US Hypocrisy.

reply to post by jerico65


My bad. I meant to say thousands. Not sure why I said millions. Thanks.

Originally posted by wujotvowujotvowujotvo
Bradley Manning - the US Military violated its own UCMJ laws and court martial procedures.

The Collateral Murder video showed that the US can and happily do break Geneva Convention by loopholes.

Really? What GC article was broken? Have you actually taken the time to read the AAR on that incident?

my//bad

Originally posted by Bugger
Please do the rest of the world a favor and PISS OFF!

Until there's another disaster. Then you're whining like little girls with skinned knees.

"Send us fooooodddd!!! Send us money!! Send your hospital ships! Send your airlifters filled with tents, medical aid, doctors, more food, more water!!!!"

Originally posted by Sinny
Ahh, in that case I suppose the severity of the bomb rests on your own morals and ethics.

It certainly goes against mine, maybe not your tho, aye marine?

Armchair generals are a dime a dozen.
I've provided corroborative links and information. Others have just provided opinion, rhetoric and innuendo.

Meh.

reply to post by eriktheawful


You bet. Here you go. Here are a few of the hundreds (thousands?) of scholarly articles written in academic journals. Note: Unless you are a university student you may want to access them from a public library to avoid the (modest) charges that normally accompany "civilian" usage. Most of the scholarly journals pay the bills to keep the servers up and running by charging the general public anywhere from$1-$10 per article download....but most municipal libraries will have these accessible for free.

Rufus E. Miles Jr. "Hiroshima: The Strange Myth of Half a Million American Lives Saved." International Security 10.2 (1985): 121-140. Project MUSE. Web. 28 Sep. 2012. .

Kagan, Donald. "Why America dropped the bomb." Commentary Sept. 1995: 17. Literary Reference Center. Web. 28 Sept. 2012.

BERNSTEIN, B. J. (1995), Understanding the Atomic Bomb and the Japanese Surrender: Missed Opportunities, Little-Known Near Disasters, and Modern Memory. Diplomatic History, 19: 227–273. doi: 10.1111/j.1467-7709.1995.tb00657.x

Libby, Justin H.. "The search for a negotiated peace: Japanese diplomats attempt to surrender Japan prior to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki." World Affairs. World Affairs Institute. 1993. HighBeam Research. 28 Sep. 2012 .

Operation Super Sunrise? Japanese-United States Peace Feelers in Switzerland, 1945
Author(s): Gerhard Krebs
Source: The Journal of Military History, Vol. 69, No. 4 (Oct., 2005), pp. 1081-1120
Published by: Society for Military History

If you want a couple of handy-dandy links that you can go to right this instant I'll include a few of them below...including a page on the CIA's own website which contains the text of the memo's that Japanese started sending the United States, Britain, Russia, and even the Vatican (to act as mediators if necessary) for inquiry regarding terms of surrender. Although, for whatever reason the paper in the Journal of Military History is accessible to public for no charge, thus I will include that link below as well.

CIA Link: www.cia.gov...

Journal of Military History Link #1: www.jstor.org...

Journal of Military History Link #2: www.upa.pdx.edu...

...and here is a link to an academic journal for atomic scientists which discusses the same issues, Note: Atomic scientists are not professional historians...but if ANYBODY would have a vested interest in refuting these sorts of claims it would be THESE GUYS...yet they still largely agree with the historians.

Atomic Scientists Link: hillyardhistory.net...


Also note...the REASON much of this is NOW considered historical fact is due largely to the fact that the lion's share of documents concerning the Japanese surrender didn't START becoming declassified until the mid '80's and continued a slow, trickling process of release for about the next 10 years or so. Historians were largely basing their assessment of the necessity of dropping nukes based upon what the government verbally told them.

Of course...as with anything...it is still possible to find a small minority of historians who disagree. The most notable is James Maddox whose book "The Greatest Hoax In American History: Japan's Alleged Willingness to Surrender During the Final Months of World War II" takes an opposing viewpoint. In essence, he argues that Japan's repeated pleas for negotiating surrender "don't count" because they were derived off of the Japanese words "kosan" and "kofuku" which are better translated as "ceasing resistance" or "ceasing hostile action" instead of "unconditional surrender"...never mind the salient and material fact that there is no word in the Japanese language which provides perfect synonym for "unconditional surrender". Thus...Maddox concludes that it was OK to kill 250,000 innocent civilians due to this minor linguistic discrepancy...whilst simultaneously ignoring the fact that we found the words "kosan" and "kofuku" to be perfectly adequate AFTER we nuked Japan.

However...I would assert that the vast, VAST, majority of historians would be willing to testify in a court of law that Maddox is stretching the bounds of proper historical analysis and conclusions in an attempt to justify his own predisposed bias in the matter. After all...we can't hardly expect Eskimos to have a native word for "cactus"..despite the fact that they HAVE encountered various prickly plants (such as pine needles) before...right?

I'll leave you to decide for yourself...but I for one stand with the majority of historians who have concluded that Maddox is a kook.

reply to post by milominderbinder


I see many opinions dated decades after the fact.

Also from your own CIA link

MONTINI: Would it not be possible for the Japanese Government to offer terms that would be closer to those of the Anglo-Americans so that the Holy See could begin mediation on more concrete bases?

KANAYAMA: We will communicate your request to our government at once, together with an account of this conference. Meanwhile, it would be useful if the Holy See would begin mediation attempts.

ROSSIGNANI: Very well. This evening I will present Mr. Kanayama's memorandum and the minutes of this conference to His Holiness.

US Terms were "Unconditional surrender"

Also, they were worried their Emperor would be jailed or killed.
Neither happened.

I think people give assange too much credit either pro or against. He has not released anything earth shattering in terms of above top secret material in alternative science, alternative religion, alternative anything. Just confidential or secret stuff that embarrases people and/or puts their life at risk!

People like alex jones, david icke, bob lazar, john lear have released much more important stuff. And the usa is not the root of all evil. The rabbit hole goes extremely deep: washington is the military-industrial capital of the world, rome is the capital of pseudo-christianity, london is the capital of financial tyranny and jeursalem is the capital of sacrifice.

Luciferianism is the root of all evil. Can't expect julian assange to offer anything other than controlled opposition. Whatever though!

reply to post by jerico65


It was Broken when the black van, unconnected with insurgents with children inside was tied to the previous men killed by the Apache shooters.

This effectively transformed protected medical assistance into part of an enemy force.

One of the soldiers who rescued the children from the black van testified that it amounts to Geneva Convention violation.

Although he did not cite the section, he said it broke down to the linking to the previous people killed.

This effectively transformed protected medical assistance into part of an enemy force.

He further backed his analysis up by saying that the Apache soldiers screaming for permission to engage while describing the black van's colour as being NOT BLACK was indicative of murderous intent by the Apache operators.

This is all in the Al Jazeera doc

Permission to Engage
Victims' families and an ex-US soldier unpick the Wikileaks film that showed US forces killing Iraqi civilians in 2007.
Witness Last Modified: 24 Aug 2012 17:38
www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2012/08/2012823616123717.html

The families of the victims and a disillusioned former US soldier who was serving in Iraq around that time unpick the footage in forensic detail and relate their accounts of what happened.

And about the atomic bombings.

OK, little or no research is done about it on ATS. It's just waaayyy too easy to say, "The US was evil! They killed innocent Japanese civilians that were just begging to surrender! And just because the IJA conducted the "Rape of Nanking" was no reason to nuke their cities!"

Whatever.

The Japanese were engaged in the Second Sino-Japanese War (This pretty much folded into WW2). The Japanese in reality were in one scrape after another with China since about 1933 or so. The Rape of Nanking was in 1937.

The Japanese were striving for the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. This wasn't some sort of "Asian countries against the West" coalition. This was the Japanese wanting to be the head cheese in the Pacific and everyone else was going to be their slaves. "Asia for the Asiatics!" was there battle cry and they set about "liberating" Western colonies. Of course, after they were "liberated", a puppet Japanese government was in place to run the show.

The West stopped selling Japan iron ore, steel, oil, etc. The Japanese had the choice of either giving up the colonies they had invaded (fat chance!) or going to war. They started planning for war with the West in April/May 1941.

So, after the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, the butchering of civilians in the PI, the treatment of Allied POWs, etc, etc, etc, don't you think that emotions might be a bit "high"?

The Japanese civilians were riding high, enjoying the fruits of victories of their armies. Until things went sideways and they were on the losing side.

I guess to sum it all up: The Japanese took on the world and committed one atrocity after another. They deserved to get the nuclear mushroom stamp on their foreheads.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Garbage, huh?

See my post here www.abovetopsecret.com...

...then download and read the plethora of scholarly papers written by professional historians and atomic scientists who all correctly note that Japan had been trying desperately to surrender to Allied forces for 7 months PRIOR to us dropping the bomb.

...and if that's not good enough for you...maybe you will believe the CIA's own website which has the ACTUAL TEXT of the memo's from Japan to the US, Britain, Russia, and the Vatican expressing a desire to surrender starting on JANUARY 17TH, 1945.

Link: www.cia.gov...

Wait...let me guess...your'e going to say the "hippies" over at the CIA are part of the "liberal media" and they have a vested interest in making the US seem like a bunch of unreasonable a^^holes...right?

The CIA might be a lot of things...but peaceniks isn't one of them.

Originally posted by wujotvowujotvowujotvo
It was Broken when the black van, unconnected with insurgents with children inside was tied to the previous men killed by the Apache shooters.

This effectively transformed protected medical assistance into part of an enemy force.

Unmarked van. These are not protected by the GC. It has to have the Red Cross, Cresent, Lion, or Star of David.

Sorry, the dude driving the van probably shouldn't have thought it was, "Take your kids to war day". What was he thinking, bringing kids into the beaten zone?

And just how were the gunship pilots to know that there were kids in the van? Buy those "X-Ray vision specs" from the comics.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Read the FULL POST at www.abovetopsecret.com...

I've already discussed the linguistic difference of the words "kosan" and "kofuku"...there is a reason why there are only a couple of quacks in the entire world of historical scholars who try to use this argument.

reply to post by SLAYER69


You still haven't addressed my query in the post previous to this one. Which is fine I guess, it would be rather personal disclosure.

My point however, is I'm not concerned about the history or the facts (which seem blurred at best) surrounding the bomb, just whether *anything* warrants that force being used in any situation.

The end will justify the means?

Its not like it was "Mr. President, if we don't Nuke Japan immediately they'll be 4 million of their forces invading the USA!"

The people of US were under no threat at all.

reply to post by Sinny


Right....


Like you addressed and admitted that Japan was responsible for their own actions [Whether provoked or not] years before which started the whole thing.


PEACE

reply to post by SLAYER69


I just amended my above post.

Originally posted by MarioOnTheFly
your two governments (British and US) are one and the same. I'm just not sure yet, which is the dog and which is the master. They are both controlled by the same money men.


edit:

btw. nice thread. I agree with what you stated...just don't be fooled that the Brits had nothing to do with it.

edit on 27-9-2012 by MarioOnTheFly because: (no reason given)

I totally agree with you but I think the US have the upper hand.

Originally posted by Sinny
My point however, is I'm not concerned about the history or the facts

Yes, this whole thread proves that.

Good day.

reply to post by SLAYER69


And your posts through out this thread also prove my point,

Good day, Cold Blooded Marine,

Signed, Sealed, Stamped, Sinny.

Originally posted by Sinny
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

And your posts through out this thread also prove my point,

Good day, Cold Blooded Marine,

Signed, Sealed, Stamped, Sinny.

Yeah, those Marines are just a bunch of baby killers and eat infants for breakfast.



You really do not have any real frame of reference...no real life experience...no actual knowlege of the subject do you?