Surely Africa should adopt European/Western ideals/values or at least redefine African values?

I shall begin by saying that I am of pure, unadulterated African descent (before I get accused of being a White supremacist).

First of all, I would like to define what exactly African culture is? Is it the tribal issues that we see today? Is it the style of life that we see in African countries today? If so, one can clearly see that such ways of life are not conducive for the advancement of the African and humanity.

Now, without disrespect, having been born and brought up in a European country, I feel that the adoption of European/Western ideals/values by Sub-Sahara Africa should take place.

Or even more so, African culture should be redefined. That is, emphasis should be placed on industriousness, self-determination, ambition, strength and independence. What we see of African culture today is the irrational clinging onto colonial religions (i.e. Christianity/Islam) and ancestral traditions (which have themselves done nothing to advance humanity or the African himself).

Furthermore, I believe that African countries should go through a Nazi-German-type like stage. Not fascism or socialism per se - but rather, some strong and formidable ideals that make the African proud and confident and hard-working and industrious and self-determined.

The African should be rational. He should take up empiricism and the sciences as beacons of advancement and not dwell too much on irrational clinging to unhelpful traditions and unhelpful religions.

Basically, what I say is that the African should basically start over. He should completely cancel his history (of which not much is said about and of which not much led to the advancement of the human race) and then start over with some grand and magnificent values. Because right now, I do not at all think that the African way of life is working. And giving aid fosters laziness and kills any hard-working persona. Constant aid is a handout and excessive welfare. For a man to constantly feed himself, he must learn how to feed himself. If he is being constantly being fed by a third party, he will never learn/never bother to learn to feed himself.

In short, there are hundreds of millions of people in this region - the potential to create a super race of Africans is too great. Petty corruption is too ridiculous and stupid and harms the advancement of the African. Whilst Europe and America build space stations, many African countries still drive around in old bangers from the 80s and don't contribute greatly to the advancement of the human race. This is not good. It is my belief, contrary to popular belief, that the African can be one of the greatest peoples within the Human Race - but he must change his values. Clearly all of this claptrap about "community" and whatnot has failed and only served well if in a state of stagnation and halting of development. Not now. Not when the likes of China speed on to advancement. Not when the likes of the UAE, which has less oil than Nigeria alone, build skyscrapers daily.

So basically you want to abolish African culture and impose European culture upon them with our liberal ideals

How about…. NO, lets not do that, how about other than assuming we are better than them with our liberal elitism we accept African culture for what it is and let them figure it out their own way.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
So basically you want to abolish African culture and impose European culture upon them with our liberal ideals

How about…. NO, lets not do that, how about other than assuming we are better than them with our liberal elitism we accept African culture for what it is and let them figure it out their own way.

But African culture isn't very good is it? Do you know what exactly African culture is?

Also, I say that European, or advanced cultures are adopted by Sub-Sahara Africa or that African culture is redefined.

I think across Africa there are myriad examples of positive culture and social diversity.

Tragically, Africa is plagued by an inability to take the step out of the corruption and malaise that afflicts this colourful continent. Colonialism is gone (at least from the West) and many African nations are being sold out by their corrupt leaders to China, thus moving into more blocks on progress. Corruption is the disease.

African needs less authoritarianism and more people power to sweep away the cancerous political system that shackles and inhibits progress.

Africa could be great.

Regards

Why would Africa want to adopt European / Western ideals of pure unadulterated consumerism?

If anything, I'd think that Europeans / Western civilizations might be better off adopting African shamanism.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens


I admit, I have no idea what "African culture" is. What comes to mind, when I hear those two words together are the National Geographic pictures of bare breasted women with really long necks and plates in their lips, etc.

Sorry for the stereotype, but that's just how ignorant I really am to "African culture."

Good thread topic. I hope to see some of our outspoken African members comment on your thread. I'm looking for you Halfoldman! hehe.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens

But African culture isn't very good is it? Do you know what exactly African culture is?

Who are you or who am I for that matter to say that about another culture.

What not, what is not “very good” about it, that is a very subjective view

There may be people in Ethiopia who view our culture as decadent and rife with social depravity and sin who think we should be more like them. I am not saying that I would agree with that term but it is all very subjective, they have been socially constructed into that system it is what they know. What you are proposing would be a cultural atrocity to wipe away the culture of a entire continent to come in line with our liberal values, it is wrong and I don’t support it.

Yes Africa does have problems particularly in regards to human rights but a total abolishment of their culture is not the answer and it would never work.

For what you want to do we would have to conquer Africa again, basically we would need to set the clock back by about 200 years.

It’s a bad idea.

Originally posted by babybunnies
Why would Africa want to adopt European / Western ideals of pure unadulterated consumerism?

If anything, I'd think that Europeans / Western civilizations might be better off adopting African shamanism.

Not consumerism per se - rather industriousness, independence, self-determination, self-reliance, ambiton, drive, intellectualism and whatnot.

Unfortunately, being empirical, we have to look at what has worked for humanity. Asian countries progress and aid in human advancement. European countries and America progress and aid in human advancement. But African countries go back and forth and unfortunately, we do not see much contribution to human advancement. (Put it this way, if all Sub-Saharan Africans (not the region, the people - because if the region vanished, humanity would be in deep sh1t) were to suddenly vanish, would it really affect the progress of humanity? Unfortunately, not in the least - possibly even on the contrary.

No. African culture must be redefined with the embracing of such values as the above and qualities as self-reliance, intellectualism, intelligence, ambition, drive and whatnot.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens

 

But African culture isn't very good is it? Do you know what exactly African culture is?

Who are you or who am I for that matter to say that about another culture.

What not, what is not “very good” about it, that is a very subjective view

There may be people in Ethiopia who view our culture as decadent and rife with social depravity and sin who think we should be more like them. I am not saying that I would agree with that term but it is all very subjective, they have been socially constructed into that system it is what they know. What you are proposing would be a cultural atrocity to wipe away the culture of a entire continent to come in line with our liberal values, it is wrong and I don’t support it.

Yes Africa does have problems particularly in regards to human rights but a total abolishment of their culture is not the answer and it would never work.

For what you want to do we would have to conquer Africa again, basically we would need to set the clock back by about 200 years.

It’s a bad idea.

I'm not necessarily advocating liberal values. Rather, the values of independence, self-reliance, ambition, intelligence, intellectualism, self-determination and whatnot.

One needs to look at those nations and regions that are progressing rapidly and greatly aiding human advancement - e.g. China, Japan, Britain, Germany, France, USA, Russia etc. But what can we say of African countries? African countries are busy constantly trying to solve poverty issues and whatnot, that there is no time for intellectualism and whatnot - no time or space for brilliant mathematicians and scientists to solve proofs, to scan the skies, to contribute to global scientific discourse, to write magnificently, engage in sophisticated scientific/weapons research etc - all signs of sophisticated nations, peoples etc.

EDIT: Also, it is not about what it "good" per se. It is about what is good for progress and the advancement of humanity. If one is constantly warring, clearly this is not good for progress. Clearly there will be no time for intellectuals to settle and talk and write and contribute to the advancement of their societies. There will be no time or space for the Newtons or Einsteins or Oppenheimers or Bachs of Africa or whatever to rise and contribute.

Originally posted by babybunnies
Why would Africa want to adopt European / Western ideals of pure unadulterated consumerism?

If anything, I'd think that Europeans / Western civilizations might be better off adopting African shamanism.

Yes..burning witches and executing anyone suspected of being a homosexual.

truly an enlightening experience..much better than us having jobs and cable television...

-Le' sigh-

You realize the irony of your statements on the internet..typed in by a computer...that you bought..
nevermind..you probably don't.

So ops.
Here is the issue.

The westerners on here haven't (generally speaking) stepped out of the bubble...they will sit behind their mound of electronics and suggest they are poor..they will type on their computer of how they are fed ignorance..they think that Africa is like some amazing land of purity and happiness where the sun dances and everyone rides a zebra..that corruption only happens in the west.

aka, they are in dreamland...but that's part of being part of the west. You become so comfortable and full of liberties that you actually overlook what you have and can then spend your days knitpicking..making giant mountains out of molehills and not seeing actual mountains off shore.

Yes. I agree..western civilization and general ideals (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) should be global...not to dismiss cultural heritage, but adapt cultures to these three keys. It is from there, where people can persue their dreams and personal goals without fear of being infringed by government, that nations grow...always..be it the west of today, or the ancient greeks of yesterday and all areas in between where the mind and freedom of expression topped ultimate control over fiefdoms.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin

Who are you or who am I for that matter to say that about another culture.

What not, what is not “very good” about it, that is a very subjective view

I had shared your opinion, while reading the title, but changed my mind after reading what he had to say. He is from that "African culture", and has every right to say what he wants about it.

I do agree that he should tell us what he believes is not very good about in the opening post.

reply to post by HomoSapiensSapiens

Basically, what I say is that the African should basically start over. He should completely cancel his history (of which not much is said about and of which not much led to the advancement of the human race

I hope you are joking. All humans came out of Africa. Were do you think the world would be today without the likes of ancient Egypt for example.

reply to post by purplemer


Yes. People do like to quote Egypt when asked about great African civilisations. However, consider this. Consider that I am a White Supremacist and I ask you to tell me of how in any way African peoples have aided in the advancement of sophistication and human development. If you were to quote Egypt, I'd simply laugh in your face, would I not? I would scoff and tell you that Egyptians are/were not Black Africans - they were only advanced because they had white DNA.

Do you see what I say now? We need those black Newtons, those black Einsteins, those black Dysons, those black Darwins, those black Thomas Youngs, those black Goethes and Spinozas and whatnot. And whilst skin colour is indeed thought of as trivial, sure - it still does not negate the fact that great men need to star in history who are pure black, not Obama black or African-American black - we're talking about pure, unadulterated Sub-Saharan African black, to be quite pedantic.

P.S.

Also, I wasn't joking. Africans tend to look at European/Asian cultures/ideals and whatnot and think of it as different and jokingly say "whites" and whatnot, as if they're greatly different. In fact, such attitudes need to stop. An adoption of ideals and values that have propelled humanity needs to be adopted by every Sub-Saharan African. I cannot see how shamanism, tribalism and all of that nonsense aids in the advancement of humanity. The Black African needs to be interested in the world, in the universe. He needs to enquire. He needs to dump the aid and become self-reliant, strong-willed and self-determined and independent. Unfortunately, right now, many Africans struggle to even feed themselves, let alone be able to ponder upon the cosmos and mathematics. The fact of the matter is that the Black African is just as intelligent as other peoples, if not more - but the position he finds himself in and the attitudes and cultures that plague him are damaging and inhibiting. One only need look at some of the "Black culture" that pervades the Black African-Caribbean diaspora - all of this rap/bad attitude/disrespect/hate authority culture. It's disgusting. It needs to stop.

Great thread. It really makes you think of the bigger picture (all of humanity)

Although I agree with you %100 I can see how some narrow minded individuals would construe what you are bringing to the table as racist. But it's not.
The thing is, the people you're talking about are caudled by the west, particularly the PC crowd. Essentially, like you had stated, these people(s) are being enabled in a sense.

BTW, it is not set in stone fact that modern man started out in Africa. It is still a theory and every year scientists are finding compelling evidence that man may not have started in Africa. That's a topic for another thread though.

S&f And thank you for keeping the thread "adult like". But when the trolls show up.... smh

Having read the OP's statement. If I am reading it correctly, the Op, believes that people of Africa should adopt a more western culture and values, rather than their own. There are a few things that can be stated:

Knowing what I know of Africa there is a few things that can be stated. It is an old land, with alot of history, some of which influenced the modern day world. The Egyptians are one of the earliest civilizations, some believe that the arts of agriculture and other sciences started in Egypt. Mining, metal working, animal husbandry all started in Africa as a way of life. Even the Dogon people, with all of their primitive beliefs shocked the world when it came out that some of their beliefs turns out to be true, in the area of Astronomy.

There is a large myrid of cultures already there, from a scientific point of view, they are either changing to meet the modern day or clining to values that are handed down via traditions.

Yet if you look at what has happened in the past and currently, I think that the last thing that the people of Africa would need is more influence. The hisotry of Africa when it comes to western values is not a pleasent one and what have they aquired from the West and the European culture? Slavery? How about being told what you can and can not do on lands that your people controled? Then there are the really wonderful habits that were brought to the continent, such as some STD's and then the systematic explotation of the natural resources of that country. Even its greatest treasures were plundered and removed, without a thought or concern for the very people such represented.

Then there are a few problems that continue today, all based off of Western culture: The exploitation of the people and the resources. Funny one of the worlds biggest monopolies comes right out of Africa, ever hear of De Beers corporation? Care to guess, where for the longest time all of the worlds diamonds came from? And what did it get the people who mined it? More hardship and problems. This does not even begin to address the problems that are also existing in Africa, the inner turmoil, that all came out from the time of when the majority of Africa was carved up as colonies. And like the western powers, they learned the art of taking revenge for past hurts and slights, that continue today. After all where do you think the very idea of what happened in Rwanda came from? Somehow I do not believe it started in Africa, but from Europe and the West.

I think some of you are missing the point of the O.P. That was probably triggered due to the O.P's wishful thinking for a Nazi-like Government, which does indeed sound shocking. I'm going to take it as a wish for a leader who can unite a race/continent of people, raise African self-esteem, and not so much a leader who will attempt to brainwash the entire nation into hating anyone in particular and seek world domination.

Western values are not perfect by any means. Personally I believe we could learn a lot from each other, but how can that happen when many African countries are too busy (to this day) fighting within themselves? Some of these problems were introduced during colonization, when some European countries destabilized parts of Africa. Some glorified Western values had something to do with that. However it seems to me that Africa was mostly divided already due to tribalism. In my opinion (and maybe I'm wrong) that is what allowed colonization to happen successfully in the first place, because not enough tribes were able to unite against the intruders.

I often think about this problem and it saddens me that such a beautiful and lush continent is so full of violence, poverty and despair.There is unbelievable wealth in Africa. If only Africans would learn to use that wealth for the benefit of their entire continent instead of selling all their wealth to Westerners and Easterners. They are too divided and therefore many times powerless against outside and even inside forces. As has been said, "United we rise, divided we fall." That is the key difference between successful and unsuccessful civilizations, to be able to unite as one in a common goal.

reply to post by sdcigarpig


First, they sold their own. Before Europeans ever set foot on that continent. Second: the Arabs started the slavery trade into a huge "business" and as far as I know the Arabian, middle east countries are not Western.

reply to post by kimish

While yes you are correct on the slavery issue, however it should be noted, that in time the practice on the continent would have ceased. In most cases, what could have been construed as slavery, was more to be like indentured servitude.

And yes the Arabians did enslave those under the conquored territories, and while the west ended the practice in the 1800's, they continued it to 1939. But if you look at the western practices, such as the Papal bull of 1452, it pretty much made anyone who was not, a catholic, to the status of being a slave for the rest of their natural life, and slavery was a brutal practice, in a western sense.

The only real difference between the Arabians and the Western culture, is that the arabians did not rip a people from their home to lands unknown, or split apart families. But that is besides the point the issue here is more about should the Africans develope a more western culture and leave behind their traditional ways.

Ultimately no, as something would be lost.

reply to post by babybunnies

In my country,South Africa,rampant consumerism is indeed the order of the day now,among all races.South African society is very much influenced by the American way of life,i think,and South Africa has always been the most "westernised" on the continent,anyway,so its maybe not the best example.I know what the OP means,that he/she would love to see Africans as individuals and nations,wake up to their potential,to make the best of themselves and Their resources.OP,I feel where you're coming from,and i agree that there is certainly a lack of ambition among the average continental population.I know you mean:"Give a man a fish,you feed him for a day-teach him to fish,and you feed him for a lifetime".That Africans should strive to empower Themselves.
That was heartfelt,what you wrote,OP,or at least thats the impression i received,so s+f for you,for that.Thing is,when i look at American society,at Western countries in general,i think that our Goals are the same,as pertains to Joe/Jill Averageperson-Africans too want a job,a chance to raise a family and provide for them,even if just by living off the land.A normal peaceful life and a shot at the pursuit of happiness.But i think that continental African people just for the most part, are'nt wired to be very ambitious,to be honest.To be honest some more,if it were'nt for the never-ending regional wars+ resulting bloodshed, for the droughts+ resulting famines and governmental corruption i would say,Africans have a better,more authentic way of life than most people in Western societies.However, i still don't think a governent like even Zimbabwe,eg,is More corrupt than the US government-they just don't have the funds+expertise to hide theirs as well.They are less sophisticated,thats the main difference.And here is maybe the difference from you,OP, in how i see it-if Africa had to become a powerhouse,industrialised,there would arise in the course of time,a much more sophisticated Africa in general.That is what may not be such a good thing.Once "innocence" is lost,it cannot be regained.This is the one relatively unspoilt continent,aside from Antarctica.As pertains to the actual soil,as pertains to the hearts and minds of the majority of Africa's population.