Are we trying to figure this out ATS?

Can someone please direct me to a thread where we are looking at these mass shootings as a whole? Is there a thread where we are looking at what we know about all of the things involved in ALL of shooters lives and comparing?

Please don't reply with the similarity is the gun....

Thanks.

reply to post by MidnightSunshine

That thread would be here..... www.abovetopsecret.com...

I will try and start it off. This is only my opinion, nothing more.

I believe if we look we will find that the kids doing these shootings may have the following in common.
Disconnected from society.
Parents who want to be "friends" instead of parents.
Little to no rules or structure in their lives.
Outcast.
A need for attention.
I could go on but as I said, these are just opinions.
I think you are doing a good thing with this thread and I will keep checking in on it. I would like to understand why this is a growing phenomenon. Hopefully some will have more insight than I do.
Thank-you
Quad

Originally posted by Quadrivium
reply to post by MidnightSunshine

 

Parents who want to be "friends" instead of parents.
Little to no rules or structure in their lives.

I see this all the time nowadays...it's sad, people don't know that they're creating little sociopathic monsters.

Actually you bring up a VERY good point.

Instead of getting to the bottom of this

Everyone seems only interested in treating the symptoms instead of the cause.

Take away the guns, blah blah...

A couple search's that might help:

Google: root cause of all mass shootings

ATS search: cause of all mass shootings

There all crazy, all American and all have very easy access to guns.

But your right, let's all hide this real problem by creating a conspiracy round it. Something like the gov doing mind ccontrol so that they can take your guns. . .Yeah that will fix everything.

*I'll edit this part out as it's a huge generalization*

After reading some of the posts above, I hope you can understand that easy access to weapons in a society that is as volatile as America, isn't that much of a good option. things need to be looked at again and your policy and attitude towards firearms needs to change

reply to post by Quadrivium


Oh well thanks but I don't think I can do all of it, it would need to be a joint effort. We'd need to list them all, them we would have to come up with a large set of questions to apply to each of the mass killers, and then compare. That's a lot...

reply to post by MidnightSunshine


I think you would have to believe it is a social phenomenon to ride this horse. I don't believe that. Look, I had a horribly traumatic childhood and NEVER did I fantasize about taking a group of people out. So there is no common denominator. Look to all the kids abused by their churches. Are they turning into gun crazy psychopaths?? No, you cannot decide the causes and symptoms. You are pi&%$#@ into the wind.

Originally posted by n00bUK
There all crazy, all American and all have very easy access to guns.

But your right, let's all hide this real problem by creating a conspiracy round it. Something like the gov doing mind ccontrol so that they can take your guns. . .Yeah that will fix everything.

Americas blind ignorance towards this major issue is beyond a joke.

Who's creating a conspiracy? Not me. Just asking some questions. Why are they crazy? What do you think? Does just being an American make you crazy? Where do you live? Why don't you have access to guns?
reply to post by GrantedBail


Yea GrantedBail, you're probably right, but I can't stop thinking about it. I mean other than having access to weapons and being able to mow down innocent people before killing themselves....what else is there? There has to be an answer...

reply to post by Quadrivium

Disconnected from society.
Parents who want to be "friends" instead of parents.
Little to no rules or structure in their lives.

What do you base this judgement on? I remember reading a long story done on Kip Kinkel years ago in Rolling Stone. I was younger than so it had a lasting impression. However, from what I recall he had strict parents that were threatening to send him to a boarding school.

en.wikipedia.org...

At home that afternoon, Bill Kinkel told Kip he would be sent to boarding school if he did not change his behavior. At 3:30 p.m., Kinkel retrieved his locked-up rifle from his parents' bedroom, loaded it, and went to the kitchen, where he shot his father in the back of the head.

He waited for his mother to come home. About 6 p.m., as she walked up the stairs from the garage, Kinkel shot her twice in the back of the head, three times in the face, and once in the heart.

He later stated that he had wanted to protect his parents from the embarrassment that his expulsion would have caused them.[2]

The most recent story, the kid's mother was a teacher. There are plenty of teachers that are quite harsh with their kids. So I don't agree with your judgement.

One important thing to note, is that discipline for the sake of discipline is counter productive. Arbitrary rules are just as damaging as no structure at all.

Hence the whole thing about being "misunderstood".

Originally posted by MidnightSunshine
reply to post by Quadrivium

 

Oh well thanks but I don't think I can do all of it, it would need to be a joint effort. We'd need to list them all, them we would have to come up with a large set of questions to apply to each of the mass killers, and then compare. That's a lot...

edit on 15-12-2012 by MidnightSunshine because: (no reason given)

Midnight,
I do not expect you to do all of it, that's why I said I would keep checking in. I hope this thread will take off and many on ATS will chime in.
Quad

reply to post by MidnightSunshine


what about all the killing the cops are doingFamily releases dash cam video of a questionable death. (WARNING: GRAPHIC), page 1
one i just found that i think you should all see

just came to me why all these shootings are happening
its so thet can take your gun off you so make sure you have a stash
before your guns get confiscated

and MODS please dont ban me just remove my post and warn me not to put this in other threads

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by Quadrivium

Disconnected from society.
Parents who want to be "friends" instead of parents.
Little to no rules or structure in their lives.

 

What do you base this judgement on? I remember reading a long story done on Kip Kinkel years ago in Rolling Stone. I was younger than so it had a lasting impression. However, from what I recall he had strict parents that were threatening to send him to a boarding school.

en.wikipedia.org...

At home that afternoon, Bill Kinkel told Kip he would be sent to boarding school if he did not change his behavior. At 3:30 p.m., Kinkel retrieved his locked-up rifle from his parents' bedroom, loaded it, and went to the kitchen, where he shot his father in the back of the head.

He waited for his mother to come home. About 6 p.m., as she walked up the stairs from the garage, Kinkel shot her twice in the back of the head, three times in the face, and once in the heart.

He later stated that he had wanted to protect his parents from the embarrassment that his expulsion would have caused them.[2]

The most recent story, the kid's mother was a teacher. There are plenty of teachers that are quite harsh with their kids. So I don't agree with your judgement.

One important thing to note, is that discipline for the sake of discipline is counter productive. Arbitrary rules are just as damaging as no structure at all.

Hence the whole thing about being "misunderstood".

I see it many times all around.
A lot of parents do not get involved in their children's lives unless they do something wrong. It is too late by that time.
They give their children free reign and then do not know how to deal with it when the child does wrong.
This usually leads to a big blow up and a defiant child.
I have three teenage boys. They are happy and we get along great. They had rules and boundaries coming up. They know that their actions have consequences. They do not have to act out to get my attention, they know I am their friend but I am and will be their father first.
I think over disciplined children have different issues.
The traits of these mass shooters show a lack of discipline and boundaries.
As I said earlier, these are just my opinions.
Quad

One thing they all have in common that I forgot to mention, they are all male.

I need to sleep now but I'm going to start a list of questions. Feel free to add more questions to the list in some kind of order...

1) Age and nationality
2) Location of shooting (ie. Connecticut/school)
3) Where he grew up/lived
4) Any disease, disorder, or medical condition that started at birth
5) Notes on school experiences

BTW I'm not overly sensitive so crapping all over me or my thoughts (with out a valid point of course) won't bother me and will be ignored

Originally posted by Quadrivium
reply to post by MidnightSunshine

 

That thread would be here..... www.abovetopsecret.com...

I will try and start it off. This is only my opinion, nothing more.

I believe if we look we will find that the kids doing these shootings may have the following in common.
Disconnected from society.
Parents who want to be "friends" instead of parents.
Little to no rules or structure in their lives.
Outcast.
A need for attention.
I could go on but as I said, these are just opinions.
I think you are doing a good thing with this thread and I will keep checking in on it. I would like to understand why this is a growing phenomenon. Hopefully some will have more insight than I do.
Thank-you
Quad

I think you're spot on. I've also noticed a common age range with the suspects

Eh, 5 is pretty broad...probably need to break that down into a few clear question...yawn...

There's probably a lot of different angles we could approach this phenomenon with.
One that swims through my mind is the taboo effect.
Meaning, whenever a thing is actively suppressed, it takes on an even more sinister "underground" form.
Like people who are passive aggressive, or a country that has widespread puritan values against sex, but also the biggest porn industry in the world?
Attempting to fight something tends to make it grow bigger. If you hold a balloon with air in it, you can squeeze one end the other end will fill with more air and expand.... you can go squeeze that end and it will just expand in another part of the balloon...

I wonder sometimes if a collective isn't a bit like that (or even individual entity- but here I mean to address mass events). Where you have a huge movement condemning and trying to suppress violence to an exaggeration, you will find, in that same grouping, other areas in which violence blooms in an exaggerated fashion.

There are always some sensitive individuals who can't help picking up on the shadows in the society around them- the "nasty truths" that everyone is denying; the fake smiles, suff like that, begins to drive them crazy, because it is like there is a whole reality around that isn't being acknowledged, so cannot be mastered.
(you can only influence that which you own).

That's when you get the "problem kid" in the family who acts out everyone elses crap for them and they can say "See? It is not I!" These vents serve a purpose, in "exorcising" the demons from others.

I think this principle is relevant in the American culture, and especially as it applies to males in particular.
On one hand, there exists much pressure to be "manly" in terms of taking responsibility on ones shoulders bravely, and yet it is not recognized that with an influx of testosterone, you get violent urges.

And yet, violence finds no acceptable outlet! Verbal exchanges of hostile and violent nature are condemned, fist fights, anything of a hostile nature is unacceptable.

I hear often that americans find Europeans hostile. I find they will be verbally aggressive and believe that there is a form of "positive" aggressivity, that is constructive in the long run. Yet the idea of actually using a weapon is unthinkable to them- even in the case of defending oneself against an attacker. They don't have "road rage" incidents, for example. Maybe they get their inherent violence out in little ways each day?


When I was raising young children here, I could not understand the other mothers on play dates that would encourage their babies who would aggressively refuse to give up a toy, or push away forcefully another trying to take theirs.

When I expressed my surprise, they would say "Well they must learn some character! They mustn't learn to let others walk all over them! " Our lessons were all about turn the other cheek and say thank you if someone walks on you- it will make you morally superior to them.

But that has always made me wonder if the extreme forms of violence we see happen periodically in the US do not stem from this perversion- the taboo against any form of violent expression.

Originally posted by n00bUK
There all crazy, all American and all have very easy access to guns.

But your right, let's all hide this real problem by creating a conspiracy round it.

You're Wrong, but thanks for playing... Deny Ignorance

Mass shootings in Europe

The shootings in the eastern Belgian city of Liege and Florence, Italy, on Tuesday have several precedents over the past 10 years in Europe:

- September 27, 2001 - SWITZERLAND

A man bursts into the local assembly in the central Swiss town of Zug and opens fire, killing 14 members of parliament and local government then turning the gun on himself.

- March 27, 2002 - FRANCE

Eight local councillors are killed and 19 injured when a man opens fire on members of the municipal council of Nanterre, outside Paris. He kills himself the next day while in police custody.

- April 26, 2002 - GERMANY

Sixteen people, including 12 teachers and two students, are gunned down at a school in Erfurt in eastern Germany by a 19-year-old former student, apparently in revenge for having been expelled, who then killed himself.

- November 7, 2007 - FINLAND

An 18-year-old goes on a shooting rampage in a school in the southern Finnish town of Tuusula, killing eight people before shooting himself.

- September 23, 2008 - FINLAND

Eleven people, including the 22-year-old gunman, die in a massacre at a training school at Kauhajoki, Finland.

- March 11, 2009 - GERMANY

Nine pupils, three teachers and three passers-by are killed in a school shooting at Winnenden in southern Germany by a former pupil who then kills himself.

- June 2, 2010 - ENGLAND

Twelve people are killed when a 52-year-old taxi driver goes on a shooting spree in the English region of Cumbria, before killing himself.

- April 9, 2011 - THE NETHERLANDS

A gunman opens fire in a packed mall in the Netherlands, killing six people before shooting himself dead.

- July 22, 2011- NORWAY

A bomb attack on government buildings in Oslo that kills eight is followed by a shooting which kills 69 at a summer holiday camp organised by the ruling Labour party on the island of Utoeya, near to the capital. A right-wing extremist is arrested for carrying out both attacks.

- December 13, 2011 - BELGIUM

Three people, plus the gunman, are killed when a man, armed with grenades, opens fire on a square packed with children and Christmas shoppers in the eastern Belgian city of Liege.

In ITALY a far-right militant kills two Senegalese street vendors and wounds three people in a shooting spree in Florence after which he apparently kills himself.

Source

Hmmm ok, questions.


6. Current/Recent Relationship/Family/Work Issues?
7. Preferences in Media?
a. Violent video games, movies, music, extensive play or immersion?
b. Web traffic?
8. Criminal History?

While it might not be entirely possible to trace or even prove it is occasionally referenced, so..

9. Any link to 'conspiracy theories' or 'fringe concepts' ?

Might be useful to see whether there really is more violence in that country?

Looking at this map, what I noticed is that Alaska returns to the same level as the rest of the US, even though if between the two, Canada is less. That suggests a possible link to culture....(these are intentional homicide rates)



I couldn't get the key on here to read those colors- they're here


Notice number one is Africa, number two is the USA.

reply to post by Quadrivium

I believe if we look we will find that the kids doing these shootings may have the following in common.

I think the only common denominator will be an acute mental illness.

Disconnected from society.

Yes, but why? Why are some loners okay and others not? My guess would be that a disconnect from society was merely a symptom of a much larger problem such as an acute mental illness.

Parents who want to be "friends" instead of parents.

Sorry but this is ridiculous. Spoiled children can be jerks sure... but murderers? To be honest it concerns me a lot when people make leaps like this.

Little to no rules or structure in their lives.

Again, this is ridiculous. A child raised with no structure can turn out to be lazy or unwilling to conform to a course schedule or work schedule...

Look, bad parenting can lead to a lot of things such as being a slob or a weak work ethic. It can even be as bad as raising a thug, someone who steals from others or continuing a cycle of abuse. Even in extreme abuse cases, the children don't grow up to be murderers.

The level of insanity that it takes to be able to do what happened yesterday is pretty extreme and not something that can be 'caused' except by maybe ignoring or denying that a mental illness was so acute in the first place.