Atheism vs. God-Belief (the final debate).

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posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 02:56 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


If you say to me, prove that certain animals fly, I will show you creatures with wings - birds, bat, flying insects.

If you say to me, prove that gravity exists, I will drop things so that you may watch them fall.

Now, if you ask me to prove there is a god, what can I show you that has magical powers, can create life from dust, and lives forever? Nothing! There is nothing on this earth or in the entire universe that offers evidence of a god.

Of all the mythical creatures, the god is the most unprovable. If you ask me to prove that unicorns exist I can point to horses, then to creatures with wings, and to creatures with horns. If all three can exist, then it is not impossible to fathom one creature with all of these attributes.

But where are there any creatures with any of the attributes of a god? There are ZERO.


I thank you for articulating the words I wanted to use, but could not put my finger on.




posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 03:14 AM
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reply to post by slugger9787
 


You are being intellectually dishonest.

A theist does not mean god, it is someone who believes in a god.

An atheist does not mean no god, it means a a lack of belief in a god.

Do you understand?

I'm an atheist and no where have I claimed that a god does not exist, I simply do not believe in one.

Knowledge vs belief.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 04:13 AM
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Originally posted by Openeye
reply to post by slugger9787
 

Knowledge vs belief.


What "knowledge" specifically does atheism claim? Thanks.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:14 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 





I will respond jiggerj (I want to call you "pops" but I don't want to insult you either),


LOL Pops is good.




but it might take me a few days to haul it together. Your patience is appreciated.


WHOA there! Hey listen, I'm just here for the chat. Two or three small paragraphs is good. I don't want to WORK at discussions. I'm here on my time off and I DON'T do homewrok, dammit!



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 




I myself think that in regards to the notion of the weight of evidence i.e.: everything, that there's rather more in favor of God than that there is no God..


Isn't this the problem, though, when we use our limited knowledge to view things that we call evidence when it cannot be scientifically validated, or when millions of people can disagree with our conclusions?

With my lack of education in physics I myself think that the universe has always existed, but I am smart enough to know that I'm not even close to having the knowledge necessary to draw any worthy conclusions on the matter. Steven Hawking once claimed that information is lost when it gets sucked into a black. He even had the math to back up this claim. If a man of his genius can be THAT wrong, how can we armchair philosophers possibly think that our 'evidence' is valid when it comes to gods and the creation of life and of the universe?
edit on 3/16/2013 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 06:43 AM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan

What "knowledge" specifically does atheism claim? Thanks.


That's a bit of a trick question.
Firstly, most every atheist is an island their own with their own philosophies on life, morality, etc.
There's militant atheists, stupid atheists, smart atheists, educated, uneducated, rich, poor, kind, giving, greedy, corrupt, altruistic and every other description of humanity available.
There is no inherent magical sudden knowledge that comes from Atheism.

It's very simply recognition, conscious realization, and for some, affirmation, that there are no gods.
There are, in fact, many Atheists that don't even call themselves Atheists.

It's really a matter and argument of perspective.
These perspectives deal with the question of Unknowns.
Both the faithful and the Atheist will have questions about the Universe where the answer is "I don't know".

Where someone of faith runs into "I Don't Know", when convenient, they insert a god, or something along the lines that is essentially the same thing.

When an Atheist runs into "I Don't Know", the unknown is either accepted as unknown until such time as data permits postulate, and/or they look for an answer that doesn't rely on some easy-button magical invisible super-something.
Depending on the individual, sometimes the answer arrived at is even wrong, but, that's acceptable when the error is found and remedied.

I'm not afraid of "I don't Know".
I can accept a big fat blank nothing of Unknown, and either wait for data enough to fill in the blank, or rely on my own facility to seek out and find answer without having to be dishonest with myself in pretending something is real that isn't.

It's all a matter of perspective.
I'm okay with "I don't Know".
I'm more than fine with the Unknown and am happy to leave it that way without any need for fantasy.

Even if there was such a thing as some super invisible tinker bell fluttering around the universe, so what?
Why should I care? I'm sure they can get along quite fine and well without me scraping my hairless monkey knees on the ground, just as I can get along quite fine without them.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 07:10 AM
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OP: It appears to me that you are already biased towards A GOD. How do you know there is ONE GOD? What makes you right? The Abrahamic religions are mere babies in the religious world, so are effectively usurpers' or cults in the eyes of the far older religions.

What if the Pagan Gods are the real ones? and the Christian God is a charlatan?

What if an alien eventually contacts Earth and tells us that there really are a pantheon of Gods, will that change peoples thinking. What if the ancient alien culture says that in in all of their research that there truly are no Gods?

I personally do not believe in any Gods whether Christian or otherwise. Religion for me is just a load of backward thinking mumbo-jumbo. I have far more belief in Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table and Excalibur than what religions spout.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 10:03 AM
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Hey Nam!


What a thread.... seems to me a lot of finger pointing and poking in this debate, huh?


It's all about perspective. If each and every one of us were spoken to by "God" today many would still deny what they heard is really "God".

Sadly, I do not think anyone paid attention to your video in the Op. If anyone listened, they haven't responded. It's also quite lengthy so many will probably never take the "time' to listen.

I would like to respond to such a lecture given by Manly P Hall.


Each of us have our own Philosophy of Life. Each are unique to the individual per what the individual needs, so to speak, in this life of experience within matter itself.

I'm not so sure there is such a need to believe in a creator, or a "God", for each of us are on a journey again that is so unique to another. What is good for me, may not be good for you and vice versa.

To prove there is a God is based solely on what you have been shown via the light. It's in the experience itself and not all will experience such, imo. There is however a potential to see, if one so wills it.

Going back to the video/lecture via Manly...

In the beginning he speaks on behalf of the ancient Indians and sacred dancing with masks. With the mask comes a complete change in personality. The mask becomes the development of a theological belief. There is a divine power within the mask and it brings a deity in contact with humanity. An abstract principle....

Its hard to imagine something visible from the invisible....to imagine a force of energy as having shape and form.

It represents a power in nature that is invisible. "Symbolical".

Man has studied his environment throughout time and it gradually dawned upon him that pure life is invisible, We know its present by what it does but we do not know what it IS. We then began to study life and examine living things however we cannot understand the substance of energy, the vitality or force. We are able to estimate its consequences.

When we look around in nature we are able to see an infinite diversity of living things. All living things are supported by one essential life principle and has many appearances, many forms and appearances as they exist.

By picture, sound, color, mathematical calculations, astronomical observations and electronic symbols. Its obvious there is one indivisible life principle. Separate from all living things it's almost impossible to define.

This divine power, being the ultimate one, manifesting constantly through utter diversity. Various symbols represent this one in all cultures.

Then Manly speaks on behalf of the banker..... a great one, and a happy one. The more advanced, the more "lofty" the after life. In his mind he is symbolic to the great banker.

The loss of fairy tales and symbolism it may be therefor to conclude, if you will, virtues are lost as well. They are not cherished, lack of beauty and divine warmth is also less today from the age of antiquity.

The concerns of humanity has shifted. Undertones have been loss and superstition is denied.

The Universe of life does still exist, as a natural process.

This lecture is full of symbolism and understanding the misunderstandings in its regard.

What is inside of us all represents itself outward.

Divinity is within each of us.... God has many appearances as there are creatures.

Transforming the Universe suddenly becomes "The Great Commune".

Its one vast culture, One tremendous world and a cosmic universal democracy, and represents unique opportunity for all and special privilege for none.

Has its gradual manifestation to its purpose and pattern to each structure man builds.

The building is a symbol of the invisible building composed of eternal principles of mathematics and science. Everything we build in our minds and hearts is based on archetype forms that exist forever in nature. They are alive... nothing is dead and even in the belief in death cannot kill us.

Everything in us is alive and everything we see.... is alive. Its all controlled by a divine law.

We have a destiny to fulfill.... this is a purpose of a Universe with values.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Did you really expect any sort of closure from creating this thread?


Those with reasons to lie to themselves, will continue to lie to themselves, no matter what side they are on. It's called "emotional security".



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 10:25 AM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan
I'll come back to this on Sunday I need the night off and tomorrow night (Hockey Night in Canada).
LOL! Spoken like a true Canadian hockey fan! By your own admission you have created this most important and final debate ever, and now we have a time-out for hockey! ROFL! Gotta love it!


Originally posted by Druscilla
Firstly, most every atheist is an island their own with their own philosophies on life, morality, etc.
But can anyone, atheist or otherwise, actually deny that we arise in a vast field of relatedness? We are inseparably linked to all arising. It is only the moment to moment process of reacting to objects arising that even define any sense of separateness.

This sense of separation is the fundamental illusion everyone tends to create moment to moment, and upon which all other presumptions of separation are built - e.g., God as super-entity, separate others, objects, etc. The subject vs. object presumption is the first matter to fully inspect to see if it is actually true - or is it actually just a process of reacting to objects/others in each and every moment that creates this illusion of a separate "I"?

But this core consideration is typically only given lip service at best because it is too threatening to the security blanket of apparent self.
edit on 16-3-2013 by bb23108 because:



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 10:58 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


It is sad that any Being would not take advantage of the gifts and strength that can be bestowed on all of us from this Force i call God. A Mighty Force always there to guide and protect us.

If an athiest relies on inner divine self to find strength, then that to me IS a belief in a God, as God is within Us.

Just ask "God" if she is real. Your question will be answered thru unique synchronicity. God is everything, All of Us and Everywhere throughout the Universe.

People always ask for Proof of God so i ask, Could the Sun be God in a physical tangible form?

Can anyone prove the Sun is not a conscious, thinking Entity?

The Sun creates, provides and sustains all Life on Earth.

The Sun also has the power to destroy all life on this Planet. Is that a random and unconscious power?
no one knows.

God may have just bitten you, if a snake. just a thought : )



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Now, if you ask me to prove there is a god, what can I show you that has magical powers, can create life from dust, and lives forever? Nothing! There is nothing on this earth or in the entire universe that offers evidence of a god.
.


Go out in the daylight and look up. There you will see a magical star that can create Life from Dust it is the Sun. Can anyone prove the Sun is not conscious and thinking?

The Sun can also create Dust from Life.
Is the Sun's power to destroy life on this planet random and unconscious?



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by kimsie
 


I think the op was asking for people to
argue that there are/is no god(s).

A creative intelligence greater than you



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by kimsie

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Now, if you ask me to prove there is a god, what can I show you that has magical powers, can create life from dust, and lives forever? Nothing! There is nothing on this earth or in the entire universe that offers evidence of a god.
.


Go out in the daylight and look up. There you will see a magical star that can create Life from Dust it is the Sun. Can anyone prove the Sun is not conscious and thinking?

The Sun can also create Dust from Life.
Is the Sun's power to destroy life on this planet random and unconscious?



"Oh mighty prophet of the fiery shining sky ball/god,
How may we please this mighty giver of all life lest it turn its fiery wrath upon us!"

seeks virgin to sacrifice

Only kidding!
But that's how easy it is to start a religion.
Divine mysteries are all well and good, its when humans believe that they can interpret it that it all goes horribly wrong. Except for the interpreters that is.
edit on 16-3-2013 by HumansEh because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by slugger9787
 




I think the op was asking for people to
argue that there are/is no god(s).

A creative intelligence greater than you


Wouldn't that make Bill Gates a god? He's a creative intelligence, and he certainly has more talents at his disposal than I do.
edit on 16-3-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by slugger9787
reply to post by kimsie
 


I think the op was asking for people to
argue that there are/is no god(s).

A creative intelligence greater than you


Exactly, can anyone prove / disprove the Sun is not conscious and thinking ? ; ie: intelligent.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by kimsie
 



Exactly, can anyone prove / disprove the Sun is not conscious and thinking ? ; ie: intelligent.


Prove to us that it displays an active cognitive process.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by kimsie
 



Exactly, can anyone prove / disprove the Sun is not conscious and thinking ? ; ie: intelligent.


Prove to us that it displays an active cognitive process.


OK thats easily done;
Mental Weakness can be define in any if these ways;

•If Attention is weak
•If Processing Speed is slow
•If Logic and Reasoning is weak
•If Auditory Processing is weak
•If Long-Term Memory is weak
•If Visual Processing is weak

If any one of these cognitive skills are weak it will hinder performance

Sun is currently performing very well as I am currently enjoying it's performance

Love to All
Think Out of the Box
: )



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 12:25 PM
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reply to post by kimsie
 


The power of the sun is dependent upon the laws of physics and math.

The laws of physics and math are universal.
The laws of physics and math are objective.
The laws of physics and math are absolute.

The sun follows these laws.

Someone put these laws into motion.
That being is GOD.

You are worshipping the created instead of the creator.



posted on Mar, 16 2013 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by kimsie

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Now, if you ask me to prove there is a god, what can I show you that has magical powers, can create life from dust, and lives forever? Nothing! There is nothing on this earth or in the entire universe that offers evidence of a god.
.


Go out in the daylight and look up. There you will see a magical star that can create Life from Dust it is the Sun. Can anyone prove the Sun is not conscious and thinking?

The Sun can also create Dust from Life.
Is the Sun's power to destroy life on this planet random and unconscious?



The sun is not a MAGICAL STAR. It works on very natural processes. And now we have to prove that the sun is not conscious and thinking? Can you prove that the moon is not conscious and thinking? How about a cloud?





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