Cheyenne cop to combat vet: "I'll release you if you let my buddy point his gun at you" and other

This is why cops get shot.... They pick on blacks and eventually they have had enough.

These cops pick on normal people law abiding citizens like this man. They rough up teens and young people
and sorry but the bad cops.put a blight on all of them. Stop sticking up for these human rights abuses get rid of bad officers less will be killed. They keep roughing people up like this guy and others being heavy handed the more cops will be killed it is the.officers choice.

Cut it out

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I'm sure we can all agree that the only viable alternative to a citizen police force is mob rule.

check that.

Why did he not say when asked that he was openly carrying a firearm? That is the problem. The officer could not see it when the guy was on the bike. Too many cops are shot and killed on those desolate roadways. Just because the guy is a veteran? Somehow he does not have to be compliant to an police officer's instructions? Is that officer not allowed to ensure their personal safety? If I were the officer, I would have responded the same way. Precisely! File a complaint!

Forgive me, but what is the big deal? This man was released without charge, and was permitted to go on his way. This is just another mountain made from a mole hill. I think the officer made a textbook traffic stop, and the veteran was treated with the utmost respect. It is very easy for that guy to dimount his bike, and pull that gun from his holster to let off some rounds. Safety first! That is not an unreasonable request. What does it hurt to follow instructions, and comply? Nothing! Now that last bit of narration about when his partner arrived is something I can not comment on, because it was not recorded. It may have happened or may not have? That happened to be the words of the Youtube poster. I am not seeing a problem here.

Originally posted by CombatBoots
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

I'm sure we can all agree that the only viable alternative to a citizen police force is mob rule.

check that.

Hmmmm......

One or the other? Really?

That tells me you either lack the capacity to contemplate alternatives or you are simply defending the institution of law enforcement as a matter of principle.

First lets look at through your eyes, one or the other.

Mob rule cons are? No or a severely biased trial? Punishment dished out in the heat of action? Unfair targeting of a certain class of people?

These things dont exist under the current system of law enforcement? Opinions and laws arent a product of a petty and dynamic public opinion filtered through a corrupt and petty legislature? Certain classes of people arent subjected to unequal sentencing and treatment? A system of "good 'ol boys" doesnt play favorites?

Now lets postulate for a moment that in this universe of infinite possibilities perhaps something exists beyond one or the other. An alternative to a simple this or that.

Could reform be an option? How about a simple code of conduct that states where there is no harm there is no crime? Maybe using law enforcement as a service on demand rather than a constantly running entity always looking to justify it's own existence?

A position of "this or that" is absurdly simplistic. Believing that even in a "this or that" world that mob rule differs significantly in any positive or negative way from the current structure of law enforcement shows me you havent been paying attention to the world around you.

reply to post by whisperindave


You're right Dave, people should stop being "lunkheads" and exercising a Constitutional right because it's not fair to the police. Perhaps next people shouldn't even have to consent to searches or be read their rights during an arrest. Why not just throw all of our rights at the feet of law enforcement to help them feel better about their position.

Hell why not just crawl out of your vehicle the next time you get pulled over and lay belly up in front of the officer while begging for forgiveness. It would make his life so much easier.

reply to post by thisguyrighthere


I really do not understand why cops get their panties in a knot when someone has a gun. A cop can kill a person and they can get away with it even with damming evidence. A person kills a cop and there is a world wide man hunt that will track the perp down like an animal. Cops need to relax.

Originally posted by Jakes51
Why did he not say when asked that he was openly carrying a firearm? That is the problem. The officer could not see it when the guy was on the bike. Too many cops are shot and killed on those desolate roadways. Just because the guy is a veteran? Somehow he does not have to be compliant to an police officer's instructions? Is that officer not allowed to ensure their personal safety?

IMHO this vet was more of an American than 99% of the sheep out there. If you have rights outlined by the state and national framework, and the police are the ones trying to coerce those rights away, who will protect your rights? Who will say "Whoa, wait, I don't consent, or "I'm sorry officer, I don't have to agree to answer all your questions?" Here's a hint, it's got two thumbs and his name is "Me" (By me I mean yourself, but that didn't sound as witty.)
The vet was calm and controlled throughout the stop. The problem really lies with the police, who have been trained not to listen to anything...trained that every interaction will become a felony at any moment. It's like TSA...there's no thought process, no lines of communication. If I were the cop, I would ask with a please that the citizen set he gun on the bike seat and stand near the cruiser during the interaction. Because if open carry is legal, an officer has NO AUTHORITY to cuff (detain) a citizen. Of course I understand his right to carry, and wouldn't have the audacity to believe, let alone admit, I put my interests above the law.

Safety first! That is not an unreasonable request. What does it hurt to follow instructions, and comply? Nothing!

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

-Benjamin Franklin

reply to post by popcornmafia
I do not advocate the killing of abusive cops or abusive authoritarians. I think we should show respect to considerate and law abiding police. I'm just waiting until it becomes a fad.

reply to post by blamethegreys


Had he been compliant when asked that simple question about being armed? The officer could have planned accordingly. For me, I would not want to be the dead man laying in the gully with one in the noodle as result of going about a traffic stop with linen gloves. That is just me though. Given the situation, I thought the officer handled it well. That is just my opinion.

He took contol of the situation, and that is what they are trained to do. He not only ensured his safety, but also the safety of the man that was stopped. All it takes is a minor miscommunication or a suspicious gesture, and rounds could have been exchanged. I wish we lived in a perfect world, and everyone conducted themselves with honor, dignity, and mutual respect. However, we do not, and many officers have died on those desolate roadways after a rountine traffic stop. It happens, and that officer is entitled to his personal safety as well as that man legally carrying his fire arm. He could have simply answered his question the first time, and would have been on his way a lot sooner without the inconvenience. I appreciate your response, and you brought up some good points. I suppose we have encountered another slippery slope?

reply to post by DestroyDestroyDestroy


Destroy, baby......are you sure you want to be known as the type of person that denies civil rights, back in the 60's they were all down to getting that strait....don't tread...thanks

Its understandable why MOST people get afraid seeing someone open carry because, they dont know that person, they dont know what they would or could do, and thats natural....most people have never been to a combat zone. So the sight of people carrying a pistol out in public could be unnerving to some folks

But Police shouldnt be ignorant of the rights and laws, as you would expect them not to be. Of all the videos I've seen such as the one posted by the OP, all of the recordings had cops who say "i dont like that you have your gun displayed" or something along those lines
Just because a cop doesnt like something, doesnt mean they can harass people, disobey laws or the constitution just because they dont like something. (but we all know Laws and Rights and the Constitution dont mean anything anymore).

Good for this guy standing up for his rights. I understand the cops concern for his safety however he over reacted and did not know the law when confronted with it. My first reaction was why didn't the guy just say yes I am armed. However if he had he would have just reinforced the cops notion that he is above the law and rights as he expressed in the exchange. Now this cop knows for certain he is not. And I am sure the training they receive reinforces the attitude that they are in charge and can do what ever they want to despite the law. His repeated forceful statement that if I ask you if you're armed you tell me shows the flawed training.

In this situation the cop is smart to remain concerned for his safety as you never know what someone might do. However the way for him to handle it was not to cuff the guy and try to brow beat him but to say ok you are correct and are not in any violation however would you please remove your weapon and set it on the seat and step over this way while we talk. If the guy refuses then say ok that is your right but I have right to be safe so for your own safety and mine please keep your hands where I can see them and do not make any sudden moves. That is all the cop can do legally within the laws of the state. The cop clearly violated his rights.

In Idaho I don't know if it still does but the law used specifically state a cop cannot ask you if you have any weapons if no crime has been committed or at traffic stop. If he sees an open carry weapon he can ask you to place it on the dash or somewhere visible for his safety.

Really the cop had no business pulling this guy over A citzen complaining of speeding is not probable cause the cops has to come out there and witness you speeding and he did not.

Peoples fears of open carry weapons are irrational media inspired paranoia. Why do they not fear cops open carrying? Cops have a higher crime rate then concealed carry permit holders per capita. And how do they know someone is not a plains cloths officer or agent? Also the states that have the most liberal gun laws or lack there of like Idaho Wyoming Vermont etc. have the lowest crimes rates.

There's a book I own by a LTC (Ret.) Dave Grossman called "On Combat". It talks mainly about PTSD amongst other things, but one thing that it does talk about, is something I want to share with you all. It's Called "On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs".

On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs

I am proud to say that I am a "Sheepdog". I do believe, however, that these police officers were sheep. Yeah, they may seem like sheepdogs to some, but, to me, they gave themselves away when they said they were cuffing him for "their safety" and not others. All the police officers had to do is ask the vet is if his firearm was loaded, and if so, to unload it, just to make clear of his intentions. They did not however, have to go through his things, and cuff him. They could have easily just had him step away from the bike to talk to the officers. This would have alleviated the fear of the vet acting aggressively towards the officers, and possibly firing upon them. It takes time to get back to the bike and get the gun out, and start firing, by that time, the officers would have had the drop on him. The officers were wrong in this situation (although, I do understand about them being concerned, because us combat vets do tend to look daunting at times. )

So, why the Sheepdog reference? Because it helps to understand whats going through a vet's mind when he's carrying. He does't want to hurt anyone, (that's actually the last thing on his mind) His first thought is the protection of others before himself.

reply to post by Jakes51


I completely see your point...we could add other factors, such as the guy probably had out of state plates, he may have looked like a perp after a few days on the road with no shower. And I agree, the cop was trying to control the situation calmly.
I just think there has to be a better way. Remember those oh-so-rare clips on youtube, where a cop knows citizens' rights, does his job while still respecting them? Those guys have figured out a way. I bet if the cop started the conversation off by recognizing the guy's rights to open carry, and asking him for both their safety to set the weapon on the bike we'd never be talking about this video (except for one of those oh-so-rare 'good cop' clips).

The thing is, as this video illustrates, one violation of your rights leads to another violation of your rights. If the cop found a roach in the wallet, the vet would've been hauled off...on an illegal search.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
In all honesty, I can understand why a cop would be on edge about a guy open carrying; yes it may be legal but it's still a gun and the cop has no idea whether you are going to turn violent or not.

Possession of a gun has no bearing on whether or not someone is going to turn violent... If that was his concern they maybe he should approach every traffic stop with gun drawn and handcuff everyone right off the bat.
Most bad guys aren't worried about following the law, their gun would be hidden, and they wouldn't tell the truth about having it in the first place...

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
For the sake of not being a douche, the motorcyclist should have informed the cop that he had a weapon, even if he is not required to, and proceeded to disarm himself.

WHAT!?!? Tell the cop he has a gun and then reach for it? That would be the stupidest thing he could do and very likely get himself shot!
For the sake of not being a douche, the cop shouldn't be bothering people who are not breaking the law...

Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by blamethegreys

 

Had he been compliant when asked that simple question about being armed? The officer could have planned accordingly. For me, I would not want to be the dead man laying in the gully with one in the noodle as result of going about a traffic stop with linen gloves. That is just me though. Given the situation, I thought the officer handled it well. That is just my opinion.

You do know that when a cop asks you a question you don't have to answer right? The whole right to remain silent thing... Now during a traffic stop if asked to produce his drivers license he is required to show this, but still doesn't have to say anything.

If the cop in this case is that worried about non-cops being in possession of a gun around him, maybe he shouldn't be working in a state where open carry (And concealed carry without a permit) is allowed.

Here's a really simple solution, if the guy wasn't breaking any law the cop should not be bothering him - problem solved... I don't know why so many think we should just comply, comply, comply, bend over and spread our cheeks for the cops. How about instead the cops just do their job.

As usual, I can see both sides of this issue.

The officer's side: a traffic stop is asked if he's carrying, and he states that he does not consent to any searches. He then stands up, and has a gun in clear view. The officer has no backup, is alone, and - perhaps unfounded - fears for his safety. Why did this individual not state that he was carrying? Even if he isn't required to, that he did not could be construed as suspicious (note that I said it could be construed as such, not that it is.)

The citizen's side: the officer is unlawfully detaining him, by his own admission, in the absence of reasonable actionable suspicion of a crime, looking through his wallet without consent, and predicating the stop on an insistence that he cede his fourth amendment rights. By insisting that he must tell him that he has a gun, he is essentially telling him that he must submit to a search. Asking a question about what's on your person and detaining you because you do not could be construed as a forcible search and seizure.

The crux of the problem seems to be that the officer does not agree or does not understand that the question itself - and the compulsion to answer - is being interpreted as an unconstitutional search of the citizen.

I agree with the citizen that the officer's safety - in the absence of probable cause or reasonable suspicion - does not trump his constitutionally protected liberties. But I also understand the officer's fears. It is an unfortunate incident, increasing in frequency. Education and communication could go a long way to diffusing such issues in my opinion. I've seen videos where cops were much more polite and knowledgeable, more able to get inside the head of the person they stopped, and much more cognizant of their rights and how they might interpret the extent of their rights. This officer, unfortunately, was not one of them, and in my view stepped over the constitutional line a few different times.

Cops are really getting out of control and Florida is becoming one of the worst police states in the country, I know because I've had many run ins with them.

In 2009 I was assaulted by two police officers on the side of my own house, I had come out to see what noise was going on and a cop had a freind of my brothers on the ground which I couldnt see because it was dark, I exclaimed what the hell is going on to which the cop responded with a flashlight and yelled for me to stay where I was which I complied with, then as the officer contiuned to fumble around and basically sit on this kid for 2-3 minutes while having a conversation with me, he all of sudden snapped and said GET DOWN! which I just kind of crouched down on the ground sitting to let him know I wasnt going anywhere, so then he tells me to come stand over near where he was with my brothers freind handcuffed, he started asking me questions about where I came from which I had told him I just came out of my house which I had already told him a few times during the exchange as he's sitting on handcuffing the freind, I was barefoot at the time so he could have clearly seen that,

So then the cop walks over gets behind me and knocks me to the ground and then gets on top of me which he was fat and I wasnt able to breathe he was almost suffocating me, and im still not even struggling other than bearly being able to get out saying what are you doing, get off me you fat f*in pig! And he was telling me stop resisitng and he was going to taze me. I wasnt even resisting I just wanted him to get off me.

He didnt tell me he was arresting me or anything he didnt even put me in hand cuffs he was so shocked I think of what he was doing he all of sudden realized and got off me and lifted me up on my feet. I was brushing myself off and just replyed you stupid mf.

So then as im sitting there basically yelling but still trying to stay calm another officer comes barreling around the corner, he must have called for backup, I just kind of sigh as I see it coming and he slides in the grass into me and knocks me on the ground which knocks the wind out of me, I get up off the ground and then just stand there as he rushes to put me in handcuffs and take me to the car,

Then the neighbor that initally called the cops a few blocks down comes and tells them I wasnt even with them, they had been ding dong ditching, I know pretty childish right, im trying to tell the other cop that which at first he acts like hes actually listening what im saying as im desperately trying to tell him what happened he went to shut the door and I blocked it with my leg cause I wasnt finished what I was saying and he opened the door and kicked me straight in my chest with his boot.

So then the fat little one comes back and gets in the car and Im saying what are you charging me with, why are you holding me here, he wouldnt reply but I was insistent and it took him awhile to figure out what he was saying and he was fumbling his words the whole time and he was like fleein and eludin, see what I didnt know was he had actually let the freind run off in handcuffs during the time when he was interrogating me before jumping on me I just hadnt noticed. So he was mad about that and me calling him a fat pig. I learned how sensitive he was about his weight cause I said it again and he offensively replied im not even fat!

So the whole time hes taking me to jail im in the back of the cop car saying every single thing that was on my mind, I was just going in, and he was getting so mad he was going 70 in a 45 mile an hour at one point, I said your speeding, to which he replied I am the law! I'll never forget that. When he finally got me to the CSA facility its all privately ran profit jails btw, he took me out the car and said I'd like to beat your ass right now, I said I bet you would you sick mf. So I get inside and the lady at the counter is reading me off all the charges which came out to like 3 charges and another that wasnt even posted yet. Fleeing and eluding, assault with violence, criminal mischeif, probably from me kicking the window in the car cause I was so mad. They said I broke it but interestingly they never actually brought it up in court or made me pay for it. I hit it only hard enough so they knew how pissed I was cause they were outside with another cop that arrived on the scene laughing.

So in the end after dealing with a public pretender, thats exactly what they are, (he said that at the end of they day he gets to go home to me) the cops can write anything they want on that police report and you'll be sitting in jail untill you can post bail or wait till your court date even if your innocent. I ended up getting 2 misdemeanor charges (resisting without violence and criminal mischeif I still dont know what thats even for) on a plea deal because the court knew it was lies. There was so much erased and crossed out crap on the police report it didnt even make sense.

Originally posted by whisperindave
Idiot didn't need to be carrying a weapon openly anyway. All these bikers love to act tough and hard. If a cop asks you "Do you have a weapon" You tell them. Otherwise you could be dead. Officers carry weapons all the time, they are "strapped" in their minds, that means ready to kill. A common citizen is not. This is not the wild west. You don't pass RVs doing a 100 miles an hour and then act like a prick to a cop! Just common sense! What is wrong with you gun carrying morons? Do you really think you are going to stop a robbery? Do you think you are combat trained and ready to be a hero with your pistol? I used to carry...All it ever did was get me in trouble. Then someone broke in my car and took the gun. Maybe they killed someone with it, or committed a robbery. But not once did having a gun do anything for me. Do yourself a favor, you openly carry, you tell the cop "I am armed." Simple. Stop trying this "Don't tread on me, I'm a libertarian, crap." All you are really doing is trying to intimidate other people. And the chances are good you will have your gun taken from you and used against you by someone MORE belligerent and MORE hostile than you are! Creeps in Arid-Zona thinks they are tough carrying guns around openly. It's always bikers. And it's always frightening for women and children. You're nothing but a bully without even one college class in Law...but you're going to make a cop sweat! Big tough guy. Do you know what those field officers go through on every damned traffic stop!? They take their lives in their hands to protect YOU. Some get really antsy after a hard day trying to explain to stupid, testosterone driven lunkheads like you, just what the f*ck YOU are doing to make their lives harder...stop carrying weapons. Stop being an officious prick.

You obviously shouldn't be a cop either bud. But you probably are judging by your ignorant text. A law enforcement officer is not keeping anyone safe making up laws for their own safety, the police are the biggest street gang in America anymore.

The cop was definitely the violent demanding one of the two armed men. Hmmm... He also states his personal safety was a trump card over state law and the constitution. Interesting ...

Originally posted by votan
reply to post by thisguyrighthere

 

I really do not understand why cops get their panties in a knot when someone has a gun.

Really?

A cop can kill a person and they can get away with it even with damming evidence. A person kills a cop and there is a world wide man hunt that will track the perp down like an animal. Cops need to relax.

edit on 28-9-2012 by votan because: (no reason given)

Oh well that always brings the dead one back to life.