Are we trying to figure this out ATS?

Originally posted by Jusvistn
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

maybe the drugs the health providers put them on. Seems to me that some of these drugs cause a complete loss of empathy in the child that takes them. They go from feeling overwhelmed and confused to feeling nothing at all. Makes one wonder what is worse. And how many of them actually need to take a pill every day? Is it really a necessity or a cop out because ppl don't want to deal with their kids? Should mental health providers be trying to get to the cause of a problem in a person first and then treat with meds if absolutely needed? Seems to me that they drug them up FIRST and THEN put them through counciling, which seems counter productive if the drugs are dimming their senses of morality and compassion. They can't get to the root of a problem and solve the problem if they don't even CARE about the problem any more. I've heard first hand from parents who "just can't deal with their kid any more and don't know what to do" but has never once tried to put their foot down and discipline the child, put their child on ridlin.

My wife and I had a large "discussion" on this over my younger son.
He is a lot like me and if something does not peak his interest he is likely to get distracted. It is something I have found ways of dealing with throughout my life.
She took him to the doctor, who sent him to a councillor, who put him on a mood altering drug. That I made him quit taking after a couple of weeks due to the fact that he was becoming a zombie.
They have not researched these drugs long enough to know the longterm side effects. Each person is different so they really can not know what the long term effects will be.
Quad

reply to post by wildtimes

I agree.
I tried to do these things with my boys while setting rules and boundaries. Children need structure in their lives to be happy. They also need to know that you understand their feelings and can relate to a certain point.

Originally posted by MidnightSunshine
One thing they all have in common that I forgot to mention, they are all male.

I need to sleep now but I'm going to start a list of questions. Feel free to add more questions to the list in some kind of order...

1) Age and nationality
2) Location of shooting (ie. Connecticut/school)
3) Where he grew up/lived
4) Any disease, disorder, or medical condition that started at birth
5) Notes on school experiences

BTW I'm not overly sensitive so crapping all over me or my thoughts (with out a valid point of course) won't bother me and will be ignored

edit on 15-12-2012 by MidnightSunshine because: (no reason given)

Here's what I found interesting about a possible connection from the case yesterday in Connecticut...

1. Adam Lanza age 20, Christopher Krumm age 25
2. Lanza from Hoboken, NJ, Christopher Krumm from Vernon, CT
3. Lanza shooting in Newtown, CT and Christopher Krumm shooting in Casper, WY
4. Both suffered from Asperger Syndrome
5. School experiences (?)

Two weeks ago (December 2nd), Christopher Krumm, traveled from Vernon, CT to Casper, WY to kill his father while he was teaching a computer science class at Casper College.

Christopher Krumm killed his father blaming him for the fact that he had Asperger Syndrome.

Vernon, CT and Newtown, CT are 60 miles away from each other, so the news of the Christopher Krumm killing was probably wide spread in the area where Lanza was living.

Adam Lanza kills his mother first before going to a school, where maybe she did or did not have an affiliation?

Would like to know what kind of medication both boys might have been taking for Aspergers and whether or not Adam Lanza may have somehow been trying to copy Krumm.

Here's something else that's interesting about school attacks in China...

A series of uncoordinated mass stabbings, hammer attacks, and cleaver attacks in the People's Republic of China began in March 2010. The spate of attacks left at least 21 dead and some 90 injured. Analysts have blamed mental health problems caused by rapid social change for the rise in these kind of mass murder and murder-suicide incidents.[1]

The choice of schools for most of the attacks means they could be copycat crimes.[14][23]

en.wikipedia.org...(2010%E2%80%932011)

For some reason, I can't get the link to attach properly, but do a google search for "School attacks in China (2010 - 2011).

The above link only lists the attacks from 2010 - 2011, but as we all know, there was a mass attack at a school in China yesterday where someone stabbed 22 people.

BEIJING -- On Friday morning, a lone angry man walked up to an elementary school and attacked the most vulnerable people he could find, children ages of 6 to 11. It was almost the same scenario as in Newtown, Conn., except this was in Henan Province, China, and the attacker was armed only with a knife, not a gun. He injured 22 children, but nobody was killed.

China has experienced a number of attacks on schools by men using knives or meat cleavers. The perpetrators were mostly middle-aged men who had lost jobs or homes. In 2010, nearly 20 children were killed and more than 50 injured in a string of separate attacks. In the most serious of the cases, in Fujian province, a knife-wielding man killed eight children.

The latest case took place in Xinyang City, Henan Province. The attacker was a 36-year-old man, Min Yingjun, who police said had psychological problems. He apparently took the kitchen knife from an elderly woman whom he also slashed. In aNOTHER case earlier this week in Beijing, a 25-year-old man was arrested for cutting young women on the subway. Police said he had been jilted by his girlfriend and wanted to exact "revenge on society."

www.latimes.com...

It is a hard topic,specially for those who have children about the same age,like me,theres a lot of this story that doesnt play with me, this community is a small one where someone said theres no crime,or bad neighbors,so why then ,just why she will have 3 or 4 guns at the house??...theres a saying 'if you have a gun is because your gonna use it'........so much pain,so much.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

You would have thought his mother who was a teacher would have had some sort of clue.

Yeah, you might have thought that. But teachers are not trained to be parents, they are trained to deliver lessons, maybe to develop rapport, and how to measure outcomes. I've known some really CRAP teachers. Also some CRAP parents. The two are not mutually inclusive.

I heard today, she had to leave her job to care for him, seems everyone around him knew he was hard for her to handle, seems many of these mass murderers are known by the community and nothing is ever done.

This could have been prevented,

reply to post by Deetermined


Why is this happening, has it always been like this but today with mass media we just hear more, or is there something in the water?

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Personally, I think it's a combination of everything.

One of the links above mentioned rapid social change. You combine that with mental health issues, the increase of prescribed medications, and an increase in media coverage giving people ideas that they might not otherwise have had, and it's a brew for disaster.

reply to post by MidnightSunshine


One similarity is they pretty much all try to kill themselves and if they were forced to use a different weapon it would not be such an easy thing to end their own live as well and escape persecution and responsibility. I honestly think these perps are such cowards that if forced to live with themselves after such a crime they would not attempt it in the first place.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Why is this happening, has it always been like this but today with mass media we just hear more

You weren't asking me, but, in my opinion, yes. We hear more about it all, but it's always gone on.

(Hi, Dee!)

Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

You would have thought his mother who was a teacher would have had some sort of clue.

Yeah, you might have thought that. But teachers are not trained to be parents, they are trained to deliver lessons, maybe to develop rapport, and how to measure outcomes. I've known some really CRAP teachers. Also some CRAP parents. The two are not mutually inclusive.

I heard today, she had to leave her job to care for him, seems everyone around him knew he was hard for her to handle, seems many of these mass murderers are known by the community and nothing is ever done.

This could have been prevented,

edit on 113131p://bSaturday2012 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)

Not to criticize the response here but in hindsight almost everything that isn't a natural disaster can be prevented. It could have been prevented if we had a society that had access to available mental health resources and care. It could have been prevented it we had a society that took responsibility for policing itself.

Causes:

Violent Culture

Violent News

Violent TV entertainment and computer games

Mental Illness Epidemic

Availability of Weapons

Glorification and lifetime recognition given to shooters.
They earn a place in history and some people do this to go out with a bang and have the world remember who they were - because no one recognized them when they were alive.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Why is this happening, has it always been like this but today with mass media we just hear more

You weren't asking me, but, in my opinion, yes. We hear more about it all, but it's always gone on.

(Hi, Dee!)

Maybe you should research this a little bit more before answering.
It has absolutely NOT always been like this.

I'm surprised no one has even suspected all the vaccinations a child gets now-a-days. My grandson has had 6 different ones (that I know of) and he's just 16 months old. I have no idea what the state requires to be injected into a child these days. When I ask my doctor about it, all she says is that they are safe. I can see changes in my grandson after each "jab".

reply to post by newcovenant


Wow so many great responses, i wish i had more time to address more of them.

So newcovenant, I like what you said here about violence and was wondering what you thought about Bluesma's post on the first page that starts out like this:

There's probably a lot of different angles we could approach this phenomenon with. One that swims through my mind is the taboo effect.

So they are mentally ill...so are a million others. WHAT is making these VERY few snap in the SAME way?? Something in the water??? LOL probably not or we'd all be gunned down.

reply to post by newcovenant

Maybe you should research this a little bit more before answering.
It has absolutely NOT always been like this.

My friend, yes, it has.

I do plenty of research, and violence and mass murdering has been going on for thousands of years.

I am also "qualified" to discuss human behavior - it is my chosen profession. There is nothing new about massacres.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by newcovenant

 

Maybe you should research this a little bit more before answering.
It has absolutely NOT always been like this.

My friend, yes, it has.

I do plenty of research, and violence and mass murdering has been going on for thousands of years.

I am also "qualified" to discuss human behavior - it is my chosen profession. There is nothing new about massacres.

If you are trying to say others have massacred people in history...well yeah you are right. If you are trying to say there has not been a spike in Mass Murders lately - then you would be wrong.

Psychology Today seems to agree so -
Are you sure you might not be mistaken?

www.psychologytoday.com...


Mass Murders Are On The Rise
Single death homicides are down while mass murders are up.

According to the 2010 FBI crime data, since 1980, single victim killings have dropped by more than 40 percent. While that's very good news, there's a new sobering trend:
Mass murders are on the rise.

This New York Times article researched the frequency of mass murders.
It found during the 20th century there were about one to two mass murders per decade until 1980.

Then for no apparent reason they spiked, with nine during the 1980s and 11 in the 1990s.

Since the year 2000 there have been at least 26, including the massacre in Aurora, Colorado.

www.motherjones.com...

It's perhaps too easy to forget how many times this has happened.

The horrific mass murder at a movie theater in Colorado on July 20, another at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin on August 5, and another at a manufacturer in Minneapolis on September 27 are the latest in an epidemic of such gun violence over the last three decades.

Since 1982, there have been at least 62 mass murders* carried out with firearms across the country, with the killings unfolding in 30 states from Massachusetts to Hawaii.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

I heard today, she had to leave her job to care for him, seems everyone around him knew he was hard for her to handle, seems many of these mass murderers are known by the community and nothing is ever done.

This could have been prevented,

Well, chances are good that yes, it could have. You and I (from my reading your posts) seem to agree on the lame access to services for the mentally struggling.

reply to post by Bluesma


Looks like Greenland has a lot of violence.
That's weird

Shopping malls/centers and schools have been around forever. I'm sorry I have done no research on the history so...

Let's say the 1930's, how many times in that decade did a lone gunman go to either of the above and just randomly shoot strangers?

I see evidence of mass shootings in homes, or workplaces, but can't seem to find people randomly murdering groups of strangers with little to no known agenda.

reply to post by Bluesma


Well, Alaska is part of the US. The map isn't breaking down state by state or province by province, so even if Alaska had the lowest intentional homicide rate in the US, it will still take the US average (or shade of color in this case).

I'm sure there are rural parts of Russia that are quite calm and peaceful, but...the whole country gets the same color.