Consciousness and vegetarianism

I have been following the recent advancements in our understanding of plants and the amazing findings we are gathering about their behavior. New schools of scientific research are being formed, like Plant Neurobiology.

Turns out they have senses perhaps more developed than those of animals, an apparent awareness of self- other separation, awareness of environment, recognition of their kin, and communication between each other, both physiological and electric. They communicate with each other largely via their root system, which is beginning to look like the equivalent of their "brain".

It is looking more and more like we cannot dismiss the concept easily that plants might have consciousness of some sort, and perhaps even self consciousness. They have all the mechanisms animals have, of pain.

Personally I have always felt this was true, myself.
But I wonder, with the growing amount of people who are vegetarians these days, it makes me wonder if this changes their views or preferences?

Is it relevant? Does it stir some concern?
Thanks for any input you'd be willing to contribute!

A couple random links......
en.wikipedia.org...
www.plantbehavior.org...

www.sciencedaily.com...

Cool story, so what has your reseearch into Plant's consciousness/senses turn up?

I'm always blown away when a particular species of bamboo blooms, and goes to seed and dies, virtually all around the world do in unison (of that species).

But, where are the neurons, CNS or science won't get anywhere on why?

reply to post by Bluesma


Do you not see that science falsely called is just giving you "proof" of pantheism? And just as their esoteric beliefs state such hypocrisy as "the man who slaughters animals for food is guilty of murder but not all deliberate killings of man by man is actually murder", I've no doubt that they'll spin this latest esoterism into something equally as hypocritical.

reply to post by Bluesma


Surely the consideration is why you are a vegetarian?

If it is for ethical reasons then this aught to influence that decision. If it is for health reasons then this is of no interest.

Makes no difference to me, but is a bally interesting new field to keep an eye on. Fascinating.

reply to post by Bluesma


My family is vegetarian and we do not feel bad at all. The reason meat eaters try to make this sound ironic is to get a sense of "gotcha, ya damn hippies". Really, though, it isn't remotely the same.

Animals have sentience. They are individuals. We all are part of the same system on a spiritual level but, on a physical level, we have sovereignty. A single carrot on Earth is like a single hair from your head. You feel haircuts (some people with an agenda might interpret this as pain) but you get them and it allows more hair to grow back in an even more healthy fashion. When I eat an apple, I do not eat the whole tree. When I eat a potato, I do not dig up the entire Earth and shove it into my mouth.

It is not the same.

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by Bluesma

 

The reason meat eaters try to make this sound ironic is to get a sense of "gotcha, ya damn hippies". .

Whoa, wait- I had no such attitude! I don't have anything against vegetarians, and I never had one explain to me the reasons for their choice. So as I have been thinking about this, I wondered if it causes them any conflict or what.
I was just curious and interested in hearing from them.

Geez, where are you from? Texas or something? What a terribly hostile attitude! I had no idea that was (another) controversial subject. I can't delete this here.... but if the mods want to take it down, I'd appreciate it.
I did not mean to insult anyone at all. Sorry

reply to post by Bluesma


I believe Cuervo was making a general statement, not a statement about you specifically.

The general statement is accurate, though. Those who come to the defense of meat eating always try and play the "yer a hypocrite" card, because they really have nothing else to work with except trying to character assassinate, since all the physiological evidence points to humans not being designed to eat meat in any way. But in reality trying to play that card is just as pathetic as trying to claim having canine teeth make you an omnivore, as so many try to claim

I agree with Cuervo, its not even remotely the same, and to try to equate the two is ridiculous.

reply to post by Bluesma

The implications of plants having some sort of plant consciousness is difficult to fathom without them having some sort of sensual organs. I know some leaves close in the dark, and venus flytraps can close on the movement of flies, but it appears those movements are automaton in nature. If a plant did have consciousness, it would be extremely base and something that could not be understood through our eyes.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus

I believe Cuervo was making a general statement, not a statement about you specifically.

The general statement is accurate, though. Those who come to the defense of meat eating always try and play the "yer a hypocrite" card, because they really have nothing else to work with except trying to character assassinate, since all the physiological evidence points to humans not being designed to eat meat in any way. But in reality trying to play that card is just as pathetic as trying to claim having canine teeth make you an omnivore, as so many try to claim

I agree with Cuervo, its not even remotely the same, and to try to equate the two is ridiculous.

Humans are omnivores. That's the fact of the matter, and is known simply because we are. Claiming otherwise is absurd. Saying we're not designed to eat meat, while we have zero organs to break down cellulose, is only championing one side of the issue, which seems to be the go-to technique of vegetarians in the plight to justify their dietary choices.

Animal bones in ancient settlements and cave paintings show we've always had meat in our diet. If that is unnatural, then so is nature.

Like all omnivores, we eat what is readily available and more abundant. For humans, because we have agriculture and farming, and both meat and vegetables are readily available, we are able to eat both and make choices on which we'd prefer to eat.

reply to post by Bluesma


Eating a tomato, doesn't kill the tomato plant. It's not the same thing.

Why don't humans eat mostly omnivores, but instead, mostly grazing animals which devour vegetation,

that is, in the wild and on organic farms, as opposed to capitalist factory farms that supply the huge meaty appetite of fast food chains as well as the 'average' all-american meal, breakfast lunch n dinner?

Yes, I'm a vegan and I torture my food before putting it out of its misery by eating it. Although vegetarians usually eat seeds (grain, etc.) or seed-pods (fruit, etc.) I like to march the entire plant down a chute, grab it by its back heels, hang it upside down, and cut its throat for the lutz before immediately, which it's still in its death throes, cutting off its skin and starting the chopping. That's how I get the seeds, like rice, and oatmeal, and beans. And no peace-loving corpsearian is going to stop me, either. Honey, grab the butcher knife, I've got a live corn on the cob here!

reply to post by Bluesma


There is really nothing to be sorry about, Bluesma. You have brought up valid points and no one should be insulted. We ought to think deeper the validity of being a vegetarian on moral (not killing) justifications. By eating tomatoes, for example, we may be killing the seeds (ie. tomato embryos), unless we replant ALL the seeds back. And who is to say for sure we are not inflicting pain if we pluck the fruits off a plant/tree to begin with? And what about the microscopic living organisms that might be attached to the vegetables we eat? Who are we to say they and the vegetables are lesser creatures than cows/pigs/goats that more deservedly sacrificed to satisfy our hunger? Is there a "moral" caste system of living things I am not aware of?

Being humans, in most cases, we tend to justify what we do is more virtuous; it maybe an in-built defense mechanism. That is probably why we see continuous sufferings on earth. My war is more justified than your war, for instance. I guess many things in life boil down to some degree of blind leap of faith, lacking in deep questioning and soul searching, but plenty of pre-judgment..

By the way, all moral-based vegetarians should probably rejoice or at least be open to this idea: we maybe looking at in-vitro meat in not-too-distant a future. I am not sure what the process entails, but it could potentially minimize the torturing/killing of all living things (yes, perhaps including of plants).

CNN-InVitro Meat

I know trees in a forest are intelligent. They have collective consciousness. They act as one.

All plants have consciousness, just because man says it is not so does not mean it is not real. We set the parameters and definitions of what we think intelligence is. All of the evidence will put mankind on the pedestal and other evidence presented has to comply with this or it will be rejected. Being able to build great weapons that destroy other civilizations that challenge our ways is a sign of intellect and strength. Destroying the earth's ability to provide for us is of no concern to a race so intelligent. No other species can create such toxic chemicals to poison their environment, we are the best.

I've been talking to the trees again, got to quit doing that

reply to post by Aleister


Just yesterday, I grilled an eggplant over my gas cooker. If only it could kick and scream, I thought. Lucky for me, they were helpless or there would have been a lot more mess to clean.

reply to post by Bluesma


No - it should not be taken down - or apologised for! It is an interesting question - gave me “food” for thought - thank you!

There are different ethical motives for vegetarianism.
I am vegetarian and my main motivation is unapologetically political and related to the resource inefficiency and inequity of producing the volumes of meat that we consume. Production (I would argue, overproduction) of meat takes up ridiculous amounts of water, land and grains in a world where people starve or die for lack of access to clean water - and yes, there is far more complexity involved in those problems, but our attitudes to food are a significant factor. Many argue that we are omnivores and meat is a key to the evolution of our large brains. Maybe, but we do not need nearly as much as we eat.
Obesity is a form of MAL(bad)nutrition...

This article talks about some of the things that motivate me:
Some reasons I don't eat meat

Also related to the volume of meat that we consume, I have a huge problem with the cruelty inherent in factory farming of animals. I don’t really have an issue with the idea of killing an animal to eat, as such, but I do have an issue with that animal having a horrendous life leading up to a traumatic death. There are also negative human effects too - overuse of antibiotics is just one. It is often both difficult and expensive to buy meat where this is not the case - so for political and humane reasons I choose not to eat it at all.

It’s a shame - I love a good steak, but sometimes you have to put your money where your mouth is, or live conscious of being a hypocrite, which is not pleasant either.

IF plants were proven to be sentient, self conscious, able to feel pain etc then this would not effect my reasoning around resource efficiency but it may give me pause around means of production if it could be shown that some were more humane than others. Obviously you can’t stop eating- all animals must eat - but this animal can make decisions about what to eat and I think I would at least try to take the most ethical (according to my ethics) position that was practical without self harm.

Personally I am not convinced that this is an issue (wishful thinking perhaps?) but it is an interesting “what if” question!

Originally posted by Bluesma

Originally posted by Cuervo
reply to post by Bluesma

 

The reason meat eaters try to make this sound ironic is to get a sense of "gotcha, ya damn hippies". .

Whoa, wait- I had no such attitude! I don't have anything against vegetarians, and I never had one explain to me the reasons for their choice. So as I have been thinking about this, I wondered if it causes them any conflict or what.
I was just curious and interested in hearing from them.

Geez, where are you from? Texas or something? What a terribly hostile attitude! I had no idea that was (another) controversial subject. I can't delete this here.... but if the mods want to take it down, I'd appreciate it.
I did not mean to insult anyone at all. Sorry

Whoah, dude! I wasn't offended at all! No, I totally took your question as a sincere inquiry. I was just talking about how people often bring up plant "feelings" as a way to justify eating meat. It happens all the time, whether they are joking or not.

Yeah... you totally read me wrong or I wrote wrong but I thought this thread was great. I'm over it if you are.

If people aren't going to take this the wrong way... I just had no idea omnivores and vegetarians were at war in some parts of the world!

Reading some fo these posts, I see some people choose this because of the state of the meat producing industry in the US. I am not familar with it there. I do know that hormonal treatments or antibiotic treatments (unless in the case of illness) are illegal here..
We have cows around our house, they have small groups, huge areas to roam, and are very happy. The farmer is a friend, and loves each one. I have helped him stay up all night nursing a beast with a cold- even if his ultimate destination was slaughter. These animals are loved and thanked for their sacrifice and they live a good life before a humane and painless death.
I would be willing to give my life for other beings, so I guess I just put my self in their hooves and don't think further usually.

I just took some photos a few days ago out front. I love our cows!






But it sounds like some of you make this choice for different reasons, like that you feel it is better for your health?
Then I can see how this possibility would really make no difference to you then.

In truth I felt almost concerned for the people that I imagined suddenly in a state of existential angst! This seemed a troubling and sad prospect to me- NOT somethign I would want to make worse or mock!

reply to post by Bluesma

It is looking more and more like we cannot dismiss the concept easily that plants might have consciousness of some sort, and perhaps even self consciousness. They have all the mechanisms animals have, of pain.

Bluesman my personal belief is all organic forms are consious aware one way or another. If we dont eat vegtables on moral grounds that it is harming another living aware creature what is the alternative for how we sustain our bodies?

reply to post by KamaSutra


Recent research is showing Darwins "root brain" theory might have been correct!
I amm looking through so much research on it this morning, I kinda feel overwhelmed now, and not knowing where to start- this will end up being pages upon pages! I can place a couple of links though...

The Root Brain Hypothesis of Charles and Francis Darwin
extracts-

Recent advances in plant molecular biology, cellular biology, electrophysiology and ecology, unmask plants as sensory and communicative organisms, characterized by active, problem-solving behavior.....Present day results,8–13 however, are increasingly coming to show that, in contrast with the classical view, plants are definitely not passive automatic organisms. On the contrary, review they possess a sensory-based cognition which leads to behavior, decisions and even displays of prototypic intelligence..

Electrical messages are sent through plants, particularly in the root system, where the tips are their main sensorial system,. They can feel and determine differences in pressure, and sned messages to the main root, causing the rest of the plant to react. Cut or harm the root, and the rest of the plant gets th emessage and will grow away from the area of the assult.

It can also pick up and carry chemical information, like the presence of other plant roots in the area, and determine whether they are kin, or simply of the same type, or even of an "enemy" type (and react accordingly- nurture family members, protect friends, attack or flee enemies). It all just goes on slower!
Recent surprising similarities between plant cells and neurons

There are very prominent similarities between tip-growing plant cells and the extending axons of neurons.However, recent advances reveal that these visible similarities stretch beyond the tip-growing plant cells and include plant tissue cells generating action potentials3 and accomplishing vesicle trafficking and recycling, typically at actin/myosin enriched cell-cell adhesion domains resembling neuronal synapses.

There's a lot more thaat one could Google up in a second, because it is an exploding subject at this time.
In any case, sure makes you want to go water your plants, and maybe have a little chat, doesn't it??

Okay, I have a few questions.(I'm not trying to be a smart-aleck or anything like that).

1. What difference should this make to vegans/vegetarians?
2. (this is directed towards the Veg crowd) Why does it bother you that we eat meat? Are we not animals? Do animals not eat other animals? If humans are not supposed to be omnivores, why did we become omnivores in the first place? Why is it that our eating of meat hasn't caused more health problems? If a cow eats meat, it will not be able to digest it in any way (though getting a cow to eat meat would be a pretty hard chore in itself, not including what goes on in the Industrial-sized slaughter houses), If humans are to be herbivores, our digestive tracts would be more similar to those of other herbivorous mammals (bovines, avines, equines, ect.) Why is it also that our closest living relatives (apes such as bonobos, chimpanzees, and oranutans.) are also omnivorous?