The 2012 shift that DID and DO happen

reply to post by Raud


Well, thank you for your answer as well.

All stereologist wanted in the first place was seeing the connection to 2012. And even yourself admitted in the end that there basically is none.

I think the problem for a lot of people including myself is when OP state things as fact (the mayans said this) without that being the case.

You said 2012 still DID bring a change and named your own personal experience as proof. You have to expect to get called on that, after all this is a forum. We post things here to discuss them with others.

He just tried to get info from you, you refused to give anything but a subjective viewpoint.

I think the problem is more in the wording, than in the matter at hand. You experience a change, and that is real for you. OK. Now, you should try to acknowledge that this change is probably not directly related to 2012.

And then you would be on the same page as stereologist, you are not so far apart!

Originally posted by Raud
reply to post by stereologist

 

How to detect these energies that I refer to as "God"? MAN, are you for real? I actually thought earlier: "man, I hope it won't come to anyone asking how to prove 'God' because if, I'm gonna explode"

Sorry but that question is just pure hallmark for how far away we are from each other on this issue.

THAT I could actually agree with.

reply to post by Nightaudit


Best Nightaudit,

good to have you back in the thread. You have assumed the role of informal moderator in this discussion, whether you like it or not Take it as a compliment; that role is obviously needed.
At the same time, it is much more convenient, challenging and rewarding to debate with someone who has at least an ounce of comparable values so you may have to assume the role of participant also
I guess you didn't think you would sign up for any of the two functions so I'll just assign you to both!

To post this reply, I actually need three tabs open: one in which to write, one to read your many posts and one where I have the OP open (to figure out just where the hell it all went wrong).
I also try to cook dinner and study for my exam at the same time!

Where to begin...

The soda does not taste like orange! It tastes like crap! Or maybe it tastes like chemicals? Maybe it tastes like orange peel? Like sugar? Now, you assumed the flavor, one that was easy to define but what if the taste was like Inca Cola? What the hell kinda taste does that one have (I mean, seriously)?
Everything exists in reaction to something. Stating something else than that is positivist thought and I denounce that way of observing the world. Sorry, but that's where I stand in that aspect. If not anything else, this is exactly what they teach at any university (worth something).
By this, I must of course admit that all I can ever give is a subjective view. Saying anything else would truly be hypocritical (and contradictory).

I don't know really what to feel about that "6-year old" reference though. It is so darn typical to make that kind of comparison to someone who holds an alternative view, to make someone minor, take away their agency and "let the grown ups handle this".
I chose to negotiate that statement down to something like the 6-year old having an experience with his (so far in life) fairly unbiased, free thinking, fully creative and open mind, while the programmed, branded, broken-in father comes and plays the role of "daddy knows best".
I don't think you intended insult, but it is such a common rhetoric I couldn't help but react.
You are not totally off though, I'll give you that, and it is also because of that I cringe. I really, really hate to be nagging or appearing "impossible". Next course I'll take will be rhetorics so I can get rid of this bad habit. Thank you for making it obvious

My main problem has been discussing with someone who says that;
there is no "God" because it can't be measured, the so called "God-particle" is only there "to trick us" (it is not only present in humans but in all living organisms, btw) and that there are no such things as "sixth senses".
I can't get my mind off the fact that my opponent really thinks all that. It distracts the crap outta me and makes me feel like I am wasting my breath...(sorry to speak behind your back like that, Stere-o).

Reading through the OP I can't really find much basis for the more harsh comments (not only regarding Stere-o). But yeah, I see how the Mayan connection has been at least partly to blame. Would it have been different if I had posted this thread in another forum?
Post 122112 everything Mayan has really gotten into the kill zone. Mind you that they have more than just a chronometer in the form of a calendar; it is also connected to a rich mythology. I would lie if I was to say that I am an expert in it so maybe for the better I will not get into that right now....not saying I won't later on
I also tried to point out how 2012 was not an expected doomsday; I tried doing so throughout the thread and I did try to promote that idea before that date as well (not that it matters here). Just like that, 2012 is just as much in the kill zone by now...
My reference to it remains steady however: I experience the change, it just recently was the year 2012. That is my connection.
You say that "I should try to acknowledge" that there is no connection and of course I can try. Possibly there is no such connection- possibly. Possibly there is. It is also the year 1434 according to Islam, or 2557 according to the Buddhist.

Why do I then think that I am not alone in my experience? Because I follow world events and contemporary debates and see that there are shifts ahead in many different aspects of life and society on planet earth.
It is just how I analyze and conclude. Others may very well have different theories but this one is mine. Some won't accept any other theory than their own, and that is their problem, but no one can ever expect me to subscribe to anything else than my own, personal values.

(continued below)

reply to post by Nightaudit



In the OP I wrote that "it is in fact real" (the shift) and maybe that wasn't all to careful of me to write like that and of course I must be ready to be called on it. But I guess the messenger became collateral. The cosmos must me more selective with whom to send for this type of job!

When you say that we shall see the wonders in front of us I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, this whole thread is to illuminate those very wonders! People look at the world and sigh; nothing ever happens, everything is (mindless, dead-end) business as usual...nothing ever changes...WRONG! There is so very much more than meets the eye! We play a part in this cosmic dance, an important part! Open your hearts, tune into it!
It is something like that I would like to say
I too despise New Age; it is a strictly commercial phenomenon and even though whatever method or product "works" in the sense of at least as placebo (if you can imagine an effect) it is mainly centered around making cash from dust. New Age is something very specific and I most surely stay very well out of its way. It is just one other way to (indirectly) discredit spirituality all together and gather the unwanted storms of ridicule once again...
Bah!

I think that the main issues here really are that everything at least slightly related to 2012 is totally stigmatized by now. I got called on it and I could do nothing but heed to that call. It might be a suicide mission but I'll try to enjoy it anyhow.

That's if for now.

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by starfoxxx

 

i FELT IT.. I felt the change, it was not very swift, but very subtle.. There is no reason to think the change did not happen.

Great. Maybe you have an idea on how to tell if this is real or not.

You say you felt it. How do you know this is not wishful thinking?

Look around, mores law put the nay sayers to rest. This generation goes through so many changes while shifting into newer realms that not even the smartest collage grad computer engineer can keep up.. iT IS HERE..

Originally posted by Nightaudit
reply to post by OleMB

 

ALL of those experts that predict change imply that the world we live in now is bad. That something has to change before we can all be happy.

Well guess what. The world already is a truly amazing place, and everyone of us humans here has the possibility of being happy. Happiness is not a question of what dimension or age we live in.

THAT is why I seriously detest experts like that, because some weak minded people take that for granted and will be disappointed when the big change does not come. The change all of you are hoping for can only be done by yourself. And that is the beauty of it. We can change ourselves. We do not need another age for that.

Sorry for hijacking the reply here but I have to disagree. Even though this world is amazing in many ways, we face some major problems. The world is also an unjust, hostile and sick place. We got some major issues on our necks. You can't deny that. It is easy to feel comfort in the corners of our homes (not saying that I know anything about your living conditions) but much of what we take for granted is forged in blood, poverty and grave injustice. Not to mention the environmental exhaustion. Never forget that.

Mmmkay?

reply to post by starfoxxx

Look around, mores law put the nay sayers to rest. This generation goes through so many changes while shifting into newer realms that not even the smartest collage grad computer engineer can keep up.. iT IS HERE..

It's Moore's law. That informal law deals with the number of transistors per chip. It has nothing to do with the complexity of the devices, only the density. The claim that college grads can't keep up is false. That hokey claim was put out long ago by Tofler in Future Shock. The book's conclusion was a dud. People relish change. They can't get it fast enough. Look at how the latest technologies are swept up and accepted.

reply to post by Raud


Hi Raud,


thanks for your long reply, it is always nice to talk to people on this level even we do not share every viewpoint.

I will try to answer your thoughts point for point:

"The inca Cola":

If I gave you a blindfold and then three glasses to drink from. One with water, one with orange juice and one with inca cola. Would you be able to identify the taste? I mean you are going into semantics here. The taste of that friggin cola has nothing to do with the FACT that taste can be objectively measured.

If it couldn´t be then cooking would be a whole different experience!




"Everything exists in reaction to something."

I am not really sure where you´re going with this. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction, that is one of newtons laws. And I would agree. Not sure what else you want to say here.



"the 6-year old"

That reference was in no way directed to your point. Just the way the discussion progressed. Stereo always tried to calmly get back to the original questions, which you stubbornly refused to answer while getting more and more irritated yourself.

The whole scene viewed from my perspective was a little funny even and reminded me of that picture. I apologize if I have offended you.





"The whole dirty 2012 business"

I can appreciate what your basic intent was, and I am sure it was a positive one.

But try to see it from this point of view. Every prophecy and every date mostly imply something good for the world, ascension, awakening more positive energy, something along those lines, correct?

And you would assume that that is a good thing, right? Why wouldn´t it be, what could it hurt? Let the people hope in 2012 why not.

Well, there is a problem with that. First of all, hoping for change requires the mindset that the present basically sucks. If everything were ok, we wouldn´t have a need for the 2012 business. So most of the 2012 ascension "experts" paint the present a little darker than it is (earthquakes, fire, more fire, doom, floods, death and whatnot) and in some cases (enter david wilcock) paint the future a LOT brighter than it is.

What results for the guy who really believed in 2012 though? Dissapointment, frustration, self doubt and in heavy cases depression.

And that has been the case with every prophecy, every date and every guru so far who promised all will be well.

That is why I say the middle way is the best one. Be spiritually open, it can´t hurt anyway. Be open to science and rational thought as well, get everything into the picture. But as soon as one direction or the other starts to dominate your thoughts, you probably are not 100 % objective anymore.

That is why I am against these seemingly harmless "experts" that offer happiness and love. They are literally false prophets that can do a lot of harm in the long run.




"The wonders"

I couldn´t agree more. To some extent we actually do create the world we live in. But is more a being grateful for what you get than wishing for something geenie style.

Ironically, I have often thought that people who refuse the concept of god seem a little, uhm... dry sometimes. I think there is much more proof for some kind of intelligence behind all this as there is against it.

reply to post by Raud


Well of course we have some major issues, but riddle me this:

When was that magical time in our history in which we DIDN´T have major problems to overcome? Hmm?

We are part of a process, wars, hunger and unjustice will not stop overnight. But we are way better off than we were 50 years ago or even 100 years ago, wouldn´t you agree?

This has to be seen as a development, and I stand by my statement that I am damn proud of what we as a whole have achieved so far.

reply to post by Nightaudit


Hello Nightaudit and thank you for two good replies, I starred both of them

"The inca Cola":

This example is getting a little out of hand here but just to humor us we'll give that bottle yet another spin

OK, so the flavor molecules could be identified and turned into a syrup, sure. But the experience thereof, the taste, is up to someone with taste buds, i.e. a person. Without anyone consuming the substance and evaluating it, it has no real meaning. This is also where this example loses validity... On its own, the soda is nothing but an object- thus objectively existent. Still, the experience of tasting it is totally dependent on who the taster is; where does he/she hail from, cultural background, preferences, needs, etc.
Haven't you tried cooking some "ordinary" food together with a person of foreign descent, just to know that what you thought "everyone loves" is considered disgusting? I love eating exotic stuff and I am always up for something new and sometimes I am just perplexed with what people in some cultures consider good tasting. Even historically; what has been regarded as delicacies 200 years ago would never be put on our dinner tables today.
So, the soda might very well be there but that wasn't really what I was after. The flavor on the other hand does not exist until someone has an experience connected with it.
The same I guess there is to say about the things I see in this "convergence"; it is happening but some people see it differently depending on thousands of random factors.
That'll be confusing enough

"Everything exists in reaction to something."

I see what you mean but I am that kind of person that questions everything. What I meant is no easy deal to explain but it has to do with questioning dichotomies. Instead of building the world out of opposites, I see everything (and everyone) as an reaction to the preferences of its surrounding. Now we are back to the discussions of the "objective reality" and what that really is.
The only "eternal" part in this elusive and enigmatic "relativity" is energy, and that energy is what I think of as "God".
Please note that this is a looong story made very short.

Your apology of the "6-year old" remark is granted. It is funny sometimes how you make the posts "speak" in your head sometimes
I "heard" it differently.

"The whole dirty 2012 business"

The "business" around 2012 was, in my view, totally absurd to begin with. Maybe sometime when it was just surfacing I thought it was good to spread some awareness around it, but as it became to be about some sort of doomsday or anything that ultimately was going to go down on some certain date, I realized that things where getting out of hand and that it all was turning into a very typical expression for how people and society handles such an event. In the beginning as I started to hear about it, I might also have been a little carried away by how "grand" it was going to be. However, the more time progressed, the more I matured into understanding the concept, the less I was thinking about that specific square in my calendar.
Be it as it may, the date passed (like it mattered in the long run anyway) and people never got their explosions in the sky and decided to debunk, disregard and discredit something they themselves made up (the expectations). Of course that may have spawned a lot of disappointments but those feelings belonged to those who looked at the whole deal in the wrong way. As I stated earlier, that date 122112 was just a marker, symbolic in every aspect but not decisive.
I think I might be thinking about this "business" much the same way as you do.

Prophets of profit, so speak, is nothing I'd ever "buy into". There are, however some very inspiring people out there with a lot of good to say. You just have to remember that it is the inner voice that is the most important one. Whatever stuff other people listen or turn to for comfort is not my business. In that aspect, the universe is truly indifferent

I think, and this is the spiritual side of me speaking, that we create our reality in full extent. The thing is, we don't even know it so we just go with "default". Would we unlock the secrets within, it will be like Dark City if you've seen that old classic

Now to your second post;
it is very easy to become "speed blind" as we say where I'm from. And there surely has been many times in history a lot less "active" than what we have today. This I have learned from studying many aspects of human history, societal development and philosophical progress. The time since the industrial revolution has been at maximum turbo in so many aspects of life and it keeps getting more intense all the time!
I could give a thousand examples but I am running out of characters right..now

The book I quoted from earlier, Peterson&Runyan (2010) had one last gem to offer on page 260 (of 300).
Lo and behold:

The patterns that appear suggest in some ways an extraordinary shift in awareness of gender inequalities and a corollary commitment to improving hierarchical relationships between men and women through policy reorientations

Now this is exactly what I am referring to! The above is such a perfect example and mind you that both authors are university professors, totally mainstream, non-fringe sources of established knowledge and they do speak of stuff like "shift in awareness" too
I see these kind of statements all the time and I hear them from doctors and professors, politicians and experts in all kinds of aspects. And that is what makes me draw my conclusions that things are in motion, the shift in awareness is taking place and we, humanity as a whole is going through major changes!

Now why is it so hard for people to get this?
Yet another book had a hint (if you're in the flow, you're gonna keep getting served these things):

Fear of creative destruction is often at the root of the opposition to inclusive economic and political institutions

Taken from "Why Nations Fail, The Origins of Power, Prosperity and Poverty" by D. Acemoglu and J. Robinson (Crown Business, 2012).
It might seem a bit of take out of context, especially the latter part of that quote, but it really is not. "Creative destruction" is an expression coined by political theorist Joseph Schumpeter.
To make room for the change, we really have to get rid of the old stuff, the old perceptions of reality, the old values, all that has to go and it will go.
"Destruction" is a pretty loaded term though and people really gets scared by it, especially those with a lot to lose. They are so afraid of it they won't hesitate to project their fear onto everyone else in a desperate way to try to hinder the progress, no matter how useless and futile that might be.
Back in the days of the industrial revolution, men who had performed the crafts by hand went out to physically destroy the new types of machinery that put their work in the "past". You get my example? I see the very same thing happening this time around as well but now, it has nothing to do with a new way to weave carpets; this time is has to do with the way we think- a convergence of the mind.

I still stand by my OP

reply to post by Raud


In the OP you stated "The 2012 shift is by all means real, it is all whether you are interested in seeing it or not. It is of course an ontological issue, but I'd like to think that it is indeed really taking place (in an objective way). "

Do you really think that is the same sort of shift discussed by the authors you mention?

The author discussing gender inequalities appears to be be discussing an attitude change. I suspect they also point out that not all societies are moving towards equality. Do they describe anything other than progressive change that has been happening for decades?

reply to post by Raud


Hi there Raud and thank you!

And I am always up for another spin, you know that by now

I will continue the point for point style. I feel that works quite well.



"The inca cola 2.0"

I see where you are coming from with the subjective influence in taste.

I have to offer a slight variation of your point though. While it is absolutely true that a cola would be judged very differently by different people on this planet, the fact remains that they all taste the same cola.

To some that taste is pleasing and to some it may seem weird and sugary and not tasty at all.

The differences are more in the judgement of the taste imo, not so much in the taste itself.

Same goes with food. We all have eaten dishes that tasted horrible to us, but where the delight of someone else. I remember a special indian curry I had once hehe.

Still the dish tastes the same to both parties, it´s just that one finds that taste pleasant and another might think otherwise.

Some like asparagus, some don´t. The asparagus stays objectively the same though.



"questioning dichotomies"

Here is where I struggle to follow your thinking a little. You said this: "Instead of building the world out of opposites, I see everything (and everyone) as an reaction to the preferences of its surrounding."

I do not see how we only have those two options? Who is building the world out of opposites?

Anyway, I would agree that everything is a product of it´s surroundings more or less. I am just not that sure what you´re getting at here.

I am in agreement that energy per se is infinite. I think it would be fair to call energy itself god, I can understand that point of view. I do not think that we are truly able to define god though. and surely none of the religious gods is even close to the real thing. Whatever that may be.




"6 year olds"

Hehe, I can totally see how that can be heard the way you did. I didn´t really had to use that phrase either, so. Let´s forget it.


"2012"

Well, I agree with everything you said here. And I also agree that there are people out there who are really spreading good messages. And it can never hurt to listen to new ideas.

I do agree as well that we are part of a general "shift" in awareness. I would however see that as a logical consequence of the development of societies as a whole. The more connected we get and the more developed we get in terms of social needs being met and security, the better for all of us.

And we still ARE going through major changes, in fact a situation like this in unprecedented as far as we know. Technology has not only sped up engineering, but social development as well. Computers have made everything more efficient, and the development opens up new amazing possibilities every year.

We will live to see new organs being made specifically for your dna. We already see the beginnings of tourism in space. We have amazing things in our future. I can´t even start to think about what my xbox10000 will have to offer in 40 years when I retire!


Well, and to come back to your post and your last point. I think these destructions you speak of happen automatically over time. People with old mindsets destroy themselves over time, meaning they die out.

Society is a product of many individuals. I think we all tend to think that "our' way is the best way, and that we would get a lot better a long if everybody would do this and that.

I am thoroughly convinced though, that society needs these different points of view to a certain degree. I am convinced that it is an impossibility to aim for everybody. I think we as humanity will always have differences and our little problems to overcome. I think that could even be the point of it all.

So I have stopped to worry about the reasons for the apparent inability of the masses to understand certain thoughts. And instead I started to wonder if everybody is even supposed to have them.

Hello there Nightaudit, and sorry for the great delay in my reply. School, work and life in general has been less than willing to cut me some slack lately.

Let's unearth this battle axe and get to it!

"Inca Cola backwash"

OK, so this example I've set seems more and more to be a rather crappy one. At first I was thinking it to be sort of the zen concept of "a tree falls in the wood without anyone hearing" kind of example but it has apparently backfired. Fact is, I don't know what I was trying to prove in the first place even.
Probably it was about objectivity and I still stand by the idea that even though there might be some sort of objective reality the human mind is unable to perceive it and with the discoveries of quantum physics the issue reaches even higher levels of abstraction/confusion.
The soda does have certain ingredients, yes. They are what they are. But with no one tasting them, of what use are they? Maybe I was trying to point out that the experience sort of shapes reality.
Whatever, I'll return with a better example if I ever come up with one. Stere-O should also be acknowledged in this matter.

"Questioning Dichotomies"

Who builds the world of dichotomies?
How about every single institution that has ever made any matter to humanity, at least during the past 2000 years or so.
Noticed how women seem to have to struggle harder with employment? Man - Woman, Business - Domestic, Working - Caring, Provider - Dependent.
How about work in general? Man's job - Women's job.
Justice; Guilty - Not guilty.
Religion: Good - Evil, Heaven - Hell, Saint - Sinner, God - Devil, Believer - Atheist.
Politics: With us - Against us, Left - Right, Crusader - Axis of evil, Developed - Underdeveloped.
Human interaction: White - Black, Normal - Deviant, Boy/blue - Girl/pink, Either - Or.

I can go on with this for another hundred pages... It is good to hear that you yourself sees the world differently and tries not to see it as dualistic in nature (because it isn't) but you have to recognize that this is how the world is constructed, first by discourse and via that through lenses that create our "reality". This is the same dichotomy that has separated man from "God", creating the greatest diversion ever! This also connect to the convergence of 2012 because I believe that these "new" perception is really coming along with the new generations (and through cosmic influence, no matter how "un-proveable" that might be, call it faith if you will).

"Define God"

You are absolutely right. Trying to define what "God" is, as interesting and challenging it may be, it is kind of futile. To then go out and tell everyone how to define "it" is not very smart. Very much not so if the definition preached isn't even the result of long, individual and independent contemplation (rather than from reading it some place or hearing it from some other loud mouth person). This is OT though.

"2012"

Yes, the 2012 convergence is one in a long row of many and probably many more to come.
Ever heard of "tipping points"? I think that smaller changes or shifts accumulate through time and manifest in some major events. It is all a long process but it is not entirely even, to me it follows a sort of wave pattern and at this moment in time, humanity is reaching a new high. This is what I was trying to say in the OP.
Technology is only one aspect of our development and personally I think it has little more value to the convergence than as a vessel for spreading enlightenment globally. The greater part takes place inside our minds. Maybe the common threat of climate change is the real eye opener that we are ONE humanity inhabiting ONE rather fragile planet in the great vastness of the universe.
Along these lines I think of 2012.

About the destruction, I'd like to refer to Schumpeter's concept of "creative destruction" which you can read more about here (sorry for not providing anything more liable than ol' wikifakia but I think this specific article is fairly accurate).
"Schumpeter's Gale" might be a natural part of societal development but it is not constantly world war, communist revolutions and/or Arabic springs happening all the time. Those kind of events also has their place in the great cycles, on of those are happening now.

And to your last point;
I do agree and I have also been more selective in choosing my occasions and subjects for conversation lately. People are often unable to understand for different reasons and that makes them afraid which in turn makes them hostile sometimes. I am very certain and comfortable with the things I know. I've been building my argument for years, testing in, discarding the bad parts and improving the remaining with empirical facts. I just thought I'd author a thread to those like me; us who never saw 2012 with the "end" in focus. My ambition was to maybe spread some inspiration, that's all

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by Raud

 

Do you really think that is the same sort of shift discussed by the authors you mention?

The author discussing gender inequalities appears to be be discussing an attitude change. I suspect they also point out that not all societies are moving towards equality. Do they describe anything other than progressive change that has been happening for decades?

I am starting to see why this discussion has been what it has been throughout this thread; maybe we have been talking about entirely different 2012's the whole time and the sublime animosity has made the issues even more diffuse?
I do think that the authors speak of the same sort of shift because it is the sort of shift that I speak of!
What kind of shift did you have in mind?

In this particular case, it is not mere "attitude change" but "an extraordinary shift in awareness"!
Ever heard of a "paradigm"? Of course progressive change happens all the time but not as fast as it can now with the internet and all. Have you seen one of them timeline maps that they use to have in schools? Notice how the "ages" keeps getting shorter and shorter as history moves forward? That is what I am talking about and that is where 2012 is important as a hallmark for change.
Change happens constantly, at least in some aspect. Paradigms, however, do not.

Attitude is perception. Perception is reality. An extraordinary shift in attitudes is an extraordinary shift of reality. And this is happening now, and it happens to be the gregorian calendar year in and around 2012. Did the Mayans mean exactly the same as I do? I don't know, but their calendar also points out something to be of importance around this time. I'd like to make the connection based on awareness, gathering of facts and analysis, opening my heart to the spiritual influences.
That is how we got here and that is why I made this thread in the first place.
Hopefully I have cleared it up sufficiently now.

reply to post by Raud

sublime animosity

I'm not the one blowing a fuse over simple questions. I'm also not assuming that this is posturing based on a lack of answers which often happens. I assume you're just not used to be questioned about proposals you toss out.

What kind of shift did you have in mind?

This is not an issue about I thought this or you thought that. I'm not making any claims about the type of shift. All I asked is how do you know it is real and not imagined?

Ever heard of a "paradigm"?

Please drop the attitude and stick to the issues.

Have you seen one of them timeline maps that they use to have in schools? Notice how the "ages" keeps getting shorter and shorter as history moves forward?

This childish attitude needs to be dropped. It makes you look bad. If I wanted to be an ass like you I'd point out that history does move forward. Instead you could be cordial and explain what I probably knew long before you were born, the amount of recorded knowledge increases exponentially. Been happening since the beginning of writing.

Attitude is perception. Perception is reality. An extraordinary shift in attitudes is an extraordinary shift of reality. And this is happening now, and it happens to be the gregorian calendar year in and around 2012.

Repeating this mantra does not make it so. I think what is happening is that you are becoming aware of these issues and it has fascinated you. The same happens to every generation.

Did the Mayans mean exactly the same as I do? I don't know, but their calendar also points out something to be of importance around this time.

The Mayans were not "pointing" to anything. They leave no mention of this being important. It is only mentioned in 1 place.

I'd like to make the connection based on awareness, gathering of facts and analysis, opening my heart to the spiritual influences.

That is what I think is happening. It is a personal experience for you and not a general experience. You say "opening my heart." Your rocking with your buddies over this new understanding of life because they are of the same age and making the same personal discoveries. That's cool. There just isn't something real happening to humanity as a whole.

You've done an admirable job of making it clear that you are experiencing a great personal uplift that is not related to 12012. That's cool.

reply to post by stereologist


I see how my post could be read or "heard" in a different way than what I intended.
Let me be super clear about that I meant no offence, hostility or giving you any attitude at all. Those questions I made was meant just like that- examples put as questions.

No sublime animosity, ey? I had already dropped it but given the history of this debate I can understand how it managed to creep back here (or be somehow expected to be there).

I'll be more careful of how I write my replies in the future.

reply to post by stereologist


Back to the discussion (now with more scrutiny of how I put things).

How do I know this is not imagination?
Because at times I've thought it might have been but conclusions I've made over time tells me that it is more than imagined. I see that my theories does not match yours and I guess that is all cool. This reminds me of other such discussions of theories such as "is there a soul", "does God exist" and "are we being visited by an extraterrestial intelligence". Without positivist black-on-white we can go on beating this dead horse until one of us dies from old age. Personally, I think that is because you want it measured and statistically confirmed like that. Since I can't provide that information I guess my "conviction" is equal to your "imagination". I can be OK with that.

Does history really move forward in a linear fashion, in circles or is time irrelevant as Einstein would have said? I know the Hopi say that time is like a room and everything in "history" is taking place somewhere in that room, all at once.

Progression might be considered in the same way; the things we learn is already known by the great, timeless spirit of which we are all part. We are just becoming aware more and more with every generation. The revelations that rocked the world during the age of enlightenment brought forward theories that seem totally natural to us now. I propose that this new shift is something in that fashion but concerning a different field of perception.

The Mayans mention that in 1 place maybe. That is still more than in 0 places.
I'll look more into that since there seems to be grounds for continued investigaion with a critical eye.

Personal as this experience may be, it would be as relevant to me if it wasn't for all the sources I've turned to (as the above quoted, and others) that influence me to think the way I do. Would I build my argument solely on guessing and dreaming it all up- that'd truly be grasping for staws. I put two and two together and make it four. Your equation seems different.

You also make lots of assumptions about my age and not that it is very relevant but I would guess you and I are at roughly the same. At least we are both "adults" to the full extent of that title. Besides, all insights does not come with age alone.

reply to post by Raud

you want it measured and statistically confirmed

Not asking for measurements. It might be some evidence what is something outside of you, something that can be confirmed independently of you.

Strictly speaking statistics would only be involved if there was some sort of sampling.

The Mayans mention that in 1 place maybe. That is still more than in 0 places.

In that regard don't you think that if this was something important to the Mayans it would be mentioned in more than 1 place? The fact that it is even mentioned once sort of makes it unimportant. There are lots and lots of dates mentioned by the Mayans, yet this 2012 fixation of last year was on a single mention.

I'll look more into that since there seems to be grounds for continued investigaion with a critical eye.

There is a second mention of that same date, but from a different calendar. The Mayans used many calendars, at least 7.

Personal as this experience may be, it would be as relevant to me if it wasn't for all the sources I've turned to (as the above quoted, and others) that influence me to think the way I do. Would I build my argument solely on guessing and dreaming it all up- that'd truly be grasping for staws. I put two and two together and make it four. Your equation seems different.

That still sounds like a personal experience. These issues that add up for you may not add up for other people.

You also make lots of assumptions about my age and not that it is very relevant but I would guess you and I are at roughly the same. At least we are both "adults" to the full extent of that title. Besides, all insights does not come with age alone.

Maybe similar ages, maybe not. I do agree that age is not the source of wisdom as many people think. An interesting aside I read about was the claim that after a certain age people break d own into 2 groups: those that continue to try new experiences and those that do not. The latter is the larger group. Most people find a comfortable place in jobs, habits, foods, living arrangements, friends, activities. Others continue to look for new information, learn, new foods, new customs, new sports. I think you will likely be one of those people that see no end to the wonders of the world.

Originally posted by stereologist
reply to post by Raud

 

You also make lots of assumptions about my age and not that it is very relevant but I would guess you and I are at roughly the same. At least we are both "adults" to the full extent of that title. Besides, all insights does not come with age alone.

Maybe similar ages, maybe not. I do agree that age is not the source of wisdom as many people think. An interesting aside I read about was the claim that after a certain age people break d own into 2 groups: those that continue to try new experiences and those that do not. The latter is the larger group. Most people find a comfortable place in jobs, habits, foods, living arrangements, friends, activities. Others continue to look for new information, learn, new foods, new customs, new sports. I think you will likely be one of those people that see no end to the wonders of the world.

I can totally digg that

I'd also like to take the time and actually thank you fort this discussion. Without people like you, who can offer me a proper challenge every now and then I would probably become pretty full of myself (or maybe even more so, lol).

Still standing by my theory though