A question for Byrd or any other well versed in Mdu-Ntr

I am having a little bit of a problem I am trying to find out if An,Ani,Anu an ethnic group identified by Petrie and Amélineau　are the same as Intiu-seti,keeping in mind I and A are interchangeable like for instance Imn is the same as Amen, Imnhotep = Amenhotep that sometimes the name goes from regional or ethnic like fore instance for Nahasi who were a group of people to the south of kemet but turned up as personal names in Kemet itself one an official of queen Hatsheput, the other a 11th dyn King Mentuhotep III and the last a minor king of the delta ruling or in league with the Hyksos , I have came across Ani which was a personal name of the priest who wrote the papyrus of Ani and I am inclined to link Innu the Kemeitc name for the city of Heliopolis with the Intiu seti the ethnic group am I off base??..to others lets keep the whole Anunnaki thing out for a second.

reply to post by Spider879



Ta-Seti was the name of the Kingdom of the Anu people with it's capital at Qustul, i wrote a few things on them here;


www.abovetopsecret.com...


but you know that, so maybe i mistake your question...?


Intiu refers to the aboriginal inhabitants of the Nile valley during the pre-Dynastic period, was one of reverance, and translates as 'pillar people'... apparantly

Innu then named after its pillars, pylons..translating as 'place of pillars'

Originally posted by Kantzveldt
reply to post by Spider879

 

Ta-Seti was the name of the Kingdom of the Anu people with it's capital at Qustul, i wrote a few things on them here;


www.abovetopsecret.com...


but you know that, so maybe i mistake your question...?


Intiu refers to the aboriginal inhabitants of the Nile valley during the pre-Dynastic period, was one of reverance, and translates as 'pillar people'... apparantly

Innu then named after its pillars, pylons..translating as 'place of pillars'

edit on 25-4-2013 by Kantzveldt because: (no reason given)

Thanks Kantzveldt I'll check your link in a couple of hrs been a long nite, I also want to know if you trust Petrie and Amélineau but don't be in a hurry to answer that question until I read your link...nuff thanx

reply to post by Kantzveldt

Ok I remember the thread good work btw, the reason I made this thread was I visited another site where a blogger cast stones at Petrie

The above translation from the web page is wrong on all counts, although the name of the individual in the figure standing at left comes close. His name (shaded in red) is transliterated as tri-nTr. It can be rendered as Terinetjer (as one example) and can be translated as “One who worships the gods.” This is his name, not a title. The translation of the glyphs I’ve shaded green are still the subject of dispute but the current transliteration is nxn.w (MacArthur 2010: 136), which can be rendered as Nekhenw. It is believed that this is the name of an estate of which Terinetjer may have been in charge (ibid); more on that presently. The translation from the web page breaks the next set of glyphs into two lines: “of the god Seth / Net Annu-u: ‘of the Cities of the Annu People’s.’” This is incorrect. In my own image this is the area I’ve color-coded blue, and it’s simply a cadrat or square of glyphs all of which belong together when read. The correct translation is Menhet (transliterated mnH[.t]), and is the name of a town. It’s location is not known today but it was probably the nearest settlement of size to the estate called nxn.w (Nekhenw). The word “Anu” or “Aunu” or other variations does not appear anywhere on this plaque. The web page to which I’ve been referring (see link in opening paragraph) quotes Petrie from his The Making of Egypt: ancientneareast.org...

This is based off Émile Amélineau's work but I have been told in conversations with others to proceed with caution.
Basically the blogger is casting doubts on the roll the Anu played in pre-dynastic and early Kemet I am searching for more recent info independent of Petrie whom he called a dynastic race theorist and Émile Amélineau but everything leads back to them.

reply to post by Spider879


ok mate
i think iv worked out what your asking

this elongated head dudes... google the term "Shemsu-Hor"

let me know how you get on

peace


BTW

Annu means pillar...

Originally posted by thePharaoh
reply to post by Spider879

 

ok mate
i think iv worked out what your asking

this elongated head dudes... google the term "Shemsu-Hor"

let me know how you get on

peace




BTW

Annu means pillar...

edit on 26-4-2013 by thePharaoh because: (no reason given)

Thanks Pharaoh, Kantzveldt already lead me in the right direction I was just looking for alternatives to Petrie based on a critique in the link above.

reply to post by Spider879


do you realise that by the end of his career Petrie turned his attention to the bible, religion as well as mythic history.

if petrie is discussing the "annu naki" and the "shemsu hor"... then its after his career as an egyptian excavater.

which confuses people about how literal he is being

dont take this work as you would his record keeping and excavating reports.. which were impeccable

this work is more about assumption....though i admit his assumptions are more relevant than some

yes there were elitest egyptians...but they were simply southerners amongst a population of "gypsys"
hence the dna difference



though these are my opinions..i think its relevat to you and your journey

peace

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Kantzveldt

This is based off Émile Amélineau's work but I have been told in conversations with others to proceed with caution.
Basically the blogger is casting doubts on the roll the Anu played in pre-dynastic and early Kemet I am searching for more recent info independent of Petrie whom he called a dynastic race theorist and Émile Amélineau but everything leads back to them.

where did you get this image from
iv looked through some of emile amelimeau s work ut i couldnt find these terms

the temple of denderrah is not written in this new age text...(even though it was rebuilt by a "ptolymug")
am i missing something

Originally posted by thePharaoh
reply to post by Spider879

 

do you realise that by the end of his career Petrie turned his attention to the bible, religion as well as mythic history.

if petrie is discussing the "annu naki" and the "shemsu hor"... then its after his career as an egyptian excavater.

which confuses people about how literal he is being

dont take this work as you would his record keeping and excavating reports.. which were impeccable

this work is more about assumption....though i admit his assumptions are more relevant than some

yes there were elitest egyptians...but they were simply southerners amongst a population of "gypsys"
hence the dna difference



though these are my opinions..i think its relevat to you and your journey

peace

edit on 27-4-2013 by thePharaoh because: (no reason given)

I just found that out that's why I began to question his work,and the criticizism of his work by this site ancientneareast.org...

The place where I obtain the image is from here
www.egyptsearch.com...
Warning used to be a great site but have since became un modereted infested by trolls of all types although good people still posts there.the individual who supplied the image goes by the name of Wally a Berkeley prof. who no longer post there.

Sorry...didn't notice this thread (best way is to U2U me... I occasionally miss a day here)

Originally posted by Spider879
reply to post by Kantzveldt

 

Ok I remember the thread good work btw, the reason I made this thread was I visited another site where a blogger cast stones at Petrie

The above translation from the web page is wrong on all counts, although the name of the individual in the figure standing at left comes close. His name (shaded in red) is transliterated as tri-nTr. It can be rendered as Terinetjer (as one example) and can be translated as “One who worships the gods.” This is his name, not a title. The translation of the glyphs I’ve shaded green are still the subject of dispute but the current transliteration is nxn.w (MacArthur 2010: 136), which can be rendered as Nekhenw

I would agree with this translation based on my books on hieroglyphs.

This is incorrect. In my own image this is the area I’ve color-coded blue, and it’s simply a cadrat or square of glyphs all of which belong together when read. The correct translation is Menhet (transliterated mnH[.t]), and is the name of a town. It’s location is not known today but it was probably the nearest settlement of size to the estate called nxn.w (Nekhenw). The word “Anu” or “Aunu” or other variations does not appear anywhere on this plaque. The web page to which I’ve been referring (see link in opening paragraph) quotes Petrie from his The Making of Egypt: ancientneareast.org...

I actually agree with this. There's no designation of "people"... remember Petrie was working off a much smaller database of information and there were a lot of hieroglyphs that were not translated yet.

I have to run off to teach... will come back later and comment.

reply to post by Byrd

Thanks for the input from you Kantzveldt and The Pharaoh with what I now know about the Iunu I am on the trail of the Mentu-Setet and the possible ethnic link if any with the Mentu named kings of the 11th dyn considering the name of the God mntw or Montu a nomadic war god which is a good fit for that ethnic group's living habit and propensity for war

I know this sounds counter intuitive given that they are among the nine bows, traditional enemies of Kemet,so how could they gave rise to that dynasty if indeed they are connected and considered legitimate and not foreign rulers,also I want to folks to get into the habit of addressing these various ethinic groups with their proper name and not lump and dump them as Nubians the Kemetians never did although they over lapped politically sometimes under emergent Kush example the El Kab inscription which included even Punt on a massive raid on Kemet.

Went back to your original post...

Originally posted by Spider879
I am inclined to link Innu the Kemeitc name for the city of Heliopolis with the Intiu seti the ethnic group am I off base??

I don't see the connection or the logic. Innu was at the mouth of the Nile river and is one of the oldest cities in Egypt. It was built by the people who lived there (Mediterranean types.) I have not found many reliable-looking references for "Intiu seti" but this phrase implies the people were considered the provenance of the deity, Set (god of deserts and chaos.) Innu is not in the desert.

People tend to try and link things because of the "way they're spelled" -- which is one of the worst ways to do that. We actually have no real record of HOW they pronounced the name (it could be as different as the way Americans pronounce "knock", "naught", "knackwurst", and "naughty".) While conquerers do often keep the name of a city that they overrun, they don't often establish new cities and name them for the enemies of their people.

Think about it: you live in Japan (according to your sigfile)... do you think the ancient Japanese would have named any city after people who lived in Korea?

The second point is that "Intiu/Antiu" is NOT the name the people had for themselves... it's what the Egyptians called them after the world for "pillar" appeared in the Egyptian language.

As to the Montu connection, Thebes was a southern city (about 300 miles from Hieropolis) and sort of in the middle part of the Egyptian empire. The pharaohs were named after the deity, of course (a good page on him here), whose qualities changed over time (I believe the link to the bull cults is a more recent link than the one to the Moon.)

At the time that the Old Kingdom collapsed, the cities were well established into provincial capitals and each had its own "ruling families" with a long lineage -- inscriptions indicate that these families were the ones where the pharaohs came from.

Satisfied my curiosity after a lot of Google-fu.

The picture is "Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen
ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Anen (TT 120), MMA graphic expedition 1931 Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: facsimile" and someone's cut the group apart and pasted the 3 dark-skinned figures next to each other.

So, the "nine bows" of the 1300's (LONG after Innu was founded) are groups they called "Kefti, Irem, Naharin, Kush, Sen-gar, Shasu, Mentu-nu-setet, Tjehenu and the Iuntiu-seti. The three you are interested in wear garb from the 1300's (BC) and are apparently groups from Kush. I don't know what they called themselves.

You can tell there's problems with your source... the Bedouin do not come from Nubia.

reply to post by Byrd

People tend to try and link things because of the "way they're spelled" -- which is one of the worst ways to do that. We actually have no real record of HOW they pronounced the name (it could be as different as the way Americans pronounce "knock", "naught", "knackwurst", and "naughty".) While conquerers do often keep the name of a city that they overrun, they don't often establish new cities and name them for the enemies of their people. Think about it: you live in Japan (according to your sigfile)... do you think the ancient Japanese would have named any city after people who lived in Korea?

Your point about making links based on similarity of spelling and sound is on point,but my reasoning was before there was a unified Kemet various ethnic groups were moving up and down the Nile, settlements of the Pan grave people were to be found far to the north in Saqqara but as you know they originated in the desert south of Kemet.

While I can't think of any current Japanese cities named from a People in Korea,it is well known that the formal national dress of Japan today is of Korean origin and the Silla Kingdom of Korea but things can get testy over here because of nationalist pride

In 2008, Japan gave foreign archaeologists limited access to the site, but without allowing any excavation. As National Geographic wrote, Japan "has kept access to the tombs restricted, prompting rumors that officials fear excavation would reveal bloodline links between the "pure" imperial family and Korea
news.nationalgeographic.com...

I remember when this was big news..

You can tell there's problems with your source... the Bedouin do not come from Nubia.

The person who did the redux image was not making a connection between a modern people living in the Sinai and the Mentu Setet for him Bedouin is just a way of living ie the nomadic desert folk as you can see from the Shasu above.

Originally posted by Spider879
Your point about making links based on similarity of spelling and sound is on point,but my reasoning was before there was a unified Kemet various ethnic groups were moving up and down the Nile, settlements of the Pan grave people were to be found far to the north in Saqqara but as you know they originated in the desert south of Kemet.

Hadn't heard of these people before (I swear, after I finish THIS degree I'm going to go for a Masters' in Egyptology at Southern Methodist University (really, I am.)) but found a museum's page on them for those of you who (like me) never heard of them before.

The statement on that page about the attempts to repel migration indicate that the people weren't welcomed.

While I can't think of any current Japanese cities named from a People in Korea,it is well known that the formal national dress of Japan today is of Korean origin and the Silla Kingdom of Korea but things can get testy over here because of nationalist pride

The same thing was true in Egypt of that era.

Language is a complicated thing, and when you're working with cultures that did not leave written records, it's hard to say how many "borrow words" crept into other languages and at that point, language is a bad resource to use for assessing cultural impact (the borrowing could have gone the other way -- from Egyptian to Nubian, for instance.)

In any case, the inscription on Tut's tomb furniture indicates the names used by the Egyptians at that time period but don't tell us that much about the people. A similar analogy is that here in America, we identify a group of Native Americans as the "Sioux" ... but the "Sioux" are actually THREE separate groups and one of them is named "Isáŋyathi". Similarly, we don't know (at least, *I* don't know) how many peoples the Egyptians were lumping under those terms... only that they stylistically represented them as Black and as wearing a stylized form of dress.

The person who did the redux image was not making a connection between a modern people living in the Sinai and the Mentu Setet for him Bedouin is just a way of living ie the nomadic desert folk as you can see from the Shasu above.

I see a problem there, but you've addressed it: translations and identifications that may not be accurate and up-to-date.

That said, there's probably all sorts of artifacts that are shelved away in museums collections and if you were able to travel to the area and look in museum collections, you might find all sorts of things that were collected a century or more ago and were mislabled (because people didn't know enough about hieroglyphs or other cultures at the time.) A lot of intriguing research has been done in museum collections.

And when I start that degree in Egyptology (my internal debate is whether my next Masters' will be in paleontology, biology, or Egyptology -- yes, a real debate), the Rosicrucian Museum in California is going to be one of the places that I go haunt!

reply to post by Byrd

Hadn't heard of these people before (I swear, after I finish THIS degree I'm going to go for a Masters' in Egyptology at Southern Methodist University (really, I am.)) but found a museum's page on them for those of you who (like me) never heard of them before. The statement on that page about the attempts to repel migration indicate that the people weren't welcomed.

First off I wish you well in your educational pursuits I too am in need of self improvement never stop learning.

That's partially true they were in Kemet as far back as the Old Kingdom under Sneferu but were not migrating en-mass at the time,however in quite short order they quickly became guarantors of the throne and added their members into certain royal families perhaps you might recognized them under the more familiar term Madjayi they were never pictured among the Nine Bows like their cousins the Kush who would engulf them eventually but dependable allies especially during the reconquest of Kemet following the Hyksos rule.

Amenemhet I, 1st King (1991-1962 B.C.) Details of the state of the country come from the 'Prophecy of Neferti' , a text said to date from the Old Kingdom which relates how a king 'Ameny' would come to save the country! Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he will join the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns) Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt

I mentioned the El-Kab inscription earlier

The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack. The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: ]“Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw. . .” It describes the decisive role played by “the might of the great one, Nekhbet”, the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as “strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire”, while the “chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame”. The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Ku#e tombs: they were war trophies. Mr Davies said: “That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It’s the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings’ power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures.”
www.dailytimes.com.pk...

Under Ahmose and Khmose of the 17th dyn they played no small a role in expelling the Hyksos and pay back their cousins the Kush for their alliance with the Hyksos for it was under the Hyksos a Nahasi king ruled part of the delta.
The relationship between Kmt and these polities to the south was extremely complex If you can forgive the comparison with the family relationships in the series Game Of Thrones or the British royals who were actually Germans but they conducted two brutal wars with each other, and even had name changed from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor.while the Brit. commoners themselves ultimately and anciently came from various Germanic tribes Celtic tribes.

To return to your original interesting question:

I am having a little bit of a problem I am trying to find out if An,Ani,Anu an ethnic group identified by Petrie and Amélineau　are the same as Intiu-seti,

I think it's not likely (or, rather, something that could never be proven.)

* the name given by the Egyptians was not what they called themselves.
* their language may have contained words which Egyptians could not pronounce (a "shibboleth)
* the Egyptians likely lumped a number of people under this label of Intiu-seti (since "seti" implies they are under the rulership of the god of the desert, Set... and that includes a lot of different people.

The An/Ani/Anu might have been part of a group called the Intiu-seti -- but they could have been lumped under some other name, too... or some regional group of the Anu might have been called Intiu-seti but Anu settled somewhere else were called something else.

I'm not sure (since they didn't write) how their origins could be correctly established. In order to make the connection, you need to know what trade exchanges might have gone on, and you would need to find personal names in the Anu language (IF it could be identified without them having a written language) which are approximated in the Egyptian language and are clearly different from names in other groups (like the Nubian pharaohs.) Skeletal forensics are not going to be any help other than establishing the difference between someone whose ancestors are Mediterranean types as opposed to African types.

The paintings and inscriptions are of little help unless they can be matched with activities (written or other evidence) from the An/Ani/Anu people (I was thinking of battlefield remains (spears, armor, etc, at a known battle site with a known date))

I did find some information that I'm not entirely sure about (would need looking into to determine if this is correct)

The ORU or KUMONI (also known as the ONU or ANU people) they were an aquatic based culture, settling the banks of rivers and watersides. They were indigenous to the Nile Valley and Lake Chad regions before moving south (an exhaustive comparison between the ancient religious and cultural system of the twin Nile-Valley civilisations of Egypt and Sudan, plus language studies enables us to conclude that the ANU or ONU were ethnically the same as the ORU.
source: www.earthrights.net...

In any case, being indigenous to Lake Chad would mean they had little influence on the northern end of Egypt.

Googling for "Kumoni" and "Oru" gives no good information.

So... do you have any other sources? This is an interesting question.

Once i did a bit of research on the net for the Anu/Ainu People.
The same Plaque from the temple at Abydos piqued my interest.

You can refer to the thread at
www.abovetopsecret.com...

with additional reference at

wysinger.homestead.com...


Byrd's own post in the thread says

Originally posted by Byrd

According to Katherine Griffiths-Greenberg, the Anu are a group of enemies mentioned in something called the "Execration Texts." They spelled the name, "apr'u-anw". One Egyptologist, Heras (1953), theorized that the Egyptian pharaonic feast called the "Feast of Striking down the Anu" refers to the Anu invaders from Syria. They suggested that the Anu were originally from India.

Blackmarketeer, the paper you cited makes sense from a geographic view.

The Plaque with Tera-Neter of the Ainu/Anu is at The Oriental Institute, Chicago

Plaque (Plaque)

Classification/Broad: Plaque

Classification/Specific: Plaque (Plaque)

Material/Broad: SILICIOUS

Material/Specific: FAIENCE

Measurements: 134X95X17 MM

Description: GLAZED FRIT, RECT, NEGROID FIGURE FACING RT., HOLDING STAFF. INS ASCRIBES THE FIG. TO BE CHIEF TERA-NETER, DEOVTED TO GOD, OF THE FORTRESS OF THE ANU IN HEMEN.

Region: Northern Upper Egypt

Country: EGYPT

Place/site: Abydos

Place/other: --

Locus: TEMPLE, GRAVE M69

Period: EARLY DYNASTIC

Date: DYNASTY 1 SEMERKHET

Culture: --

Dynasty: DYNASTY 1 SEMERKHET

King/Ruler: --

Inscription Language: Egyptian

Inscription Type: --

Inscription Subject: --

Inscription Sequence Number: 1

Script: Egyptian Hieroglyphs

Dialect: --

On Display: Egyptian Gallery

Registration Number: E 7911

Accession Number: 68

Field Number: --

Link

and any other data i could get on the ainu/anu turns out to be Afrocentrist, for example, try the matter at this Link, by Wayne Chandler.

* the name given by the Egyptians was not what they called themselves. * their language may have contained words which Egyptians could not pronounce (a "shibboleth) * the Egyptians likely lumped a number of people under this label of Intiu-seti (since "seti" implies they are under the rulership of the god of the desert, Set... and that includes a lot of different people. The An/Ani/Anu might have been part of a group called the Intiu-seti -- but they could have been lumped under some other name, too... or some regional group of the Anu might have been called Intiu-seti but Anu settled somewhere else were called something else.

reply to post by Byrd


It is just as likely that the Anu were self named there is in fact an ethnic group that lived on the upper Nile in Ethiopia and Sudan goes by that name they are a mix agricultural cattle keeping people. and yes it would not be surprising that some of these group would be under the protection of the God Set
note one of the first nation state on the Nile that carried the royal paraphernalia later found in early Kemet was named Ta-Seti labeled by a bow.

The Anuak , also known as the Anyuak, Agnwak and Anywaa, are a Nilotic ethnic group inhabiting parts of East Africa. They are primarily found in villages situated along the banks and rivers of southeastern South Sudan as well as southwestern Ethiopia, especially the Gambela Region. Group members number between 300,000 to 350,000 people worldwide.
en.wikipedia.org...

Thanks for the link interesting read so far it kind of back-up my other thread about cultural links between the Nile and the Niger www.abovetopsecret.com...

Skeletal forensics are not going to be any help other than establishing the difference between someone whose ancestors are Mediterranean types as opposed to African types.

We should be careful about the above the so-called Mediterranean type is varied as much as the African in head shape,nasal indices and even hair form, Nile Valley Africans including Egyptians have super tropical body however Egypt is not especially tropical as opposed to some Western Africans who just have tropical body plans despite their environment both are different than folks with cold adopted bodies,the area where cold and tropical adopted folks met and mingled is the area around the Levant and Turkey see Chris Ereth for language.

Bio-anthropologist Shomarka Keita. i'll only post this two vids but check out the rest really good stuff.
In any case I have long since abandoned race typology Ramses III is a fine example his hair seems lanky his nose hooked.although it may have been broken due to extracting the brain and other soft tissue during mummification but his body is tropically adopted and his dna is E1b1b and E1b1a .

Ramesses III According to a genetic study in December 2012, Ramesses III, second Pharaoh of the Twentieth Dynasty and considered to be the last great New Kingdom king to wield any substantial authority over Egypt, belonged to Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1a, mainly found in West Africa, Central Africa, Southwest Africa and Southeast Africa.[35] Additional genetic testing suggest that the remains may indeed belong to y-dna haplogroup E1b1b which split from E1b1a about 40-50 thousand years ago, and tends to be common IN the Levant, Northern Africa, and the Rift valley region in modern times
en.wikipedia.org...

Recommend visiting the link lots of interesting dna info on other famous folks including one Adolf Hitler and Napoleon Bonaparte.

reply to post by coredrill

any other data i could get on the ainu/anu turns out to be Afrocentrist, for example, try the matter at this Link, by Wayne Chandler.

Thanks for the links you were also hot on the trail of the Anu, perhaps one day I'll create a thread on what a real Afro-centrist is supposed be verses what an Afro-eccentrist is. the two are not one in the same however eyeball anthropology which the first wave of Afrocentrist believed mainly because it was believed by everyone else "mainstream" have to be abandon because while there are woolly haired broad featured black people all over the globe both ancient and modern doesn't mean they are all Africans, population genetics will serve them better.