Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Openeye

 

Fair enough.

Question: If intelligent design by a Creative Agency could be shown, would the atheist be open or receptive to that information or knowledge, or, at that point would they be forced, by their own preconceptions and prejudice or bias, to dig into a hole of ignorance?

I'm entirely open to evidence of creative agency.
If, for instance, there was unambiguous confirming evidence such as a coded message in our DNA that gave strong indication that at the very least our evolution as humans may have been artificially assisted by some unknown technological agency past, it'd be really interesting.

Such knowledge, though astounding, would not, however, be license to start claiming everything is created by some willful agency.
Such knowledge would have a minimum and maximum level of speculation confidence until further data could narrow confidences down to hypothetical, or even theory.

That all, however, is WHAT-IF.
Anyone can play the What-if game.
Children play what-if.

What if we evolved with 4 arms like some Hindu gods are depicted?
What if animals could talk like we do?
What if dinosaurs never went extinct?
What if we couldn't see color?
What if we were incapable of hate and anger?

Anyone can play the what-if game.
What if is an early childhood developmental exercise of imagination. It otherwise has no relevance except for positing data inclusion against hypothetical results.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Druscilla

 

Based on the argument being put forward so far it would appear that atheism could very well be the easiest and therefore the least courageous position to take where all the religious POV's represent man's attempt to really understand the cosmos and to come to grips with his true place in it.

How so?
Religion is the "Easy button"

If you don't understand something, claim "god" is responsible.

The more difficult path is turning your back on chariots pulling the sun across the sky, or lighting resulting from some invisible hoohah's wrath, and finding out what's actually happening.

The central question religion grips with white knuckles, tooth and nail is the DEATH question.
Scientific enlightenment is answering all the other questions that use to be the providence of the easy 'god' answer, so, now, it's just ambiguously hopeful wishing fantasy over creation myths, and keeping a death grip on DEATH.

People may not be scared of thunder and lightning any more, but, the big D still gets them all quivery, so, religion will milk the unanswerable question of Death for all it can.

... at least until we can roll back mortality to the equivalent of the common cold.

reply to post by Druscilla

You keep on referring to childishness. I find that interesting...

When you have the time, please watch the video I posted in the OP, which speaks to that accusation.

Btw I intend to put forward the argument and the information supportive of intelligent design by a Creative Agency and one which given the framework and timespan involved could be nothing other than the initiating intelligent agency from a first/last cause in the creation "beginning with the end in mind" so to speak.

I ask for your patience however. Thank you.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Openeye

 

Ah, smart!

That's certainly the easiest position to take that's for sure.

I will be offering evidence however, just don't have the time right not to put my presentation together.

I could never let things just be as they are when I was a kid I HAD to know precisely how and why no matter what it takes, so I can't console myself with the agnostic viewpoint as much as the lazy part of me would like to.

Offering evidence to prove the existence of god, is akin to citing Hans Christian Anderson to prove the existence of mermaids, so be careful going down that road.

Personally I think that being a religious person is taking the lazy way. The fact is that we don't know the origins of the universe or of life and probably never will. But I refuse to believe that some desert dweller thousands of years ago did.

I don't need a book nor the threat of an invisible if absent deity to love and do no harm.
Man created god in his own image.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Well I for one eagerly await your evidence.

Again I am not opposed to the idea of a deity, in fact I think it would be most interesting.

Rofl, "THE FINAL DEBATE!"

How is this even a debate? Furthermore, where do you get the notion that there is more evidence to support the existence of "god" than there to disprove its existence? The idea of god, or rather gods, is NONRATIONAL; not irrational, but NONRATIONAL. It cannot be rationalized; if you are religious you are insane on a socially acceptable level. Self delusion and deception are necessities to establish faith.

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy

You make a lot of assumptions there DestroyDestroyDestroy, about my state of mind and the premise of my argument.

Don't be so quick off the draw, you might end up looking foolish.

reply to post by HumansEh

You're jumping the gun as well.

It's amazing how much those ancients DID know and in regards to the life of the human being within the frame of the natural world, they appear to have had much greater awareness than we do today. From what I can tall they seemed to resonate in harmony with the creation and in making their own inquiry discovered that it (the creation) was principal centered and oriented with pointers pointing to the loftiest aspects and ideals of man ie: that virtue generates happiness etc. (see Proverbs for example).

My own fear with the rise of atheism isn't the loss of God who's still God no matter what anyone thinks and believes, but the loss of the ancient Wisdom Teaching and Knowledge in favor of a purely secular and materialist monist worldview in a meaningless and purposeless existence i.e.: a deathful way of life.

That said, the very best of the best of what religious ideas and forms have to offer, isn't a morality play of light and dark, good and evil, should and shouldn't i.e.: control and manipulation, no they are about transcendence and the ascent of man into the domain of the Gods, as if fulfilling a great destiny and calling. From every inquiry I've made as a philosopher, this is the right interpretation of man's place in the grand scheme of things, not as a thing or an it, but as something very intrinsic to the whole creative process of life itself.

Hahahaha! Another catchy title, NewAgeMan - even though it does not contain the word SEX! The final debate! Hmmm.... but then what?

Anyway, my two cents worth ...

Each person should determine if the Divine exists - apart from believing anything. Beliefs are an obstruction to an open consideration, and in fact are the exact opposite of being open. But to determine what is Truth, one has to totally immerse oneself in reality.

What is actually true about this whole matter of our appearance? Do we actually exist as separate egos within these body-minds? Why are so many of us so certain that God exists or does not exist when we haven't even determined if we exist as separate egoic beings?

This core presumption must be fully inspected because upon that core ego-idea, we project all kinds of other ideas - e.g., that everyone is separate, that we do not arise in indivisible prior unity or Light, and for many, that there is a separate Creator-God, etc., etc.

But few people want to actually consider if they exist in the manner we have all been duped into believing we exist. Is the ego-I we hold onto constantly, actually real? Or is it just a moment to moment activity we constantly do in response to arising conditions in order to feel a sense of separate identity? Fully inspect your entire life - waking, dreaming, sleeping. What is the only constant? Awareness or Consciousness - it never changes, never ages. Find this out and then see if the Divine exists or not.

Why does the Divine always get envisioned as Creator-God, a great and powerful Other, anyway? It is our collective egos that create and support these myths of God as the Great Other/Creator. These myths of a Creator-God are universal because the separate ego-I myth is universal.

But what about the Divine as Unconditional indivisible conscious Light in which all arises, but no causal relationship exists between the Unconditional and the Conditional? In other words, the Divine does not create the conditional realms, but the Divine is also not separate from all arising - all conditions arise as modifications of that same Unconditional Conscious Light.

And of course, this determination could definitely change one's conclusion about how one lives! Priorities will very likely change, belief systems will crumble, great energy will be released, etc.

But again, this must be discovered and is not a matter of believing in it.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I would say, for my part anyway, that the answer to what evidence could be presented is quite obvious, so obvious in fact, that I cant believe you have never heard the answer, or that you dont really understand the reason.

Where is he then? Where has he been for over 2000 years? Why is it that when men have gotten no evidence of any type at all in over 2000 years, that he can not grace us with his presence, and show us he is real?

Oh ya, he covered that, quite conveniently also I might add, your not allowed to ask for proof, nor shall you believe in somthing that does, because he already taught man his lesson, like any lesson survives even 3 generations, we are already forgetting about what happened back then, people deny it and others actually believe them.

No, god would have known he woild need to show himself every once in awhile, just to keepnus in line.

It is more likely that the gods and the angels are either constructs of imagination, or they were aliens that selectively bred humans to make us men instead of animals, and gave us religion to keep us in line until we were grown up enough to police ourselves properly.

I mean what parent wants their kids to truly stay a child forever? No they want to see them mature, ajd then go on and continue the cycle, and raise children of their own.

We are meant one day to join the gods, and help spread life and consciousness, throughout all the cosmos, along with the many others.

There are many gods, they just arent gods, but technologically and evolutionarily advanced beyond our understanding.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by Druscilla

 

Based on the argument being put forward so far it would appear that atheism could very well be the easiest and therefore the least courageous position to take where all the religious POV's represent man's attempt to really understand the cosmos and to come to grips with his true place in it.

There is no logic to the atheist argueing a non-existance of god. It has no concept of it; by its own definition states a point of view, nothing further needed unless something about their argument is fundimentally flawed and they are aware of it (questioning a problematic). Why they drag believers into their abyss is curious; fly on the wall time, an Agnostics vs Atheists debate would however be very interesting, call it "The Next To Last Final Debate". Venue? Mt. Olympus.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by HumansEh

 

You're jumping the gun as well.

It's amazing how much those ancients DID know and in regards to the life of the human being within the frame of the natural world, they appear to have had much greater awareness than we do today. From what I can tall they seemed to resonate in harmony with the creation and in making their own inquiry discovered that it (the creation) was principal centered and oriented with pointers pointing to the loftiest aspects and ideals of man ie: that virtue generates happiness etc. (see Proverbs for example).

My own fear with the rise of atheism isn't the loss of God who's still God no matter what anyone thinks and believes, but the loss of the ancient Wisdom Teaching and Knowledge in favor of a purely secular and materialist monist worldview in a meaningless and purposeless existence i.e.: a deathful way of life.

edit on 15-3-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

When you say 'the ancients' to whom do you refer?
The Greeks? The Jews? The Egyptians? The Chinese? The Native Americans? The Aztec? The Celt?
All these societies had religion to shape their societies, but to say that they were all in touch with a divine truth is a bit of a stretch.
You fear the rise of atheism, and the loss of ancient wisdom?
Well simply keep it alive yourself,

Place a handicapped child on a mountain to die,
Stone suspected adulteresses to death,
Burn some witches alive.
Oh and don't forget when you capture some fellow from the neighbouring town to cut his beating heart out and hurl his corpse down some steps which will ensure that the sun rises (never fails)

Ah ancient wisdom!
Never as wise as we like to remember.
And regarding atheism embodying a materialistic worldview,


Yup, all religious people never chase money, evangelists give it all away, and the vatican is broke, luckily the jews hate money and religion is never used to accumulate wealth from 'believers'.

You have a simplistic view of atheism op, which is exactly what religious people promote, fear is the lifeblood of religion, embodied in the gods they create.

Originally posted by HumansEh

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by HumansEh

 

You're jumping the gun as well.

It's amazing how much those ancients DID know and in regards to the life of the human being within the frame of the natural world, they appear to have had much greater awareness than we do today. From what I can tall they seemed to resonate in harmony with the creation and in making their own inquiry discovered that it (the creation) was principal centered and oriented with pointers pointing to the loftiest aspects and ideals of man ie: that virtue generates happiness etc. (see Proverbs for example).

My own fear with the rise of atheism isn't the loss of God who's still God no matter what anyone thinks and believes, but the loss of the ancient Wisdom Teaching and Knowledge in favor of a purely secular and materialist monist worldview in a meaningless and purposeless existence i.e.: a deathful way of life.

edit on 15-3-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

When you say 'the ancients' to whom do you refer?
The Greeks? The Jews? The Egyptians? The Chinese? The Native Americans? The Aztec? The Celt?
All these societies had religion to shape their societies, but to say that they were all in touch with a divine truth is a bit of a stretch.
You fear the rise of atheism, and the loss of ancient wisdom?
Well simply keep it alive yourself,

Place a handicapped child on a mountain to die,
Stone suspected adulteresses to death,
Burn some witches alive.
Oh and don't forget when you capture some fellow from the neighbouring town to cut his beating heart out and hurl his corpse down some steps which will ensure that the sun rises (never fails)

Ah ancient wisdom!
Never as wise as we like to remember.
And regarding atheism embodying a materialistic worldview,

Yup, all religious people never chase money, evangelists give it all away, and the vatican is broke, luckily the jews hate money and religion is never used to accumulate wealth from 'believers'.

You have a simplistic view of atheism op, which is exactly what religious people promote, fear is the lifeblood of religion, embodied in the gods they create.

Ya what he said...oh and druscilla, shes so hot in her avi when she is talking down to people that are holding a losing position. Sorry, but it is true.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
...oh and druscilla, shes so hot in her avi ...

LOL! That avi alone is worth a star!

reply to post by bb23108

It's worth considering that God could be both a creator-God or superintelligent initiator (Creative Agency) as a first/last cause without being "the Great Other". In other words that the evolutionary process could have intelligent origin with us included in that process, with intent. The best allegory in this case would be one of a partnership and an invitation to participate co-creatively with God as a universal spirit of infinite intelligence. (see the link in my sig for more).

As to the "debate" and the rise of atheism, I would be just as happy if we were to make a deep inquiry into our true nature as intrinsic to the entire creative process and conclude, not that we are "things" in a universal of separate things but that our true nature is that we are life itself and the culmination of the process of life realizing ever higher states of awareness and beingness. In other words that we are God realizing union and communion with God, not as a Great Other, but as our very condition with the spirit of man co-mingled with the living spirit of the universe, the allegory for which is that of the Spirit and the Bride offering a free and open and non-coercive invitation to freely "drink" (integrate or "grok") the (non dualistic) living water which is the realized flow of eternal life as it is (Reality) in the spirit of life meeting life that never dies.

The very word "God" could then be replaced with "the Reality" whereby "Religion" could then be seen and recognized as a mythical and allegorical touchstone of remembrance, so that we don't forget and slip back into an egoic, separative, materialist existence thus losing the inheritance prepared for us from before the foundation of the world.

It's that separative, egoic, materialist secular POV based in ignorance and all manner of faulty assumptions which has to go, and hey when we look around at our modern "civilization" we can see quite clearly the destruction that it has wrought. For some to then use this terrible "predicament" (as it exists presently) as evidence to prove the non-existence of the Creative Agency and living Spirit of the universe, or that if one exists that He must be evil, is just beyond the pale in terms of the nature and magnitude of human ignorance, and absurdity.

So I guess my concern with altheism is it's small-mindedness, ego-centrism, and complete lack of imagination, the kind of thing that threatens to leave everyone and our children and our children's children lost and adrift in what was otherwise an ocean of meaning and significance. It would be immensely humorous if it wasn't so very sad, this throwing away of what we used to initiate our descendants into from generation to generation in one form or another, and now only performed as secret rites and handshakes by old men in windowless temple-lodges.

Thankfully, the Rhizome never dies and remains simply buried for some future generation to unearth, so I can remain hopeful and optimistic.

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by Openeye


morals= values
amoral= no morals
theist=god
atheist=no god
nemia=memory
anemia= no memory
political=position
apolitical=no position

the letter a in front of a word means NO.

Look it up.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

I appreciate your conjecture, NewAgeMan, but I have seen absolutely no evidence for a Creator-God, Great Other or Otherwise. What Creator-God or Creative Agency, causally related to the world, would create and then allow the destruction of hundreds of thousands of people in a tsunami for instance? What kind of God would allow all the suffering? What kind of plan is it that we live with others, love them, and then we all die?

No, this is not the Divine's work - it is the nature of this conditional realm in combination with the great destructive power our collective egos are wreaking here with our separative, egoic, consumer life-styles. We are destroying this planet and many are blaming the Divine! How childish is that? (I am not saying this is your position - you just got me going.)

Anyway, I cannot relate to God as Creator or Creative Agency - if he is, he did an incredibly horrific job! We should all collectively fire him at once!

There is no such Divine Being creating this world or in charge of it. Perhaps "higher" powers are doing it, etc., etc., but they too are all arising in the Unconditional Acausal Divine Reality doing their thing, perhaps also being self-obsessed egos, power-mongers, etc. - and they too must transcend their egoic illusions of separativeness.

I am only certain that the Reality I recognize as Truth did not sit back and create this world with some grand plan, and then leave it to run its course or have some intelligent overseeing of it in every moment. This presumption is a myth the collective egos of mankind have cooked up for ages - it is based on childhood presumptions that one's parents are other, and are going to take care of him.

The indivisible Divine Reality is NOT in charge here or anywhere in the conditional worlds. All conditional beings altogether are in charge - and in that sense we are all gods, so to speak. We create effects, we are the cause of all sorts of things happening here.

Really, what Absolute Divine Loving Lord would create this world such as it is? There is no grand plan! All of us are creating effects here everyday - and making it worse if we are not actively taking real responsibility for living rightly.

We must recognize our inherent non-separateness, our relatedness with all arising/all apparent others, and the Reality that is prior to but not separate from all arising. Only on that foundation will we act with real love and cooperation, and stop furthering the mess here.

reply to post by bb23108

Maybe you're just focused on the wrong stuff, and that plate tectonics is the best way to maintain a living world for the long haul...

Just don't assume, or project. It's hard not to I realize.

P.S. Have you seen any beauty in the world?


Even as I sit here out the window Seagulls are laughing and mourning over the end of the day..

What's OUR problem?

reply to post by HumansEh


The Flower of Life set in stone at the Temple of Osiris at Abydos.

reply to post by NewAgeMan
LOL! Of course I see beauty everyday, but that does not therefore mean the Divine created it. Really, the question is NOT how did all this come about - the only really important question is, what is Reality?

Now please excuse me while I get back to that enjoyable video you just posted...

reply to post by bb23108

Stick around then when we move into the evidence phase of this thread, maybe even you who sees all ain't seen nuth'n yet? Anything's possible.

Remember too when we're talking about God as the fully informed spirit of the universe, that even "Creator" is just a role..

"The Creator is created.
The Destroyer is destroyed.
The Preserver is preserved."
~ Meher Baba

~ from the book "God Speaks"