The folly of atheism

Originally posted by Klassified

Originally posted by homeskillet
reply to post by godlover25

 

why do christians always quote from the bible to atheists? you're using your belief system as evidence for your belief.

en.wikipedia.org...

Circular logic...

edit on 11/29/2012 by Klassified because: (no reason given)

Your circle of reasoning discounts the possibility that observations (the first step in obtaining evidence) were made and accurately recorded by the authors of the bible. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were first hand witnesses of Jesus ministry and at least three of them were killed for their belief in Jesus as the Christ. Men wilt in the face of persecution or the threat of death or pain and they will generally renounce their beliefs to save their own skin, why would the apostles die for a lie?

Unlike modern day church organisations, these men made no money from their preaching. They were beaten, stoned and insulted for their trouble.

Originally posted by homeskillet

Originally posted by Wonders
Monkey, are you sure you're not making yourself an example to the "zealot" about "permission to judge and hurt others".
Frankly I don't give a damn. It's idiots who think that humility means "putting others before ourselves" and usually scared of confrontation and judgement but only when it's directed at them.
Jesus got hit in the face for "talking like that", people were offended by him, he said that people get their "little" feelings hurt when you confront them about their faults that are fixable.
You think like most monkey Christians, so sure that everyone deserves to be treated the same, that's what you get for not reading the bible for yourself and being a monkey see monkey do type of person.

once again, another person upset because i used the bible to show the hypocrisy.
where are you getting that i think everyone deserves to be treated the same? i dont believe that personally but i am not following the son of god who pretty much says that. you know, the one who gets hit in the face. and also turns the other cheek.

so be strong in your convictions and get ready to get hit in the face mentally and/or physically.

and how do you know ive never read the bible?

Okay, I can either assume that you haven't read the bible or your reading comprehension skills are low.

Jesus did not say that everyone deserved to be treated the same.

The pharisees and saducees and the crowd who wanted to crucify him knew that Jesus wasn't going to die because he was a good ol boy who made sure not to hurt anyone's feelings, they wanted him dead because they were offended by him and what he said.
Here's a quote from the Son of God, this is what he said:

“If a brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault just between the two of you. If he listens, you have won your brother back. But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you so that every word may be verified by two or three witnesses. If he ignores these witnesses, tell it to the church. If he also ignores the church, then treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.” (Matt 18:15)

So you can see here that Jesus did not say that everyone deserved to be treated the same like you thought he did, so either you didn't read it or you couldn't comprehend, which is it?

Morality is doing what is right regardless of what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told regardless of what is right.





And 10 more good questions

I have asked this a number of times to many people of different religious background; yet to receive a rational response.

My question to believers of all organized as well as non-organized religions... Why do you believe that your religion is the true path and all others are totally lost? What appealed to your logic/common sense to make you believe that whatever written in your holy book is directly from God himself? In other words what proof do you have to make these claims other than the fact that your ancestors/community told you so?

And please don't give me the usual crap that "faith needs no proof" and "a true believer does not need to see to believe", etc. This question is only for the rationally thinking people.

Also note that I am not debating about the content of the holy books. There might be good things and/or bad things in it. But it is not an indicator of divine origins.

Note: I am not an atheist. I do believe in God; but not in religions. My concept of God is something like an all encompassing entity that is much above human ego. But I will not go into it now.

Originally posted by SambhavaamiYugeYuge
I have asked this a number of times to many people of different religious background; yet to receive a rational response.

My question to believers of all organized as well as non-organized religions... Why do you believe that your religion is the true path and all others are totally lost? What appealed to your logic/common sense to make you believe that whatever written in your holy book is directly from God himself? In other words what proof do you have to make these claims other than the fact that your ancestors/community told you so?

And please don't give me the usual crap that "faith needs no proof" and "a true believer does not need to see to believe", etc. This question is only for the rationally thinking people.

Note: I am not an atheist. I do believe in God; but not in religions. My concept of God is something like an all encompassing entity that is much above human ego. But I will not go into it now.

Let me tee off:

Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh on earth and I believe him. From my perspective this is how I perceive reality. I accept Jesus at his word due to the extraordinary number of witnesses during his ministry and after his resurrection. He fulfilled many old testament prophecies and the authenticity of the age of these documents was verified when the dead sea scrolls were found in 1947.

contenderministries.org...


I just posted this in another thread but it seems relevant enough to your question. I have only given a very short answer to your question because I am not sure If you are genuinely seeking an answer or just here to troll believers. I can add more to this answer if you are interested.

To judge whether a person is a troll or not is highly subjective. So you decide if I am one or not.
And yes I am looking for genuine answers. Unfortunately I didn't get one from you so far.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh on earth and I believe him. From my perspective this is how I perceive reality. I accept Jesus at his word due to the extraordinary number of witnesses during his ministry and after his resurrection. He fulfilled many old testament prophecies and the authenticity of the age of these documents was verified when the dead sea scrolls were found in 1947.

contenderministries.org...


I just posted this in another thread but it seems relevant enough to your question. I have only given a very short answer to your question because I am not sure If you are genuinely seeking an answer or just here to troll believers. I can add more to this answer if you are interested.

The statement that "I believe him" is what I said I don't want because it is not a rational answer. It is just what you want to or were conditioned to believe.

"The number of witnesses" is only mentioned mainly in the Bible. So it has only as much credibility as mass UFO sightings in Hollywood movies. And moreover the fact that the book is 2000 or more years old does not validate its claims. For instance, the RIg Veda of the Hindus is the oldest book in the world. Would you agree that it is more "divine" than the Bible?

Note: If you just want to believe, you can do so. I don't want to debate that. My question is to get genuine logical answers which will satisfy my reasoning and logic and make me accept that the religions have some base.

reply to post by SimonPeter

It's no skin off my back what you believe but it has been my observation that people who decide not to believe often have a ulterior motive for not wanting to believe . Sometimes it's their life style that conflicts with the commandments of God , or the tything thing . Then there are those that think they are the superior being.

Well your right some people don't believe in Christianity because its value system contradicts their own, there are a variety of reasons someone may or may not believe in something.

For the sake of argument lets assume my belief that there are no gods is wrong and I die a sinner, according to the teachings of the bible I am to be sent hell to be tortured for eternity (this of course is dependent on your interpretation of the text). Now I assume that you do not go around torturing people for disagreeing with your positions, because you have no right to do such a thing, and I also assume that you would think it immoral for any other human to do such a thing. So why is your god an exception? Because he created us? If that is true than yes our human ethical standards are superior to your god's, and I would go as far to say your god would be an evil creator. In the end the Epicurean paradox is still valid...

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

I am anti-authority, I believe that humans have the right to be free from the bondage of a bureaucratic government, from the oppression of a megalithic corporation, and even (while I believe it highly highly unlikely) the tyranny of some omnipresent, omnipotent, megalomaniac who fancies itself a god.

These people can not explain how life started on earth nor can the scientist , but Creation is dismissed out of hand . I'm sure you have addressed that question, I'm sure you wouldn't have overlooked that all important question . Because the answer to it holds the answer to your whole world.

Creation is dismissed because there is no evidence to back it up, not to mention that when creation is mentioned it is almost always has a Christian slant. Do you consider that the Norse creation myth may be valid and is worthy of investigation? How about the creation stories of the Native Americans? Or the creation myth of the ancient Japanese? Its a slippery slope, that is why we developed the scientific method, because we learned that word of mouth and subjective experiences cannot be trusted over raw data and experiment.

Originally posted by SambhavaamiYugeYuge
To judge whether a person is a troll or not is highly subjective. So you decide if I am one or not.

And yes I am looking for genuine answers. Unfortunately I didn't get one from you so far.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNutjob
Jesus claimed to be God in the flesh on earth and I believe him. From my perspective this is how I perceive reality. I accept Jesus at his word due to the extraordinary number of witnesses during his ministry and after his resurrection. He fulfilled many old testament prophecies and the authenticity of the age of these documents was verified when the dead sea scrolls were found in 1947.

contenderministries.org...


I just posted this in another thread but it seems relevant enough to your question. I have only given a very short answer to your question because I am not sure If you are genuinely seeking an answer or just here to troll believers. I can add more to this answer if you are interested.

The statement that "I believe him" is what I said I don't want because it is not a rational answer. It is just what you want to or were conditioned to believe.

"The number of witnesses" is only mentioned mainly in the Bible. So it has only as much credibility as mass UFO sightings in Hollywood movies. And moreover the fact that the book is 2000 or more years old does not validate its claims. For instance, the RIg Veda of the Hindus is the oldest book in the world. Would you agree that it is more "divine" than the Bible?

Note: If you just want to believe, you can do so. I don't want to debate that. My question is to get genuine logical answers which will satisfy my reasoning and logic and make me accept that the religions have some base.

I think you miss the point.

If the bible is verified to be accurate through the passage of time then we are left with the following possibilities:

1. The characters in the bible are just legend, a work of fiction, or greatly exaggerated.
2. Jesus was a liar and a deceiver along with his followers.
3. Jesus was a lunatic.
4. Jesus is the Son of God.

(The above is taken from C.S. Lewis: Legend, Liar, Lunatic or Lord?)

If any of the first three are true then a lot of people died for their belief in vain. All of the martyrs that clung to their faith in Jesus being the messiah were either misled or complicit in the lie. If these people had any doubt that Jesus was the messiah then they would have renounced their faith when they were persecuted or threatened with execution. The majority of them kept their faith despite this, were they all suicidal? Thousands of christians were martyred by the Romans and the Jews for keeping their faith in Jesus as their Saviour.

On top of all this, the teachings of Jesus make perfect sense to me in this crazy world. The sins of the world are heaping up, corruption is rampant and becoming more bold and in our faces with each passing day. It makes perfect sense to me that God would come down in the flesh and ask us to repent of our wicked ways.

I don't just 'believe' for the sake of 'believing'.



These two scripture passages sum up where we are today:

2 Peter 3:3 "Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following their own desires."



and this passage here is describing people that claim to be christian but their lives do not reflect it:

2 Tim 3:1-5 "But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God - having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.

I think religion is a manifestation of Darwinism in full effect. Can you imagine how many crazy, delusional people there would be on this planet if those nut jobs weren't killing each other wholesale over the last 2 millennia.... Eventually they reap all the hatred and intolerance that they sew... and eventually, like every other backward superstition, it will go the way of the Dodo bird.

IRM