The wages of sin is death. What sins do animals do?

Originally posted by drevill
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Ha ha wow.

Hiding something are we?

You show a complete lack of understanding of the Christian faith but choose to attack it on that erroneous premise.

As you mention Gods plan it is one of salvation. He created the angels with evident free will. He created man and personally feel that he was not given free will. Please read on and I'll tell you why.

Yes the fall in Eden was engineered as was everything else. Christ his son was God in the flesh so no child sacrifice.

So why this whole man thing??? Well Angels have free will and God wants them to love him freely. The plan with man will show his righteousness in dealing with Lucifer and the rebelling angels. Once this is complete those that be live in Christ will be as the angels with free will and live in love with others without sin as Lucifer will not be around to tempt.

So man was and is and will be, first and foremost, a judgement tool against the fallen angels.

Some people will not like the fact that man was not the priority here.
Regards

edit on 6-10-2012 by drevill because: addition and typo

Satan was given dominion over man with the power to deceive us all and you see us as God's tool against our master somehow. Foolish at best that notion.

You indicate that God has a need for love and man as his tool.

Omni-max God has no needs. An all-powerful entity needs no helpers.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

----------------------------

Theistic evolution.
www.youtube.com.../c/6F8036F680C1DBEB

Tell us what happened to A & E the first time they used the free will you say they had and did their will and not God's will.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


you haven't discerned the difference between want and need my friend.
I said that I believe that we do not have free will.

I've explained the reason for the creation of man. Eve was made he way show was because God knew Satan would tempt her. For that reason Adam and Eve were the bait in a trap that is being played out. During judgement
His free will angels and the then free will humans/angels will see his just ways and righteousness in dealing with Satan.

Its easy for a So called gnostic to say the comments that you do. To believe that Christ did not die and therefore you don't have to look at sin you need to genuinely repent from. You can replace Gnosis with occult as the inference is the same.

Evil is not human, mistakes are human, evil comes from demonic spirits enticing and possessing.

Satan, your master, also pulled the wool over the eyes of eve and told her what knowledge would give her a life as a god.

Therefore you do not believe in the true living God but one that holds no hope of a fulfilment of promise. Enlightening yourself and climbing the cognitive spiritual divine ladder is impossible. Who around us has acheived it? Or are they in another universe of light?

The arrogance of elite is a light that blinds to the truth and leads to destruction.

Regards

You do not like Gnostic or occult yet you chase after Satan and demons.

We have no common ground. You are here to teach when you should be learning.
Perhaps you are controlled by the demons you believe in. Oh well.

I thought you were responding because of your free will but you say you have none so there is not much point in my discusing anything with a demon controlled man.

Regards
DL

reply to post by eleven44

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by FissionSurplus

 

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
The concept of "sin" means that the entity who is sinning is one who understands what sin is.

Just as Adam and Eve knew nothing until they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and suddenly became aware that they were nekkid as jaybirds, it can safely be assumed that animals are in that state of ignorant bliss.

So what if you don't believe in morality and think it is all made up? Obviously you are ignorant of sin so you should get a free pass, right?

Are atheists excused since they are "ignorant" of sin?

There is a big difference between ignorance and arrogance.

How can one be arrogant for sin if they don't even believe it exists? Ignorance would be the best word if you are doing something and don't even realize it.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by eleven44

 

Originally posted by eleven44

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by FissionSurplus

 

Originally posted by FissionSurplus
The concept of "sin" means that the entity who is sinning is one who understands what sin is.

Just as Adam and Eve knew nothing until they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, and suddenly became aware that they were nekkid as jaybirds, it can safely be assumed that animals are in that state of ignorant bliss.

So what if you don't believe in morality and think it is all made up? Obviously you are ignorant of sin so you should get a free pass, right?

Are atheists excused since they are "ignorant" of sin?

There is a big difference between ignorance and arrogance.

How can one be arrogant for sin if they don't even believe it exists? Ignorance would be the best word if you are doing something and don't even realize it.

That would be Christians praying at nothing, right?
I would use the word delusional but I am French and will bow to you knowledge of the English language mon ami

Regards
DL

I don't think the "wages of sin is death" is referring to the death of the physical body of either humans or animals. Here's why,

The bible tells us all are appointed once to die, then the judgment. This one-time physical death is the same for all physical life. Ec 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

This tells us that humans physically die once, just like animals (Incidentally that clears up that the bible does not support reincarnation.)

"then the judgment" - the corrupt and unrepentent evil are destroyed (spiritual death) or
the saved will receive eternal life.

so I am thinking the "death" referred to in "the wages of sin is death" is referring to the final spiritual death that will occur to some humans at the time of judgment, occurring after the resurrections. The bible does not discuss any judgment, eternal life/death in fire options for animals, so we can assume the judgment may not apply to animals. Because we are not told, animals being free of sin may be exempt from judgment, or their physical death is truly a final death. A difference is hinted at but posed as a question in Ecclesiastes 3:21 (New International Version) 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

The bible deals with the purpose and destiny of man, and gives little insight into animals and their destiny.

Originally posted by Greatest I am
The wages of sin is death. What sins do animals do?

The wages of sin is death. What sins do animals do?

Strange to think that all living organisms can sin. Everything from amoebas to my cats are sinners as they all die.

Can animals sin and if not, why do they die?

If animals cannot sin, then did God sin by using genocide on them in Noah’s day?




Regards
DL

edit on 4-10-2012 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)

Guess I'll bite. It's like this. Animals don't have souls. When the die they're gone for good. Therefore they can't sin. Because they're almost like a biological android. They're like a robot. When the robot is turned off. it's gone. No sin can follow them into the judgement of the afterlife to to condemn them to hell. And they have no savior, no set of instructions as a way to be saved, as they don't need to be. Which shows there's no sin there to even to need forgiving..

Also as if there's no real free will there. They have a very suffistocated set of AI but it's still a form of AI from what I can tell. Which is very interesting, as it's so well designed AI that the animal is able to show emotions, formulate thoughts to some degree, have a family, reproduce, etc etc.

They were put on earth as a source of companionship, beauity and food for humans.

Animals misbehave at times. So a dog bites someone. it's nervous, scared, trying to protect, overly aggressive in nature, etc etc. It's acting out. It's misbehaving, because it harbors emotional hurts from the past. Or something causes them to overreact. But they're not sinning. Because again they take nothing with them after they die. They're no soul there.

They die because they are biological.

Even if they could sin on Noahs day doesn't matter what God does, he's God, he can do whatever he wants as he makes the rules of the game. Fortunately he's a just God and gives us a clearly defined set of rules in the bible.

So snooky isn't in hell or heaven. She's gone. She's been turned off basically.

Originally posted by TZela
I don't think the "wages of sin is death" is referring to the death of the physical body of either humans or animals. Here's why,

The bible tells us all are appointed once to die, then the judgment. This one-time physical death is the same for all physical life. Ec 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

This tells us that humans physically die once, just like animals (Incidentally that clears up that the bible does not support reincarnation.)

"then the judgment" - the corrupt and unrepentent evil are destroyed (spiritual death) or
the saved will receive eternal life.

so I am thinking the "death" referred to in "the wages of sin is death" is referring to the final spiritual death that will occur to some humans at the time of judgment, occurring after the resurrections. The bible does not discuss any judgment, eternal life/death in fire options for animals, so we can assume the judgment may not apply to animals. Because we are not told, animals being free of sin may be exempt from judgment, or their physical death is truly a final death. A difference is hinted at but posed as a question in Ecclesiastes 3:21 (New International Version) 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

The bible deals with the purpose and destiny of man, and gives little insight into animals and their destiny.

I do not agree.

God paid direct attention to the snake in Eden, even calling it the wisest creature.
If they were of no importance then why did he destroy most of them in Noah's days instead of doing the moral thing of protecting them?

Fun perhaps.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by r2d246

Originally posted by Greatest I am
The wages of sin is death. What sins do animals do?

The wages of sin is death. What sins do animals do?

Strange to think that all living organisms can sin. Everything from amoebas to my cats are sinners as they all die.

Can animals sin and if not, why do they die?

If animals cannot sin, then did God sin by using genocide on them in Noah’s day?




Regards
DL

edit on 4-10-2012 by Greatest I am because: (no reason given)

Guess I'll bite. It's like this. Animals don't have souls. When the die they're gone for good. Therefore they can't sin. Because they're almost like a biological android. They're like a robot. When the robot is turned off. it's gone. No sin can follow them into the judgement of the afterlife to to condemn them to hell. And they have no savior, no set of instructions as a way to be saved, as they don't need to be. Which shows there's no sin there to even to need forgiving..

Also as if there's no real free will there. They have a very suffistocated set of AI but it's still a form of AI from what I can tell. Which is very interesting, as it's so well designed AI that the animal is able to show emotions, formulate thoughts to some degree, have a family, reproduce, etc etc.

They were put on earth as a source of companionship, beauity and food for humans.

Animals misbehave at times. So a dog bites someone. it's nervous, scared, trying to protect, overly aggressive in nature, etc etc. It's acting out. It's misbehaving, because it harbors emotional hurts from the past. Or something causes them to overreact. But they're not sinning. Because again they take nothing with them after they die. They're no soul there.

They die because they are biological.

Even if they could sin on Noahs day doesn't matter what God does, he's God, he can do whatever he wants as he makes the rules of the game. Fortunately he's a just God and gives us a clearly defined set of rules in the bible.

So snooky isn't in hell or heaven. She's gone. She's been turned off basically.

edit on 12-10-2012 by r2d246 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-10-2012 by r2d246 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-10-2012 by r2d246 because: (no reason given)

So all the animals God killed did something against the programming that God put in them. Rather incompetent of God. Why not just reprogram?
Why kill?

His rules are in the bible eh?

Quote the rule on stem cell research and use and the rule of man creating chimeras please.

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


I didn't say they were of no importance. I said the bible gives little insight as to their destiny after death, and the remainder of my post was about why I didn't think the scripture "the wages of sin is death" was referring to the death of the physical body of either animals or man. If you read my entire reply you will notice that I said that animals could be exempt from judgment OR their physical death may be finality. Because the OP is discussing a bible scripture my reply was discussing the question from my perspective of the biblical standpoint.

And to address the question of God allowing animals to die in the flood.

When someone accuses God of being immoral for allowing death to occur they seem to believe that this physical life is all there is, God is not in control, God has no plan and cannot take care of the souls He created. In other words the people who accuse God of being immoral usually don't believe there is a God.

In my study of the bible I find a clear message that the temporary, physical life is much less important in the big scheme of things than we place on it. The bible tells us for man that the day of his death is better than the day of his birth! When things happen and a child dies, natural disasters happen, or the bible tells us God allowed people or animals to die without intervening it may be part of a bigger plan, not evidence of immorality.

The bible doesn't specifcally address the destiny of the individual souls of animals. They may or may not be on the same path as humans but they are important to God. Isaiah 11:6-9 depicts the future blessings of nature when peace on earth is achieved: “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid, and the calf and the young lion … and the lion shall eatstraw like the ox. … They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord”.

"When someone accuses God of being immoral for allowing death to occur they seem to believe that this physical life is all there is,"

And you do not seem to know either except for faith which is basically the belief in nothing.
This is shown by tour uses of may this and may that.

And for that, you are willing to swallow that killing children and babies is a moral thing to do.

Keep believing that. Satan will great you after death.

Regards
DL