Challenge Match: SonoftheSon vs Signals: Are the Illuminati still holding an influence nowadays?

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posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 07:49 PM
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Thank you ATS, Moderators and everyone involved for making these challenges possible.

Before I begin this debate, I also wish to thank Signals for agreeing to venture on such a controversial topic. And the Illuminati is a controversial subject!


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[align=center][color=gold]Are the Illuminati still holding an influence nowadays?[/align]

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Opening Statement




Dear viewers,

As Signals will try to show you that the Illuminati still holds an influence, it is my intention to show the absolute opposite. There is no doubt that anything regarding the Illuminati is still a fascinating subject to read about, to write about and to talk about. I mean, who hasn’t heard about the Illuminati?

Perusing ATS threads should convince anyone that the Illuminati is still very much talked about. From the Illuminati Card game revealing catastrophes in advance, to evil world plots as was shown in many London Olympic threads.

Not without being founded, as the Illuminati did really exist, more than 200 years ago, I would nevertheless advise the viewers to take certain myths with a grain of salt.

en.wikipedia.org...


And there are numerous myths:


• The Symbolism. The All Seeing Eye being derived into plenty of pyramid claims, from corporate logos to London Olympic Stadium lights is just an example. Dan Brown has expanded on this symbol but at least he has mentioned that it was fiction. That is just one example.

• The Musical Myth. Well, here’s a eyeful !! (no pun intended) From Madonna doing a satanic Illuminati ritual at the Superbowl halftime show to Lady Gaga doing an Illuminati blood ritual in her bath... The myth that the Illuminati is controlling the musical industry in general makes for a good read, in tabloids such as the National Inquirer but this is about as real as it gets.

• The Cinema Myth. Now this one, I could use up multiple posts just to scratch the surface. The Illuminati is also controlling the cinematographic industry, from A to Z. From actors being part of the plot, to movies trying to brainwash you through hidden symbolism that only the expert eye will catch. Experts that mostly reside, unfortunately, on conspiracy theories forums.

• Political myths. JFK and his controversial secret society speech has sparked more intellectual assumptions and debates than what he bargained for. All presidents and prime ministers, nowadays, in most countries, are seen as puppets being controlled by a higher power up. While I do not deny that they no longer hold the power that they used to presumably have, I won’t trade an Illuminati presumption over a corporate, military and banking grab.

• The Corporate, Military and Banking Grab. Money and Power is the game. While many societies are indeed trenched in secret folds and agendas, the Illuminati is no longer part of it, and hasn’t for centuries. There are a few families on top of the pyramid, that control many political areas but their greedy and evil ways aren’t a secret. Narcissistic filthy rich individuals that couldn’t care less about secret societies, unless it helps to favor their only purpose in life...their bank accounts.

• The Powers That Be. Not a myth. Not the Illuminati either.

• The Bloodlines. Here’s an interesting facet. But I am yet to see anyone going back to the Illuminati’s humble beginnings with links and sources to back them up without holes and gaps.


But there’s more. There are many videos and testimonies out there about whistle blowers spilling the sacred secret beans. I have to admit, they are all entertaining. From baby sacrifices under the Vatican to political families being so far deep the rabbit hole that it makes Santa Claus look like he’s legit.

My point is that there are still secret societies out there. Freemasons, S&Bs, Shriners, Knights of Columbus, OTOs, Rosicrucians, Les Filles d’Isabelle and so many others. Are they all bad and evil? Of course not. As a matter of fact, most of them are implementing values to better the individual in his ways and in his life. Yes, there are bad ones, like anything else. But the Illuminati is neither of those. Nor good, nor bad. They’re long gone.

The only influence they still have is to feed interesting stories.

Thank you for reading.
edit on 9-10-2012 by Skyfloating because: Title Edit




posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 09:16 PM
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Thank you SonoftheSon for allowing me to participate in this debate, and thank you ATS for allowing this type of forum to flourish. I'm really excited as this is my first debate.

~ Opening Thoughts ~

Through my responses I wish to show to you that members of this secret society most assuredly influence our daily lives.

Anybody have a dollar bill? Take a look at the back.



This is the back of the Great Seal of The United States. It states novus ordo seclorum ("new order of the ages" in Latin) This seal was designed in 1782, just a short 6 years after Adam Weishaupt founded The Order of the Illuminati, in Upper Bavaria, Germany, in May of 1776.

One cannot deny the influence the almighty dollar has on our lives, arguably mostly negative. It is the whip behind the slaves, so to speak. It spawns dreams, but crushes most.

It is the very root of Evil.

Through this debate I will show that the Illuminati is not merely a Dan Brown hot book of the week subject, it is a real, current force, a cabal of very powerful people that are Hell-bent on our destruction and/or subservitude towards them.

I will attempt to connect some of the influences thrust upon our Forefathers to what we have as an end result today.

I will also show these forces flaunt their perceived dominance over us through our media as well.

Here is a small example (don't laugh) but straight from the minds of Disney. A clear message in a cartoon that states "ask about Illuminati" - pause the video at :16 - Source

Thanks again and I look forward to your response.

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posted on Oct, 9 2012 @ 08:56 AM
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Signals, I really enjoy having the honor of congratulating you for your first debate and for coming out with a very interesting opening statement!


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On the trail of the Illuminati




Dear viewers,

The Great Seal of the United States is without a doubt, a meaningful symbol. Although interpretations are many, it is important to understand its real purpose.

An All Seeing Eye on top of a pyramid could easily be seen as an “Elite” watching over us all. The Big Bad Powers That Be. Or the eye of Horus watching over mankind. While I find these ideas romantic, they only serve to validate conspiracy theories. The original meaning of the Seal is not from a negative and evil overtone but from a very positive point of view.

Above the eye, it is stated “Annuit Coeptis” that translates to “He has favored our undertakings”. The eye represents God, the Creator, shedding rays of light and love while overlooking the birth of America. To fully understand the profound meaning of the Seal, one has to look back in the past, in 1776. “Novus Order Seclorum” as my esteemed opponent has mentioned, translates to “A new order of the ages”. This is not to be misinterpreted as a new world order but as a new nation taking birth, the birth of America. The roman numerals, at the bottom of the pyramid translate to 1776, the year of independence.

FDR took the decision to put the symbol on the dollar bills. Not to promote the Illuminati but to highlight the birth of a Great Nation. This symbol does have an influence over conspiracy theories but the symbol is not an influence over the masses. The currency is. As much as Queen Elizabeth would like to have an influence on the masses, as her picture is on all our Canadian bills, she doesn’t. The currency is. Nevertheless, I will agree that money is the root of all evil. The love of money, that is.

I have really enjoyed the cartoon. Good catch. But I lack to understand the point. “Ask the Illuminati” could have been a prank by its designer, or an inside bet, a dare or simply, just for fun. While it’s a Disney carton, I would put that one with the Cinema myths, along with thousands of other hints in movies throughout the last century. Hints to what though; is anyone’s guess and simply reside in the eyes of the beholder.

I find it quite amazing that the Illuminati propaganda is served with all sauces. I do think that George Johnson, a news reporter in Minneapolis at the time, hit the nail right on its head.

Originally, the Illuminati Order was founded by young Professor Weishaupt as a tool to enlighten new philosophies that went against mainstream beliefs in religion and promoting equality for all men, an ideal that didn’t please the Royalty. As his order grew and then was decimated for trying to overthrow the Bavarian government, they somehow found a way to infiltrate some Masonic lodges but it wasn’t long before the very Illuminati ideology evaporated. The Illuminati was done and over with. But paranoia, gained a new friend. As Johnson so eloquently says:


In the end, the church and the royalty easily triumphed. Responding to all kinds of fantastic accusations, the government quashed Weishaupt's order less than a decade after it was founded.

The Illuminati conspiracy, such as it was, ended. And the Illuminati conspiracy theory had begun.


And the Illuminati conspiracy theory is still well and alive, nowadays, but it only remains a theory. The facts have long left the ship.

Dan Brown has played a key part in reviving the paranoia. “Angels & Demons” is a work of fiction but it has fueled and inspired many writers, writers that have made a profit from the Vatican / Illuminati connection, that ironically was everything but what the real Illuminati stood for. Conflicting, isn’t it?

Johnson concludes:


Promoting conspiracy theories turns out to be much more profitable than debunking them, another reason this mania will never go away.


I absolutely and totally agree!! I would highly recommend reading the Johnson link supplied below ( PDF ) as it is a remarkable and factual research.


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What do the symbols on the U.S. $1 bill mean?

On the Trail of the Illuminati:
A Journalist's Search for the “Conspiracy That Rules the World"


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Thank you for reading.



posted on Oct, 15 2012 @ 06:54 PM
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The Rothschild / Illuminati Connection



One cannot deny the influence the Rothschild family has had on the world banking system....spanning back hundreds of years, through today.

In 1743 a goldsmith, Amschel Moses Bauer, opened a coin shop in Frankfurt, Germany. Above the shop's door he hung a sign depicting a Roman eagle on a red shield. The shop became known as the Red Shield firm. The German word for 'red shield' is Rothschild. Amschel Bauer had a son, Meyer Amschel Bauer. Meyer became astute in the business of banking and finance, and worked for the Oppenheimers.

His success allowed him the means to return to Frankfurt and to purchase the business his father had established in 1743. The big Red Shield was still displayed over the door. Recognizing the true significance of the Red Shield, Mayer Amschel Bauer changed his name to Rothschild (red shield). This is how the House of Rothschild came in to being.

Meyer Rothschild realized that, in order to take control of the majority of the world's wealth, he would need to take down the world's church (Catholicism)..... In comes our friend, Adam Weishaupt, a Catholic priest.

In 1775, when summoned by the House of Rothschild, they joined forces and began to organize the Illuminati.

In 1785, Meyer moved his entire family to a five story dwelling he shared with the Schiff family. In 1865 the Schiffs' grandson Jacob would move to New York and in 1917 become the mastermind behind the funding of the Bolshevik Revolution. This action would successfully instate Communism as a major world movement.

Meyer had several successful sons, the most of which was Nathan Meyer Rothschild.

The Federal Reserve Act was the brainchild of Baron Alfred Rothschild of London.

Baron David René James de Rothschild, is the current chairman of Rothschild Continuation Holding, and is the former chairman of De Beers.

I could go on and on about the current influence the Rothschild family has over financial transactions, worldwide, but I don't want to seem redundant.

Some interesting quotes:



"Permit me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who makes its laws."
- Nathan Meyer Rothschild.



"I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man who controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply."
- Nathan Meyer Rothschild.



We are like the mechanism of a watch: each part is essential.
- Nathan Meyer Rothschild

Thanks for reading.

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posted on Oct, 23 2012 @ 03:20 PM
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First and foremost, my sincere apologies to Signals, to the staff and to the members for the long delay. An out of control internet situation had forced me offline for a week. This has been an awesome debate so far and I am really happy to get back to it.



The Illuminati Connections...or Not




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Closing Statement



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Dear viewers,

During the course of this debate, we have seen that the Illuminati – in fact – really did exist, for a very short period of time. The problem is that the Illuminati did – in fact – die but the rumor mills never stopped. Another fact is that they amplified as years went on. The rumors that is...

Interesting Examples:



Magazines in the 1970s, such as Teenset and others, suggested that the Illuminati controlled the rock music business and were responsible for masterminding all the assassinations of recent decades.




American Opinion magazine said that American Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) was the current manifestation of the one-world conspiracy.




In the Bulletin to Restore the Constitution, from Fort Collins, Colorado, we find the Illuminati made up of Fabianism, round table, communism, Bilderbergers, CFR, Rotary, Elks, Y.M.C.A., and B’nai B’rith.



As we can see, as I said previously, the Illuminati is served with all sauces. Writers from magazines to books have had a fun fest with the very idea that the Illuminati still exists. Unfortunately, there is yet to be an ounce of proof / or evidence to back it up. There are no paper trails, no historical artifacts, nothing. Whistle blowers such as Slavi or Zagami, for instance, are as serious as Jordan Maxwell...and that is sincerely not a compliment.


But the Illuminati sells...


As the examples stated above, I highly recommend reading this LINK as it mentions where 25 of those rumors come from. I will also mention that it is emphasized that none of them are true.

As a reply to my esteemed opponent’s second post, I find it interesting that Meyer moved his entire family in 1785...since that’s the very year that the Illuminati movement (yes, movement as it’s all that there ever was) was decimated. The core of the problem is that the Illuminati is still perceived as a major player in conspiracy theories without even one solid fact to back it up.

A One World Order? The Illuminati...

A Terrorism attack? The Illuminati...

Bankers? The Illuminati...

The Vatican? The Illuminati...

Bush? Obama? Clintons? The Illuminati...

Bilderbergers? The Illuminati...

Madonna? Lady Gaga? The Illuminati...

Wars? The Illuminati...

Need I say more?

Actually, if you punch in “ Illuminati” in the google search, it will turn up over 46 million results...but I have yet to see a single one of those that would back any of that up with solid, concrete evidence and not just pure and simple conjecture from conspiracy theorists and writers.

This is simply an undeniable truth and the only influence they still have nowadays is that they feed interesting stories. There is nothing more to it.

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Thank You Signals, for a challenging and fun debate.


~Son.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 04:50 PM
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*** Closing Statement ***



Are the Illuminati still holding an influence nowadays?

Unfortunately our Media has a tight, tight grip on most people on this planet. This includes television, radio, sports, news, film, and music. There is no denying this influence over most people, maybe excluding a small group, who claim to be "awake" (some actually on this site
) , and can see right through their agendas. But again, the vast majority of people on Earth are blind followers of controlled Media....

Controlled by who? You guessed it. It's so obvious. So many movies, albums, books, sports events (recent Olympics anyone?), concerts, all share one common goal - programming.

Check this out -



This is a short but comprehensive list of media figures involved in spreading their agenda -
Jay Z, Chris Brown (ever seen his Illuminati tattoo on his back?), Britney Spears, Kanye West, Rhianna, Madonna, Nicki Minaj, Dr. Dre, David Bowie, Beyonce, Lil Wayne, Lady Gaga, Katy Perry, the late Michael Jackson, the late Tupac Shakur, the late Whitney Houston, Paris Hilton, Jim Carrey, Marilyn Manson, Pink, Celine Dion, Fergie, Common, Miley Cyrus, Halley Berry, Ted Turner, Ethan Hawke, Ciara, Jude Law, Shai Labeouf....and the list could go on, and on.

Of course, all of the above listed celebrities are "alleged" Illuminati members. But I am a firm believer in the saying Actions Speak Louder Than Words, and it is up to YOU, the reader to do the research. Watch their films, listen to their music...it's so obvious.

Do some of these celebrities realize they are pawns of the Illuminati? Maybe not, but their agenda is still blindly pushed and their damage has been done.

I leave you with a couple of powerful images-

Since the World Series is in full swing......Baseball anyone?



Katy Perry screenshot from her recent full-length film Part Of Me, (she influences millions of young girls BTW) -



I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this debate against a worthy and knowledgeable adversary, SonoftheSon, and thank you, ATS for having this Debate Forum.

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posted on Oct, 31 2012 @ 03:42 AM
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Congratulations to the Fighters to having made this the most flagged debate of the new debate Forum thus far. This debate was highly entertaining to read.

Judgments are in. Thanks to the judges for taking the time.





Both opponents opened the debate strong, and started with solid positions. There is a certain finesse to be displayed within a debate, which SonoftheSun excelled with, but not to be outdone by Signals brief yet concise opening.

Round 1, Tie.

Within the next series of exchanges, Son continued solidifying his position with a nicely laid out presentation, while Signals faltered a bit by providing historical records which wandered a bit from the topic of the discussion.

With Son sticking to the topic, and Signals failing to link his position back to the present with a solid tenable connection.....

Round 2, SonoftheSun.

The debate closes down with Son linking the popularity of the Illuminati to the media, and supplying a motive for the continued belief in "them". His position remains consistent, as he rhetorically ties nearly every conspiracy back to the Illuminati, which is logistically impossible unless they truly do govern the whole world.
Signals finishes with tying Hollywood to the Illuminati, but inadvertently reinforces his opponent's position of the media, and profit, and could have presented a bit more information for the relationship between baseball and the Illuminati. Overall, Signals would have benefited by lengthening his posts closer to the allowed character limit, and by using that space to expound upon his position a bit more. The brevity of Signals posts did not favor his presentation in the least.

Round 3, and the debate, SonoftheSun.









While Signals provided a variety of information to insinuate that the Illuminati holds influence in today's world, SonoftheSun excellently argues that there is no evidence to support such a theory.

SonoftheSun also points out that many people associated with Illuminati theories are nothing more than TPTB folded into the theory itself, yet doesn't prove the existence of the Illuminati itself.

Signal's attempt to incorporate symbology into the argument was also met with articulate rebuttal by SonoftheSun.

Good debate by both, but I give it to SonoftheSun.





The winner of this Debate is SonoftheSun





 
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