The Vatican and the Mussolini millions

reply to post by EricD


I knew this was coming and failed to prepare. I apologize. Short answer: I believe it is referring to personal growth & responsibilty. I will read it again. I believe we have many duties, father, mother, employee, boss but primarily two as the body of believers representative of Christ. And as an individual a Christian. As a Christian we hrlp others privately only you the individual and God know. As a body you do personal work to bring lost individuals to thd knowledge of Christ, hrlping them find healing along the way. Christ I think spoke to the individual, the apostles ministered to the body formed on Pentecost in Acts 2:38.

Please give to me just a little time. I will get you a scriptural answer.

reply to post by iESOTERICuEXOTERIC

When $26 million of Mussolini's money given to the Papacy went to German industry to build up their war machine and Hitler himself I would say probably not, unless you have no issue with the pay off from the 'investment' being stolen treasures from the dead victims of the Nazis World War.

A perfect example. The power of bishops and elders was never to be higher than the local autonomous congregation. They were to be men proven beyond reproach, husbands of one wife, etc. The apostles just like the founding fathers knew power corrupts, absolute-absolutely. They sought tk hedge it. If one congregation started to waiver to error only it had its candlestick removed. The whole body didnt suffer.
In true Christianity individuals have responsibility. Individuals have strength and allowed to grow through liberty.
In collectivism the head suffers thd body becomes weak and sick.

The apostle Paul called the gospel the perfect law of liberty. Hmm. Think about that. Pursuit of Liberty began 2000 years ago not 200.
Sound familiar?

Originally posted by sirjunlegun
The power of bishops and elders was never to be higher than the local autonomous congregation.

The problem with this is that, in practice, it leads to all sorts of problems. Religions which have a Congregationalist polity (the Baptists are the largest) defer to the local pastor to determine what sound doctrine is and what theology should be taught. Thus, we have tens of thousands of denominations, because every church in that system is a different denomination, completely free to teach whatever the pastor feels like, and it doesn't matter what their level of education or understanding of scripture might be.

Why doesn't the Westboro Baptist Church get kicked out of the Baptist church? Because they can't, by the definition of this type of polity. It doesn't matter how horrible they act or what ridiculous things they teach, because Fred Phellps determines what is "right" for that church.

Non-Congregationalist religions, on the other hand, can establish a standard that you either meet or you run the risk of getting kicked out. For example, in the Catholic Church, that's the Catecism; in the Methodist Church, it's the Book of Discipline.

hmmm, the Catholics are very quiet about facing the comments that came from the investigation into CIA and NATO achieves...not surprising seeing that it is basically the highest sources someone can pull up.

Let's recap the findings

- The Vatican invested its money into Hitler and had personal dealings with Hitler
- Hitler plundered the nations and its victims of their treasures and these treasures ended up mostly in the Vatican Bank or laundered by them to the Nazi war criminals they personally helped escape to places like Argentina

Thus the Vatican became the richest institution in the world from funding war and murder (and getting their Croatian priests to actively participate in murder of Christians along with much celebration and handshaking for those Croats when they then went back to the Vatican to see the Pope personally)

It's only gold, it's only wealth. These things really have nothing to do with the teachings of Christ.

The only reason the Catholic church should need these for is to insure the future of it's members in case there is a food shortage.

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
hmmm, the Catholics are very quiet about facing the comments that came from the investigation into CIA and NATO achieves...not surprising seeing that it is basically the highest sources someone can pull up.

You've quoted one book, which I do not own, so cannot verify anything that you've cited, apart from noting that Mark Aarons is a Communist, so hardly an unbiased "reporter" as regards the Catholic church.

The apparent objective of The Family File, the latest book of Mark Aarons, a fourth-generation communist, is to reveal what he sees as the betrayal of the communist cause and how the Aarons family sought to redeem that cause. The catalyst, seemingly, is Aarons’ gaining access to ASIO’s files on his family. However, one is left wondering if there is more to the book than this.

Another explanation could be that Aarons is seeking to ameliorate what history might say about his family. Indeed, at times, he seems to use ASIO’s records to validate the impression that the Aarons family were the “moderates” of the Communist Party. Given that Aarons says his father had devised techniques to try to avoid ASIO scrutiny and assumed that all their activities would be monitored or recorded, it is not surprising that he is able to do so. (Source)

In the past, you've made ridiculously wrong statements in your Catholic bashing, so I'm not inclined to believe that you've suddenly turned a corner and embraced non-biased factual reporting.

reply to post by adjensen



John Loftus: WWII Unholly Trinity - The Vatican, Nazis & Swiss Banks - Dave Emory 05'


This is an interview done with John Loftus (the person who had access to the CIA and NATO achieves) who happens to be a Roman Catholic (as mentioned around the 21:30 min mark of this interview), about the book in question. You can listen from about the 3 min mark onward. Enjoy!

In the interview you will hear often the name Allen Dulles mentioned (who was the CIA's first civilian director)...His nephew, Avery Dulleswas a Cardinal of the Catholic Church and a Jesuit Priest. Allen's brother John Foster Dulles was also a founding member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Chairman of the Federal Council of Churches' commission.

Care to comment now about your beloved...

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
This is an interview done with John Loftus (the person who had access to the CIA and NATO achieves) who happens to be a Roman Catholic (as mentioned around the 21:30 min mark of this interview), about the book in question. You can listen from about the 3 min mark onward. Enjoy!

I don't watch videos, sorry. Not just yours, I don't watch anyone's.

Care to comment now about your beloved...

My beloved what?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Well, I spent a little time researching John Loftus (there are two, by the way, the other is a famous atheist,) and your second "unbiased" author appears to be a pro-Israel agitator. (Source)

Loftus is basically a leftist propagandist IMO and someone who tries to make a buck off of letfy conspiricy theories.

He also has a book called "Unholy Trinity: The Vatican, the Nazis, and the Swiss Banks. This review talks about the same tendency to rely on unverifiable information and to ignore counter-evidence:

A key source of information in the book are intelligence reports by the Office of Strategic Services (O.S.) and other agencies. Yet information in these reports is often anonymous; it is uncertain if the subject is an important official with direct knowledge or just someone repeating a rumor.

The authors make no mention of an Italian journalist named Virgilo Scattolini. From 1939-1948, he made a valuable living by selling false information about Vatican affairs to intelligence agents, diplomats and reporters. Through his non-existent contacts in the Vatican, Scattolini claimed he got his information, which often reported verbatim what Pope Pius XII said to visitors in audiences. In 1944, the O.S. enlisted Scattolini, paying him $500 per month. He regularly fed them false reports about Vatican goings-on. Scattolini was also used by other intelligence agencies from other countries as well. In 1948, Italian Communists published two volumes of Scattolini's reports in "Documenti segreti della diplomazia del Vaticano" ("The Secret Diplomacy of the Vatican"). Scattolini was then exposed, arrested and jailed for six months. As Vatican historian Rev. Robert Graham, S.J. said, reports based on Scattolini's lies can be found in the various archives, thus creating a minefield for researchers. Several of "Unholy Trinity's" major scoops can be traced to Scattolini.

The authors write that the Vatican and Nazi Germany made a secret deal over Ukraine in 1942. If this was true, then there would be evidence in Nazi archives, but there isn't. The source behind this story is Scattolini. Loftus and Aarons also use Scattolini's reports that invent damaging conversations between the Pope and one of his deputies, Msgr. Giovanni Montini, the future Paul VI. The book's claim that Montini was an informant for American intelligence is also based on Scattolini's work. The authors consulted Fr. Graham for the book, and he warned them about "the Scattolini factor." Yet the authors used the material anyway, dismissing Graham's warning.

Scattolini and the embarrassment he caused the O.S.S. are discussed in several books, Graham's "The Vatican and Communism" (1996), Bradley F. Smith's "The Shadow Warriors" (1983) and Owen Chadwick's "Britain and the Vatican during the Second World War" (1988). Scattolini's file extends to 1,500 pages and can be obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. (Source)

There ya go. Your "unbiased" book was written by a Communist and a pro-Israel agitator, using a source that has been documented to be a fraud.

But you'll still believe it, of course.

reply to post by Cinrad


So was Mussolini buying an indulgence?

reply to post by Cinrad


It seems that the money you are referring to was given to the Church in recompense for land that was taken by the Italian government that belonged to the Church.

Some information can be found here:
en.wikipedia.org...

and here:
www.aloha.net...

This treaty was ratified by the Italian government in 1947.

Eric

reply to post by sirjunlegun



Take your time. It wasn't a 'gotcha' question. I'm truly interested in your opinion.


Eric

reply to post by Murgatroid

YIKES .. you are quoting a holocaust denial outlet as your credible source.
Sorry ... can't buy anything they say after denying the holocaust.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

YIKES .. you are quoting from a devoutly anti-catholic communist
Sorry .. can't buy anything he says after embracing communism.


Don't you all have some reliable and unbiased sources to quote? Seriously .. if the Vatican Bank was holding hands with Mussolini .. (and I don't doubt that they might have been) ... lets see some information from some reliable sources. The Vatican bank is dirty dirty dirty ... so give us the dirt from a source that we can trust.

Thanks.