times. You don't see Christians killing their neighbors because Leviticus told them to - and generally, the Old Testament is not seen as changing the generally-accepted opinion that Christianity is a peaceful religion. So why should particularly violent verses in the Quran make Islam a violent religion?

What I regret is that most of the judgements levelled at Islam usually focus on Quran verses without providing the context, or on modern-value judgements applied to situations far removed in time (for example, people saying Mohammed was a pedophile because he married a 13 year-old when he was in his fifties... which was fairly common in the Middle Ages).

So my question is: have people taken a good, objective look at Islam and concluded that it's a violent religion, or do they have a negative opinion of Islam from the start and are looking for the facts to fit their opinion?




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