Dare To Speak The Dirtiest Word

mod·er·ate   

adj., n. mod-er-it, mod-rit; v. mod-uh-reyt] Show IPA adjective, noun, verb, mod·er·at·ed, mod·er·at·ing.
adjective

1. kept or keeping within reasonable or proper limits; not extreme, excessive, or intense: a moderate price.
2. of medium quantity, extent, or amount: a moderate income.
3. mediocre or fair: moderate talent.
4. calm or mild, as of the weather.
5. of or pertaining to moderates, as in politics or religion.

noun]

6.a person who is moderate in opinion or opposed to extreme views and actions, especially in politics or religion.
7 ( usually initial capital letter ) a member of a political party advocating moderate reform.

verb (used with object)

8. to reduce the excessiveness of; make less violent, severe, intense, or rigorous: to moderate the sharpness of one's words.

9. to preside over or at (a public forum, meeting, discussion, etc.).
verb (used without object)

10. to become less violent, severe, intense, or rigorous.
11. to act as moderator; preside.

Origin:]

1350–1400; Middle English moderate (adj.), moderaten (v.) < Latin moderātus (past participle of moderārī to restrain, control), equivalent to moderā- verb stem ( see modest) + -tus past participle suffix

Source

(Authors note: This is not a thread about ATS moderators or their practices. There are already enough threads on that subject. I would suggest using the search function if you wish to find one of them, but be aware, the results are so large that they might crash your computer! )

Hello again ATS. May I ask you for a few more minutes of your time? I know... I know... I tend to ask for a lot of it lately, but please indulge me.

When I was a younger man I tended to like the animal... that is a colloqlial way of saying I liked to drink. And a very wise person reminded me of something that I was taught very early on in life... All things in moderation. I'll be honest and admit that it took me another couple of decades to heed that advice, as far as my habits at the local pub went. But I eventually did take it to heart.

Pick just about any subject, substance, issue, habit, preoccupation, hobby, interest... anything and it almost a no brainer to apply this adage to it. All things in moderation.

Spend 72 staight hours on W.O.W.? Someone is likely to advise that you practice moderation.
Eat 14 Big Macs per day? Moderation
Think every person who looks at you has an agenda? Moderation

Over and over again, the answer to a quality, healthy, functional life is, and say it with me, MODERATION

It is often a very positive word... Thank God it was only a moderate heart attack or We got lucky folks, and as far as tornadoes go, this one was very moderate...

Oddly there are two subjects ( that spring to mind ) that seem to ignore this rule... Religion and politics. Maybe that's why it's common knowledge that one shouldn't discuss either in polite company. One has to wonder though, why does a universally proven and accepted methodology suddenly become a reprehensible evil in these two areas? I mean most of us would want to SCREAM the word at the guy who eats the 14 Big Macs per day... and yet when it comes to our religions and our Politicians suddenly we want absolutists... we want people who despise the very concept of moderated behavior? Why?

My answer is short and sweet. Because religion and politics are the sweet spot... where the power is... So we can't have folks being rational and analytical about them. That might undermine the agenda of those who posses the power. In these areas they simply have to convince us that moderate is the dirtiest word in the world. They have to divide us and they know that these two subjects are the very foundation of modern society. Who cares about the rest of the structure. It's always under construction and in a state of flux... but the foundations? They're solid and they are the key to everything else.

Through religion control of the mind and of behavior is had.

Through politics ( government ) control of resources, finances, military power, and law are controlled.

These are the keystones of the entire, giant, whacky, bizarre, contradicting, diverse, global ball of wax. All of it. Sure, a few other things can bring power. Money, fame, talent... but that type of power doesn't match up to the big two. These types of power are lesser and are fickle, let them be moderate all day long... Just as long as God and Government are polarizing - the rest is just semantics. In these two specific fields, suddenly absolutes become not only the rule - but they absolutely and utterly lash out against any exception to the rule with the splitting fallacy... You're either with us or you're against us

Moderate religious leaders tend to be written off as lukewarm, secular, or even apostate.

Moderate politicians are attacked with terms such as innefectual, namby-pamby, waffling, etc.

Apparently if you want to love God, you better love him a LOT. And if you want to serve the people in Politics... Well you'd better pick a side and follow the doctrine of that side blindly. If not... Well you're not going to go very far in either field. You might garner a bit of fame or praise. But you'll never get within miles of any real power or authority. Simply practicing moderative thinking in either of these realms will get you marginalized, excommunicated, mocked, or even beheaded.

Extreme positions are not succeeded by moderate ones, but by contrary extreme positions.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour

What is a moderate interpretation of the text? Halfway between what it really means and what you'd like it to mean?
Antonin Scalia

Many people around the President have sizeable egos before entering government, some with good reason. Their new positions will do little to moderate their egos.
Donald Rumsfeld

There are many men of principle in both parties in America, but there is no party of principle.
Alexis de Tocqueville

I would like Obama to be tougher on going up against the Republicans, I don't think he should try to be so moderate.
Rose McGowan

All of us who are concerned for peace and triumph of reason and justice must be keenly aware how small an influence reason and honest good will exert upon events in the political field.
Albert Einstein

These critics organize and practice in my case a sort of obsessive personality cult which philosophers should know how to question and above all, to moderate.
Jacques Derrida

In order to become the master, the politician poses as the servant.
Charles de Gaulle

Under democracy one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule - and both commonly succeed, and are right.
H.L. Mencken

Those who are too smart to engage in politics are punished by being governed by those who are dumber.
Plato

~Continued...

I'm a moderate. I hang out in the middle. I vote against my party with some regularity and try to compromise. It doesn't appear right now that the Republican Party is welcoming moderates any more.
Claire McCaskill

Rich men's houses are seldom beautiful, rarely comfortable, and never original. It is a constant source of surprise to people of moderate means to observe how little a big fortune contributes to Beauty.
Margot Asquith

Redistricting and a broken, polarized Congress have made it tough to be a moderate in Congress.
Mike Ross

There are few things more amusing in the world of politics than watching moderate Republicans charging to the right in pursuit of greater glory.
Mario Cuomo

Every two years the American politics industry fills the airwaves with the most virulent, scurrilous, wall-to-wall character assassination of nearly every political practitioner in the country - and then declares itself puzzled that America has lost trust in its politicians.
Charles Krauthammer

And the most thought provoking quote I found...

Be moderate in everything, including moderation.
Horace Porter

Source for quotes one and two.

( I know... I know... not all of the quotes fixate upon the word "moderate"... but I tried to keep the right spirit, even where the word wasn't present. A couple? Just really good quotes that needed a home. So I adopted them. )

All this to get to a very simple question...

Why are we wired this way? Why do we so willingly allow others to program our common sense right out of us in regard to these most vital of subjects? Not only do we let them reprogram us, but we literally get so caught up in it all that we would fight, kill, and die - on principle - without even considering that the other party might just have a point?

If we are to begin creating the kind of groundswell that most of us on ATS seem to want to happen... Well we have to become aware of the spell that has been cast over us. We simply must unclench our fists, take a few very deep breaths, open our minds and accept the most difficult thing of all...

It is possible that our deeply held ideas might be wrong. Could our deeply held convictions possibly be incorrect? More to the point, are opposing viewpoints totally invalidated simply because we are prediposed towards a certain opinion? It's amazing to me that most of us can despise prejudice, but fail to understand that it is nearly synonymous with "bias". They are the same evil, just applied for different reasons.

There are countless methods of dividing us, and thus preventing us from becoming masters of our own lives. We are taught to focus upon externals and not to question our own ways of thinking. From birth, forward, we've been filled with eons of basic propaganda, passed through a sort of environmental genetics... Parents teaching as they were taught. We inherit our biases in the crib and never stop to wonder if these things are truly born of ourselves or not.

It's all truly and fiendishly clever. And effective.

There is a very common saying here... Wake up. Great advice, but I think it innacurate. If a person is on a site like ATS, then they are awake. My feeling is that the real issue is that we all need to update our internal, personal operating systems, and then get into the habit of mentally "safe booting" and searching for malware. That is how we will come to see our own internal programming glitches and errors. That is how we rid ourselves of the virus of external controls.

It doesn't matter which side of the issue one is one, if we learn to respect our opponent and to assume that his position might have merit - thus unentrenching our own slavish devotions to ideas and ideals... we might just accomplish something one day.

Divide and rule, the politician cries; unite and lead, is watchword of the wise.
Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Thanks for letting me have that bit of your time!

~Heff

That's an awful long post about one word. Although I agree, everything in moderation, apart from sex, drugs and Rock N Roll that is

howz about you moderate the length of your thread!
you could have summed it all up by saying your on the fence about most things!!!
i think moderate is an old babylonian word that means boring!
if you don't take a chance once in a while,how are you supposed to learn?
be it good or bad

Originally posted by reficul
reply to post by Sinny

 

how did i know you would respond to this thread!!!

ha ha ha !
i agree with you though!

I've no idea, I'll be keeping my eye on you! aha.

reply to post by Sinny


ha! i've been 'stalking' your postsw for a bit now! dont worry,i'm not a creep!
you seem to have an insight that is similar to my own!
keep the faith!!!

Please use the U2 message system to say hi and chat with each other. Back on topic please!

reply to post by Hefficide


Let me see your logic.

Because moderation in consumption is a "good thing", therefore "moderation" in our beliefs is a "good thing".

1 + 1 = 3. FAIL

What you are preaching is TOLERANCE. You equate tolerance with love and intolerance with hatred. Sounds good on the surface until you discover the inherent trap. The trap is this; if the "rule book" states that pedophilia is acceptable, then anyone who preaches against it is a hater, a bigot and intolerant. Therefore, based on your arguments, I'm left with no other conclusion than you would deem pedophilia as neither good nor evil. Your arguments leave no way to wiggle out of this conclusion because you yourself state that man must assume that his opponent's argument has some truth. Your arguments only benefit evil - the pedophile that lives in your world would have the right to abuse children and all those who opposed the evil of pedophilia could do or say nothing against it.

Your "rule book" is only as good as who writes it, isn't it? Your entire thread advocates that this "rule book" should be based on Crowley's philosophy of "Do What Thou Wilt", that there is no absolute right and wrong and that everything is acceptable. You sir, are lukewarm and will be spit out. Love is not tolerance and tolerance does not mean love. Likewise, hatred is not intolerance and intolerance does not mean hatred. If they are those things, one could never condemn such practices as pedophilia as an evil.

What you preach appeals to those who have no moral compass and those who see their salvation in mankind. The world is perishing, and your philosophy will only hasten it's end. You appeal to sinners who just want to keep on sinning. You cry "religion controls" yet advocate a new one - one which will declare no absolutes. If you can't see how this will eventually fulfill Christ Jesus' words that the end will be as in the days of Noah where the wickedness and violence spiralled out of control, then God help you.

reply to post by WhoKnows100


Thank you very much for providing example of what was discussed in my OP. It truly does help provide context to exactly the message I wished to convey. Star for you!

~Heff

reply to post by Hefficide

It doesn't matter which side of the issue one is one, if we learn to respect our opponent and to assume that his position might have merit - thus unentrenching our own slavish devotions to ideas and ideals... we might just accomplish something one day.

There you have it. ^^

We MUST develop the ability to have compassion and try patiently to understand one another. This can be learned from the crib (after all, preverbal babies certainly do have the ability to understand, though not yet the insight to see how interactions are affecting them)....

as a clinical therapist from the Social Work school, I worked to help people develop this capacity. Decades of study and practice and theory and experience later, I feel I am able to be open-minded toward ANYONE's point of view. Only when we really make the effort to "understand" where the other person is coming from (even if they are unaware of their own motivations and programming), we can begin to connect with them.

Heff, have you read any of Robert Wright's works?

His most recent two discuss both of the arenas: religion in The Evolution of God (excerpts and reviews contained in the link, check it out!);
and politics in Non Zero: The Logic of Humany Destiny
(excerpts and reviews on that one as well)

In the former he discusses how important it is for us to at least ATTEMPT to wrap our minds around our "opponent's" mindset and worldview....
in the latter he discusses win-win negotiations, cooperation, and reciprocal altruism.

I think you'd enjoy both very much...
as for today's world problems, yes, we MUST be able to calm down, put on our emotional armor, and LISTEN to what the other person is saying. By validating them (which is as simple as being open to LISTENING, without any guarantee or obligation to AGREE), a person feels "heard". Then, to clarify is next -- to repeat back how you understood what they said (as in: So, is this what you mean?). It goes a LONG, LONG way to peaceful coexistence when communication is opened up like that.

We will never heal the rifts between cultures and races until we are willing to HEAR OUT the other side, recognize that TO THEM those issues are important, and at least TRY to come to some sort of mutual understanding, even if agendas do not agree. Until we find the common denominator (we all need to eat, for example) and try to build from there, we will fail and stagnate as a species.

When known-hostile World Leaders such as Israel's Bibi GET UP AND WALK OUT when the opponent tries to speak, well, that is the juvenile, counterproductive disrespect that ruins so many marriages, so many brokered deals. Anyone feels angry when they have something to say and the person they want to say it to refuses to even listen. Yes, that's one strategy for dealing with hostility -- to refuse to participate. It takes two to tango. But in a situation where both parties MUST come to an agreement, it does not indicate an openness to compromise.

A battered wife is best off walking away, and no longer responding to her spouse's threats. A nation of people cannot afford to do that without serious ramifications; it's one thing to be an individual fed up with a dysfunctional relationship. It's quite another to be a nation of people who think they know everything and that everyone should agree with them.

sigh.
Thanks for the thread though. Keep fighting the good fight.
s/f

~wild

There is simply no excitement, no thrill, no victory in being moderate heff. Moderates are dull, moderates are boring, moderates are even.....dare I use another dirty phrase? "wishy washy, therefore not stable enough to be trusted"

How many times has this line been flung in the monkey poop sling-a- thon called politics? Some people don't trust moderates because they themselves hold extreme or polarized views and they want a candidate that thinks like they do, so until we can get people from being so fixated on extremes, chances are we will continue to see further extremism in politics....politicians are a reflection of us....macro/micro as above, so below....all that jazz.

Truth is a chunk of our humanity is absolutely okay with being led on a leash by a persuasive, "strong" leader....they find comfort in a big talker, a big mover and shaker up in the oval office making decisions for them it resonates with some alpha male thing that I personally have never understood.

It goes back to what I posted yesterday on another thread about the milgram test and people not wanting to take personal responsibility, those who are obedient because it is The easy thing to do.

So, until we can get the majority of people away from "might is right" and this hold over Darwinian survival of the fittest stuff, I am afraid being rational, being moderate, being understanding will continue to be dirty words, because in order to wield power over a group, you must first present your self as a leader and when people think of leaders they want dominant, strong, decisive, courageous, bold, Stand up guys who don't take any crap...can't wait until we evolve past all that, but I'm not holding my breath it will ever occur in my lifetime, or even my future descendants lives.

reply to post by WhoKnows100


Actually I wish to revisit your post and reply just one more time....

Originally posted by WhoKnows100
Let me see your logic.

Because moderation in consumption is a "good thing", therefore "moderation" in our beliefs is a "good thing".

1 + 1 = 3. FAIL

Actually what I said was that we practice moderation in almost all things other than politics and religion - and explored why this might be.

And from that you managed a reply that contained FIVE references to pedophilia. Could you please explain the correlation to me? Whether intentional or not, this is a disinformation tactic called "the Trojan horse" or "false association" tactic. What you've done is supplanted a negative into the readers mind that has no bearing upon the actual subject being discussed. This also qualifies as a straw man.

After that you followed up with a statement associating me with Alleister Crowley. The above applies to this as well, but adds the quality of total assumption, as you cannot possibly know anything about my religious views or beliefs. This is base character assassination through false association.

You close with:

Originally posted by WhoKnows100
What you preach appeals to those who have no moral compass and those who see their salvation in mankind. The world is perishing, and your philosophy will only hasten it's end. You appeal to sinners who just want to keep on sinning. You cry "religion controls" yet advocate a new one - one which will declare no absolutes. If you can't see how this will eventually fulfill Christ Jesus' words that the end will be as in the days of Noah where the wickedness and violence spiralled out of control, then God help you.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. John 8:7
Judge not, lest ye not be judged. Matthew 7:1

Ironic that you behave in a manner very contrary to Christ - and do it in his name? This speaks directly to the very heart of my OP. You have been conditioned so deeply and profoundly that you don't even see the contradictions in your own behavior. This, maybe, is why you've lashed out so strongly? You've been conditioned to destroy anything that causes you pause for thought?

~Heff

I don't know why so many people scream about the "extremists" in other countries and yet we have a country full of them.

It's not a dirty word IMHO, it's actually another word for one of the 7 Key Virtues (you know, the opposite of the 7 deadly sins).

Humility, charity, kindness/compassion, patience, chastity, TEMPERANCE, and diligence.

What's wrong with a little temperance? If more of us expressed some, we might not get on each others nerves so bad.

Being moderate is basically the national motto of Sweden..

"Lagom är bäst" is an idiomatic expression meaning:

"Everything in moderation" or "moderation is best".

en.wikipedia.org...

I am finding it interesting how people react to the word "moderate". In my eyes it means balance. A moderate response or approach is simply one that is well reasoned and considers more than a single perspective.

And yet we're trained to react to it almost like it's a dirty word. Some of us curse more than others, so thickness of skin and affinity vary.... but, still, the analogy is fairly accurate I think.

Odd that we should react so viscerally to such a reasonable word.

~Heff

You forgot a really great quote : “Moderation has been called a virtue to limit the ambition of great men, and to console undistinguished people for their want of fortune and their lack of merit.”

There's a time for moderation or temperance.. there is also a time for extremes and a complete lack of temperance. As I get older and older.. ugh.. I find it much more easy to be moderate.. therefore much more easy for my ambitions to be limited. But also much less fighting and no need to have someone with me to carry around cash for bail.

reply to post by Advantage


This is why I chose the last quote on the list quite deliberately. Many of them are there simply because I Googled quotes about moderation and found some of them slightly related, but worthwhile... but that last one - about moderating everything, including being moderate? That one I had in mind before I began writing!

It's true that there is a time for extremity. But I'd offer that one should be exceptionally moderate about giving into extremity.... thus it becomes a last resort and humanity becomes a bit more, well, human.

~Heff

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Advantage

 

This is why I chose the last quote on the list quite deliberately. Many of them are there simply because I Googled quotes about moderation and found some of them slightly related, but worthwhile... but that last one - about moderating everything, including being moderate? That one I had in mind before I began writing!

It's true that there is a time for extremity. But I'd offer that one should be exceptionally moderate about giving into extremity.... thus it becomes a last resort and humanity becomes a bit more, well, human.

~Heff

Agreed.. wholeheartedly. Unfortunately I really think that overmoderating.. well it kills your ability for extremism. Our words and their meanings and associations are so screwed up. They have attached extremism with terrorism/danger/savage and moderates with wishy washy that we have damned near lost the ability to communicate these ideas correctly.
I love this one.. and its actually true. Charles Cotton said that moderation is the inseparable companion of wisdom, but with it genius has not even a nodding acquaintance. Our thoughts can be extreme and our actions can be moderated. The pitfall is moderation or temperance in thought. WHen our passions are killed.. we are just meat bags IMO.

Erm.. did I kill the thread?!

This is a worthy topic of discussion. Geez.. post folks. You can follow this topic into why we in the US and all over the world are in the shape we are. What do we understand about true moderation and temperance. Do we truly grasp the concept or are we screwing around due to a misunderstanding of the terms... etc.