May 1, 2003

So since I understand that there is reason to be skeptical of Icke's theory, I would ask one to point out some of those skeptical outlooks. Can one provide me so???

[Edited on 1-5-2003 by Abraham Virtue]

i always thought mayday was when you took a basket filled with candy and other goodies (called a may basket) placed it on the front door of someone you had a crush on. ring the bell and run. if they saw you then they were supposed to do something but this part slips my mind. but my little fantasy world has been smashed by the anti capitalist, communists that post here. if capitalism is so bad, and communism is so good, tell me why did the USSR fall apart in less than 100 years? answer me this one question with out an anti USA slogan, anti corporation, anti anything slogan. i have yet to recieve an acceptable answer to this, it alway boils down to "the US corporations exploited the goodwill of the people of Russia and brought it down in an effort to gain more market share" this is BS. communism fails every time because it leaves the people happy with mediocrity, and when that happens, advancement ceases. then when they take a look around at the rest of the world moving on without them, they want a piece of that pie and revolt.

this leads me to my next point. if you could take away the human desire to accumulate wealth, and have a bigger mailbox than his neighbor, then communism would work. however this desire ( i'd even agree it's called greed) cannot be taken from man, so therefore the socialist system will never be successful.

I am by no means rich. however with hard work someday i hope to be. in a society so obsessed with instant gratification, we have forgotten what it is to work hard for a reward. now everyone wants things given to them. that's not the way i was raised, and i'm sure alot of you also. so instead of whining and complaining about the "rich" put in a little sweat and tears and go out and reach for that dream, to not live in a shanty, earn minnimum wage flipping burgers, and not despising the guy down the street who worked hard to get where he is today.

here endeth the reading.

This post is not directed to anyone, just a general airing of my views.

A common misconception is that every socialist is a communist. You might as well say that everyone who supports capitalism is a fascist. Socialism is not communism, and although some people still advocate communism, I am not one of them. I believe that socialism can exist in a democratic format. Unfortunately years of media bias, cold war propaganda, and ignorance has placed socialism in the same place as communism in a lot of peoples minds.

The current mindset of most people (greed etc) is the biggest obstacle to any change, and I would never expect any sudden transformations.
It is only a problem of education.

To say that this is the way it is and it cannot be changed and that we should grow up is to lose faith in humanity and give up the fight for humanities emotional and mental evolution, which is ever ongoing. (Examples being the abolition of slavery and, more recently the downfall of segregation and apartite.)

I can guarantee in the 50�s there will have been people saying to the blacks �this is the way it is, you must grow up and accept it� & �people will never be ready for an integrated system�

You might as well tell Jesus to grow up.

The problems we face are ever changing. Our problem now is the love of money.

Everyone�s heard the arguments on capitalism�s effect on the rich and poor, and on the financial elements of the system, but capitalism changes our entire way of live and our society just as much as any idealistic, religious, extreme or fundamentalist system would. Only it does it with no fanfare.

Some examples of this would be:

The Music Industry, mainly the manufactured bands and performers. The rise of manufactured pop is a result of capitalism. The music industry is based on profit. The industry goes for the artists that take the least outlay and effort with the most financial return, and we get an endless steam of business sponsored musical whores.

Television. The increasing amount of crap shows and the general dumbing down of television are a result of capitalism. The station wants programmes that generate the most advertising revenue and tie ins, which therefore have to get a large audience share, which leads to the programmes being aimed at the lowest common denominator.


Family. Parents in our families have to work longer and harder than ever before, time off, maternity and sick leave are frown upon resulting in the degradation of there own happiness and mental health and also their children�s as their children�s general development as a result of spending less time with
harassed, overworked and tired parents.

Health and safety. Takes a backseat to the pursuit of profit. Every corner that can legally be cut in health and safety in the workplace and the practices of drug, chemical and nuclear companies is cut to maximise financial gain. A recent example of this can be found in the thread concerning the huge drugs recall in Australia. The implications of this are obvious.

The examples I could give are wide and varied; they range from agriculture to architecture (Farmers forced to accept a pittance in payment for their products from supermarkets that then sells them on at hugely inflated prices. Architecture of new buildings ands housing developments being built with only making profits in mind, the result being rows of identical, characterless, soulless, paper thin walled eyesores. I�m speaking for the U.K here, not sure of the U.S situation.)
But I�ve not got much time as I�m at work and I can�t be arsed, frankly.


All of these things interlink and combine to create
The me society. What we have experienced since the 80�s. The dictate that says greed is good and promotes selfishness, vanity, and intolerance of others for the sake of the pursuit of money. The cult of celebrity is a result of this (which links to the dumbing down of television) and a result of that is increase in anorexia, compulsive dieting, and obsession with self-image.

I�m kind of losing track of what I�m trying to say.

What I�m trying to say is that there is far, far more to the effects of capitalism than who works hard and who doesn�t or whose rich and whose not. It affects every fabric of our lives.

I�m not trying to say that socialism is the magic cure-all bullet either.

No party or political concept is perfect, but if you wait for a party to come along that entirely reflects your own personal views and beliefs, you are going to be waiting till the end of time. Take the closest to your views and work within it.

I am however completely convinced that capitalism will destroy either itself, or us.

Originally posted by kegs
I am however completely convinced that capitalism will destroy either itself, or us.

Well i think it�ll be use to control us...
Hypermaterialism (have more things that then rest does) and Hypercapitalism is what we are getting into now, so i believe for them to control population the best way is make everything depending on money, so or u have or u die, so u need to follow the system, therefore BE SLAVE!!!

Please all Communist, Capitalist, Imperialist, Socialist, Fascist, Whateverists leave that propaganda for the right circuits. This is about the holiday of May Day not the ideal of any party or politic. Am I wrong???

Originally posted by xaos
Seeing these poor working at three jobs, just to feed their kids, while CEOs relax in their hot tubs and mansions, oppressing the masses. I would be supportive of capitalism if it didnt hurt anyone but admit it TC, in capitalism 99% of the people lose, while only 1% really wins (these are just offhand numbers).
XAOS

I agree that there are those of us working hard veryday for just an average living while well-to-dos relax in their hot tubs. But I know a few CEOs and they are still working long after I have went home for the day to spend the evening with my family. They handle business 24/7 day and night and still seem to do just marginally better than I and my family. Not saying there aren't people who have inherited millions and have never known work..like Liza, for example but for anyone who, like the people I know, have built a business on an idea and sweat and tears, if the have a hot tub, you can bet they probably don't get to spend much time in it. But if they do all that for their family to enjoy, I have to say thats dedication. The well-to-dos, I see mostly as you describe above, are in Washington DC hot tubbing with in-terns and socialites. See, I think the way the US is going, only 1 % of the people are really benefitting but they aren't really the businessmen, they're the government and they, as a business grow larger than any other private corperation every year while wasting more and more. When a company works this way, they aren't around long, when the government works this way, they raise taxes to compensate so we all really pay for their lush lifestyles. So, I think what we see in America today isn't really the result of capitalism because capitalism is going away and socialism is creeping in. Socialism has always been good if you're the one at the top. In my opinion, socialism lacks one very important aspect and that reward for excellence and effort. In our society today, a good idea that makes money is met with punishment and penalties in the form of a higher tax %. How can we expect to grow as a people when we fine people for suceeding? So, take a good look in the hot tub next time, I think you'll find your local politician in there.

Originally posted by astrocreep
But I know a few CEOs and they are still working long after I have went home for the day to spend the evening with my family. They handle business 24/7 day and night and still seem to do just marginally better than I and my family.

Oh, the capitalist has his anxieties too. And the worker has often a good time.
We, who toil from early morn till late at night, from January till December, from childhood to old age, have no care or trouble or mental anxiety to cross our mind - except the landlord, the fear of loss of employment, the danger of sickness, the lack of common necessities, to say nothing of luxuries, for our children, the insolence of our superiors, the unhealthy condition of our homes, the exhausting nature of our toil, the lack of all opportunities of mental cultivation, and the ever-present question whether we shall shuffle off this mortal coil in a miserable garret, be killed by hard work, or die in the Poorhouse.

With these trifling exceptions we have nothing to bother us; but the boss, ah, the poor, poor boss!

He has everything to bother him. Whilst we are amusing ourselves in the hold of a ship shoveling coal, swinging a hammer in front of a forge, toiling up a ladder with bricks, stitching until our eyes grow dim at the board, gaily riding up and down for twelve hours per day, seven days per week, on a trolley car, riding around the city in all weather with teams or swinging by the skin of our teeth on the iron framework of a skyscraper, standing at our ease OUTSIDE the printing office door listening to the musical click of the linotype as it performs the work we used to do INSIDE, telling each other comforting stories about the new machinery which takes our places as carpenters, harness-makers, tinplate-workers, laborers, etc., in short whilst we are enjoying ourselves, free from all mental worry.

Our unselfish tired-out bosses are sitting at home, with their feet on the table, softly patting the bottom button of their vests.

Working with their brains. Poor bosses! Mighty brains!

Without our toil they would never get the education necessary to develop their brains; if we were not defrauded by their class of the fruits of our toil we could provide for education enough to develop the mental powers of all, and so deprive the ruling class of the last vestige of an excuse for clinging to mastership, viz., their assumed intellectual superiority.
...
As education spreads among the people the workers will want to enjoy life more; they will assert their right to the full fruits of their labor, and by that act of self-assertion lay the foundation of that Socialist Republic in which labor will be so easy, and the reward so great, that life will seem a perpetual holiday.

src: www.geocities.com...

Fine, give all power and allegiance to a government who does nothing to earn it. Take away the rewards for success and see how far technology advances, see how far medical research goes when we pay doctors 30 grand a year and expect them to borrow a half million for school and stand at risk for unlimited laws suits. You can tax and tax and legislate all their stuff while its there but where's it all gonna come from when nobody thinks its worth it to open a business. Are we all to live in communities resembling storage facilities in communites with no paychecks just our devotion to the top fat cats in the government and a bowl of gruel everynight? Sorry but I want the chance to better myself, to be rewarded when I work hard and not to have my acheivements taken away and divided among those who had no hand it bringing them about...and so does everybody else because we've seen the result of what you preach once the iron curtain fell. You're entitled to your opinion of what your life should be and you're welcome to it but it seems to hinge on forcing everyone else to go along to. Good luck in that endeavor.

I do believe that all the people that have posted have a point.

Consider this though, Even if we had the most perfect government (their is no such thing), the people would mess it up, its human behavior to destroy and be greedy. Their is no such thing as a better government. All of them have their good points and bad.

"Only Time will tell" - I would say.

Right now it seems that the best are: The race is off
Democracy followed closely by
Socialist Ranking third is
Communism around the corner in fourth is
Facisism followed by a
Monarchy and in last
Despotism.

We all bitch, and in the end thats all were going to do.

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG, let me guess,

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue
Please all Communist, Capitalist, Imperialist, Socialist, Fascist, Whateverists leave that propaganda for the right circuits. This is about the holiday of May Day not the ideal of any party or politic. Am I wrong???

The holiday of May Day is afiliated with with the proletarat and communist parties. It may have once been a pagan fest, but now it has become the workers day off. If it wasnt afiliated with politics would things like THIS have happened? If echelon posts something then you better believe it has something to do with communism. Why do you think this whole discussion on leftism originated if it has nothing to do with May Day (also known as Labor Day in all countries but America, which considers it a communist celebration).

XAOS

Originally posted by FoxStriker
its human behavior to destroy and be greedy. Their is no such thing as a better government.

'communism may in some sense ignore the existence of greed. however, capitalism makes greed a virtue.'

Originally posted by echelon

Originally posted by FoxStriker
its human behavior to destroy and be greedy. Their is no such thing as a better government.

'communism may in some sense ignore the existence of greed. however, capitalism makes greed a virtue.'

Not only communism, but anyway capitalism is one of the systems that divides the people in "types" all based in materialism and $, so shallow.....
Greed is extreme in a capitalism system, but also in any system that has people above another...
We all work 8h a day 5 days a week till 65 yers old...
But ppl lives in mansions and in other countries there is childs working 12h a day for 5$ a day....
The difference between all the systems in the world are worst than have only one type that's for sure...

quote:
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Originally posted by FoxStriker
its human behavior to destroy and be greedy. Their is no such thing as a better government.
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'communism may in some sense ignore the existence of greed. however, capitalism makes greed a virtue.'
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Communism does ignore the existence of greed, BUT, the people don't.

The reason that capitalist have it better is that it lets greed be a virtue and combined with the fact that all capitalism is doing is exposing human behavior to a government, it allows the government to become powerful. Thats why communism was so corrupt, because people couldn't except the fact of being equal to one another.

No one would except the programming, entire crops were lost. - The Matrix

No different from communism!!

Communism is good if humans were robots.

[Edited on 5/2/2003 by FoxStriker]

Originally posted by FoxStriker
The reason that capitalist have it better is that it lets greed be a virtue and combined with the fact that all capitalism is doing is exposing human behavior to a government... Thats why communism was so corrupt, because people couldn't except the fact of being equal to one another.

so it's all right for greed to exist... because it's human nature? or maybe because people are insecure.
especially under a system which cannot guarantee any form of stability to the people.

equality isn't much of an issue... i don't think anyone can object if they were told that they were capable of doing the same things as the person next to them was capable of. besides, the soviet style, pseudo-communist governments couldn't even provide this form of equality... they didn't fail because people don't like being equal to another.

sure... we can always try and reach our potential under a capitalist system... but at the expense of whom?
someone must always lose, in order for you to succeed.
and realistically... what are the chances of an individual actually reaching that point in life where they can determine that they have done all they needed to do in life?
under these conditions, the exploited aims to become the exploiter; and all they can do is dream.
while under a socialist gov't we can do our part in advancing the collective will of the masses, and still be free to do whatever we choose.
the conditions can very quickly manipulate one's 'nature'.

Answer me this, How can a person be an Individualist in communism, Since you say that we would all be equal. What if a person works harder than another, but get paid the same. Communism is a good idea, but thats all it is. They tried it, and it failed. The only reason communism is still around is because its not communism at all, its facist government. The proof is right their, Just look for yourself.

Great things have been made by people that are Individualist. You wouldn't be here posting if it wasn't for Bill Gates Individual Silicon Chip Idea. So What Communism does is take our God given right to think freely and differently.

Communism is a perfect government. How can you apply it to a non- perfect people.

Originally posted by FoxStriker
Answer me this, How can a person be an Individualist in communism, Since you say that we would all be equal. What if a person works harder than another, but get paid the same. Communism is a good idea, but thats all it is. They tried it, and it failed. The only reason communism is still around is because its not communism at all, its facist government. The proof is right their, Just look for yourself.

workers don't get paid the same. it's all based on skill level. and gov't authorities don't get paid any more than a high ranking worker.

... and i am also aware that current 'communist' governments aren't communist. atleast bbc has the dencency in saying they are 'stalinist'. they all derived from the soviet union, which itself was defective. no actual modern day socialist would ever approve these nations of ever being communist.

Originally posted by Abraham Virtue
Okay whatever May Day is offically communist.

link: directory.google.com... /Top/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Pagan/Wicca/Online_Book_of_Shadows/Sabbats/Beltane/

Echelon:

A few facts to consider:

There has not been a single operational successful communist state that has existed in history that was democratic in nature. Why? If democracy existed, communism was voted out by the people. Why? Because it didnt work.

The communist states that do exist are largely totalitarian in nature. Why? I would propose simply because totalitarianism is the only method by which communism works.