Well, the title says it all. Matthew 16:18 is generally invoked but I can't find anything anywhere in the bible that names the pope as god's representative on earth. Can someone enlighten me?

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Dosn't the COLLEGE OF CARDINALS elect the Pope

isn't the DALI LAMA also a representative

& who is the EASTERN ORTHODOX spiritual head


the Bible omits them also....

yes, the cardinals elect him, but my point is, where do they get the power? Who has actually decreed that this man is god's rep on earth? It's not in the bible, the only place I could find it was in 'the dogmatic constitution of the church'. So if this man was appointed by men, what gives him the right to claim the authority of god?

The verse you referred to does not have anything to do with Peter being the first pope and then that authority being transferred onto succesive popes.

That statement says that the church will be founded on Peter's statement(not on Peter) that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.

How do we know this, because 5 verses later Jesus has to rebuke Peter for disbelief and seeking his own way. We find Jesus calling Peter satan.

The church(believers of Jesus as their Lord and Savior) was founded on Jesus Christ and who He is and what He did for the salvation of mankind.

The office of pope is man made and not Biblical.

Power is an interesting notion. Lets take a look at this for a tic.

What makes the pope powerful???

About 1 billion followers...
He answers to no human; He answers to God alone.
The Pope, as the legitimate successor to Pope St. Peter, can not teach any error or heresy as he is infallible when speaking ex cathdra
Hundreds of years of tradition...
Involvement in politics and governments for hundreds of years...
Millions of churches all over the world...
Billions of dollars in investments and finances...

I would say, that would amount to some POWER

On the contrary, where did Christ get his power from?

A prophesied entry into the world...
The claim that he was the son of God...
He alone had the power to forgive sin...
Minimal followes during his life on earth...
The story of his death and resurrection...
He had no use for money...
He had no use for churches...
He did not get involved in politics...

His story only exists in the Bible...

Who then has the most power? You decide...

I think we're talking spiritual authority, so the pope has none that speaks the truth of god. There are to many false ideas in the catholic church. A litttle leaven(sin) leavens the whole lump.

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The Pope gets his power from the same place that the President gets his power, from that same place as the police, from the same place as your boss at work: from a society that creates institutions and allocates power to people who hold socially recognised positions in those institutions.
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Like many people who have power the pope gets it beacuse people give it to him. People who don't give the pope power aren't pope followers and therefore have little to do with it.

its his magic underwear with polkadots

Nah its from the magic power ring he got from an alien (as long as he charges it daily)

Originally posted by cimmerius
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The Pope gets his power from the same place that the President gets his power, from that same place as the police, from the same place as your boss at work: from a society that creates institutions and allocates power to people who hold socially recognised positions in those institutions.
.

Very well stated cimmerius. Unfortunately an inherent problem with this system is similar to a law of physics, that those in power tend to stay in power, which leads to many woes, i.e. corruption, repression, extremism..

Also to an eralier reply regarding the lack of power the papacy held during the middle ages, they had enormous power that superceeded nationality. It was only with the advent of the printing press and a general social interest in literacy that Catholicism began to loose its grip.

azza
its his magic underwear with polkadots

Blashpemer! Everyone knows his magic socks have polka dots. Down with the Magic Underwear heresy!

Originally posted by mwm1331
Nah its from the magic power ring he got from an alien (as long as he charges it daily)

As long as the forces of evil don't figure out that the papal power has no influence over the color yellow, everything should be alright. Maybe thats why the church has so much gold, they don't want it used against them!

twitchy
It was only with the advent of the printing press and a general social interest in literacy that Catholicism began to loose its grip.

The loss of papal temporal power probably had less to do with general public disatisfaction and more with regional warlords/kings becoming powerful enough to break away. Look at the breaking away of the english from the church. It was entirely decided upon by the king. Even the generla protestant reformation had to have the support of local dukes and princes to suceed.

Yes, Matthew 16:18+19 Jesus gave Peter the Authority over the Church.

Catholic Church Founded by Christ -
Mt 16:18; 28:19, Mark 16:15, 1 Cor 3:11, Eph 2:20, 1 Pet 2:4-6

Primacy of Peter
Mat 16:1, Luke 22:31-32, John 1:42; 21:15-17

Christ is the head of the Church
Eph 1:22; 5:23, Col 1:18

Is Everlasting Mat 16:18, 28:20

Is Infallible
Mt 16:18; 28:20, Mark 16:16, Luke 10:16, 1 tim 3:15

Authority of the Church
Matthew 16:19; 18:18, John 20:23

Growth of the Church
Acts 2:41;2:47; 5:14; 6:7; 11:24

Built on the Apostles 1 Cor 3:10
Eph 2:20, Rev 21:14

Degrees of authority
1 Cor 12:28, Eph 4:11, 1 Thess 5:12, Jas 3:1

Functions of Priests
Mal 1:11, Mat 28:19, John 20:23, 1 Cor 11:24, Jas 5:14

Church built on Apostles
Mat 16:18, Eph 2:20 Rev 21:14

There are more, but that should get ya' started.

Originally posted by dbrandt
That statement says that the church will be founded on Peter's statement(not on Peter) that Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.

How do we know this, because 5 verses later Jesus has to rebuke Peter for disbelief and seeking his own way. We find Jesus calling Peter satan.

Jesus said to Peter YOU are the Rock and upon YOU I shall build
My Church. He didn't say ... upon what you said I'll build My Church.
He definately said it would be upon Peter the Rock.

Ref Jesus saying - Matthew 16: 23 ' But he turned and said to Peter,
"get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not
on the side of God, but of men." Peter had just suggested that
Jesus save His life. Jesus rebuked him for saying this but in no way
did he say 'ooops, I've changed my mind, I won't build My church on
you'. No. What Jesus does say is this -

Luke22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strenghten your brethren".

The temptation of Peter is common, but the prayer was offered for Peter alone. Jesus was strengthening the head of His Church.

Later St. Paul rebukes Peter - Gal 2:9, 11-14. He did this as a fraternal
correction (Matt 18:15). Many popes have been fraternally corrected
through the ages while still maintaining the supreme authority given
them by Christ.

Peter was definately the head of the Church -
Info from 'A Biblical Defense of Catholicism' by Dave Armstrong


1 - Peter alone is the Rock upon which Jesus builds His church
Matthew 16:18
2. - Peter alone is given the keys of the kingdom. Matthew 16:19
3 - Peter is individually given the power to bind and loose. Mat 16:19
4. - Peter's name occurs first in all lists of Apostles (Matt 10:2, Mark 3:16, Luke 6:14, Acts 1:13) Matthew even calls him the 'First' (10:2).
5. - Peter is almost always named first whenever he appears with anyone else.
6. - Peter alone among the Apostles receives a new name, Rock, solemnly conferred (John 1:42; Matt 16:18)
7. - Peter is regarded by Jesus as the Chief Shepherd afte rHimself (John 21:15-17) (Acts 20:28, 1 Pet 5:2)
8. - Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to 'Strengthen your brethren" (luke 22:32).
10.- Peter is first to confess Christ's Messiahship and divinity (Matt 16:16).
11. - Peter alone is told that he has reveived divine knowledge by special revelation (Matt. 16:17).
12.- Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and spokesman of Christianity.
13.- Peter is regarded by the common people in the same way (Acts 2:37-41; 5:15).
14.- Jesus uniquely associates himself and Peter in the miracle of the tribute-money (Matt 17:24-27)
15. - Christ teaches from Peter's boat and the miraculous catch of fish follows (Luke 5:1-11) perhaps a metaphore for the Pope as a "fisher of Men" (Matt 4:19)
16. - Peter was the first apostle to set out for and enter the empty tomb (Luke 14:12, John 20:6)
17. - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the Apostles (Mark 16:7).
18. - Peter leads the Apostles in fishing (John 21:2-3,11)
19. Peter alone casts himself into the sea to come to Jesus (John 21:7).
20. Peter's words are the first recorded and most important in the upper room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).
21. Peter is the first person to speak after Pentecost and the first to
preach the gospel in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).
23. Peter works the first miracle of the Church age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12).
24.- Peter utters the first anathema which is affirmed by God (ACts 5:2-11).
25. - Peter's shadow works miracles (Acts 5:15)
26. - Peter is the first after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40)
27. - Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).
28. - Peter is the first to reveive the Gentiles, after a revelation from God (Acts 10:9-48)
29 - Peter instructs the other Apostles on the Catholicity (universality) fo the Church (Acts 11:5-17).
30. - Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on behalf of an individual in the Catholic Age (An angel delivers him from pirson: Acts 12:1-17).
31. - The whole Church (Strongly implied) offers earnest prayer for Peter when he is imprisoned (Acts 12:5).
32. - Peter opens and presides over the first council of Christianity and lays down principles afterward accepted by it (Acts 15:7-11).
33. - Paul distinguishes the Lord's post -Resurrection apearances to Peter from those to other apostles (1 Cor. 15:4-8). The two disciples on the road to Emmaus make the same distininction (Luke 24:34) in this instance mentioning only Peter (Simon), even though they themselves had just seen the risen Jesus within the previous hour (Luke 24.33)
34. - Peter is often spoken of as distinct among apostles (Mark 1:36, Luke 9:28, 32 Acts 2:37, 5:29, 1 Cor 9:5).
35. - Peter is often spokesman for the other Apostles, especially at Cclimactic moments (Mark 8:29; Matt. 18:21, Luke 9:5, 12:41, John 6:67).
36. - Peter's name is always the first listed of the "inner Circle" of the disciples (Peter, James, and John - Matt 17:1, 26:37, 40: Mark 5:37, 14:37).
37. - Peter is often the central figure relating to Jesus in dramatic gospel scenes, such as walking on the water (Matt 14:28-32; Luke 5:1 Mark 10:28; Matt 17:24)
38. - Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy in Simon Magus (Acts 8:14-24).
39. - Peters name is mentioned more than all other disciples put together - 191 times.
40. - Peter's proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a fully
authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal decision, a disciplinary decree concerning members of the House of Israel (2:36) - an example of binding and loosing.
41. - Peter was the first "charismatic" having judged authoritatively the first instance of the gift of tongues as genuine (Acts 2:14-21).
42. - Peter is the first to preach Christian repentance and Baptism (Acts 2:38).
43. - Peter (presumably) leads the first recorded mass Baptism (Acts 2:41).
44. - Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).
45. - Peter Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for fifteen days in the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18) and was commissioned by Peter, James, and John (Gal. 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.
46 - Peter acts, by strong implication, as the chief bishop/shepherd of the Church (1 Pet 5:1) since he exhorts all the other bishops or elders.
47. - Peter interprets prophecy (2 Pet 1:16-21).
48. - Peter corrects those who misuse Paul's writings (2 Pet 3:15-16)


Now, put together the fact that Peter was indeed the head of the Church,
as ordained by Christ. Put that together with the fact that all historical
documents from the early church show that Apostolic succession was
indeed inplace and fully recognized (see previous post for links to
early church documents). There you have where the Pope's power
comes from. God Himself. (God Himself IF you believe that the bible
is the infallible Word of God).


[edit on 10/18/2004 by FlyersFan]

I was raised Catholic, and in being part of that religion ... as the years went on I began to see that many things that were said and done just didn't make sense.

I for one do not think the bible should be a text to base a faith on. It was written by individuals who supposedly witnessed these events. And, to be honest ... people are not the best judges when it comes to what they see for it is prejudiced with thier opinions.

The pope gets power from the many followers of the church. Plain and simple ... the mindless droves that believe anything you throw their way. Look at current events ... the current child molestation scandal. Many of the people in power refused to cooperate with the police and give information. Most of these priests were sent off somewhere else.

The power is in the people that are willing to be led ... plain and simple.