A Religious Gambit

So, I find that although I am able to relate to secular women fairly well, I do not think they are conducive to what I want in a relationship, which is exclusivity, trust and getting to know each other on a deep level, as well as a life-long commitment. It is definitely possible for some people to do this in a secular way, but I have read the writing on the wall and it is not for me.

So we approach the gambit.

I have a lot of experience in life as a Christian, growing up in a Episcopalian family - unlike everyone's views about Christianity, my family believed in science, believed in helping others and believed in treating everyone well. This included gays, atheists, black people, whatever - I never experienced anything at all like what people say religion is nowadays. Sure, we didn't do drugs or have sex with multiple partners at the same time, but that also brought with it a level of comfort, some order, and trust.

Enter college. I went to an extremely liberal college (very likely the most liberal one in the nation), that had a bar on campus, and once a month the cafeteria workers brought kegs out to the quad and poured free beer for everyone stopping by.

At first, I was at odds with the feminist faction at the college, which had a large hold on politics, and eventually a monopoly in the later years. I didn't agree with some of their views - namely restricting freedom of speech and supporting a culture where exclusive relationships were shunned. I wrote some controversial music that was meant to provoke discussion on how sex was being treated as more important than the relationships between people -

So, you might think that I would have continued this train of though, which some of you would consider motivated by my religious past, but that is not what happened.

Instead, I decided to listen to the feminists, I spent the last three years of college hanging out with girls, learning as much as I could about the philosophy and, not on purpose, ended up making best friends with a gay guy. I started a new band with him as the lead singer, which I am still in today (although he got married).

The question, of course, as we approach the gambit, has as much to do with religion as relationships. Like I said before, I have read the writing on the wall, and a secular relationship won't work for me. As I approach the stage in life, I have to make a choice.

So a choice? What kind of choice?

Well, I've gone and done it. I have contacted two people that I am interested in dating - one is a Christian girl, and the other is a gay, black man. Both seem to be quality people.

Am I going to date the Christian, and lead an exemplary lifestyle, marry, have kids, and continue my original vision of Christianity - to help others and accept all -

Or, am I going to become gay and start writing a blog on feminism from a vantage point where I am safe to promote women's rights without having to worry about being persecuted for being either a straight man or a Christian?

Probably neither. But I gave the universe a choice, and we shall see what happens.

Originally posted by darkbake
So, I find that although I am able to relate to secular women fairly well, I do not think they are conducive to what I want in a relationship, which is exclusivity, trust and getting to know each other on a deep level, as well as a life-long commitment.

I don't understand this line of reasoning at all. How are secularity and "exclusivity, trust, (and) life-long commitment" mutually exclusive? Are you implying that somebody can't possibly be trusted or maintain a healthy long-term relationship unless they are religious? What is your reasoning for this?

reply to post by darkbake


My personal opinion... there really is no such thing as bi-sexual people. If you are interested in your same sex, your gay, period.

Having a Christian relationship and being gay aren't always mutually exclusive though. Yes, the Bible may teach being gay is wrong but no more so than adultery, worshiping idols (materialism), etc. Jesus came to earth not to judge people but to free them from their sins. Being gay doesn't restrict you from following Christ and making Him an import part of your life and relationship any more than any other human imperfection...

If Christian relationships are important to you, try finding a "single's" dinner in a local evangelical church. I know my church throws event for singles monthly, in an attempt to match Christ seeking people together.

AND DON'T fall into the negative stereotype that all Christians hate gays etc. its simply not true. Many might think being gay is a sin, but no more so than a man that consistently cheats on his wife...

reply to post by Maroboduus


That is a very good question. I don't mean to imply that at all - I think it is very possible. For some reason, which I don't understand, it doesn't seem possible for me - although lifelong secular friendship is, for sure.

It is probably something psychological - something I'm sure I might be able to sort it out in the next ten years or less, but for now, this seemed like a good idea.

reply to post by darkbake

Originally posted by darkbake
So, I find that although I am able to relate to secular women fairly well, I do not think they are conducive to what I want in a relationship, which is exclusivity, trust and getting to know each other on a deep level, as well as a life-long commitment. It is definitely possible for some people to do this in a secular way, but I have read the writing on the wall and it is not for me.

Wow... I was so sad to read this. Exclusivity, trust and getting to know each other on a deep level were and are VITAL in my relationship between my husband and I (I am a "secular" female"). I don't know why you would think that these attributes are exclusive to a religious person, or that there's any guarantee that a religious woman would stick to them... MANY religious people cheat, are untrustworthy and eager to jump in the sack.

In fact, when I met my now-husband, I made a rule of 8 dates or 2 months before we even considered having sex. I believe FIRMLY in monogamy (for us) and our relationship is BASED on respect and trust.

I feel sad that you would judge someone like me as not trustworthy just because religion is not in my life.

Am I going to date the Christian, and lead an exemplary lifestyle, marry, have kids, and continue my original vision of Christianity - to help others and accept all -

Or, am I going to become gay and start writing a blog on feminism from a vantage point where I am safe to promote women's rights without having to worry about being persecuted for being either a straight man or a Christian?

I say date whomever you like, but please don't pretend to be gay to date a gay man. That would be using him and not at all moral, IMO.

If I were you, I'd go ahead and promote women's rights as the person you are. There are plenty of straight, white, male feminists. I'm married to one. Be true to yourself. If people persecute you, that's their problem, not yours. Be yourself, speak YOUR mind and don't hide from the consequences.

And give more thought to dating a secular girl. We have morals, and are really some pretty great people. I would never do ANYTHING to hurt my husband or lose his trust. Not because some book says it's wrong, but because I adore him and I would lose all self-respect if I purposely hurt him.

reply to post by darkbake

Am I going to date the Christian, and lead an exemplary lifestyle, marry, have kids, and continue my original vision of Christianity - to help others and accept all -

Or, am I going to become gay and start writing a blog on feminism from a vantage point where I am safe to promote women's rights without having to worry about being persecuted for being either a straight man or a Christian?

Probably neither. But I gave the universe a choice, and we shall see what happens.

I'm going to guess "probably neither" too.

In the end, it's your choice, not the universe's, but I highly recommend counseling in order for you to figure out who you really are before leaving anyone/everyone else guessing who the real you is.

Out of curiosity, are you of the belief that morals have no foundation outside of religion?

Originally posted by IsThisThingBugged
reply to post by darkbake

 

My personal opinion... there really is no such thing as bi-sexual people. If you are interested in your same sex, your gay, period.

Then you really don’t understand people or sexuality traits at all.

A person can be attracted to both men and women equally, that does not make them homosexual (or ‘gay’ in your book) it makes the ‘bi-sexual’ plain and simple.

Why don’t you try talking to one and find out some more?

Mickierocksman

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Thanks, Benevolent. I was completely open with the gay guy in question about where I'm at in life, and we are going to hang out as friends and see what happens. I will consider your advice on secular women, that was helpful.

I was worried how this thread would go, but it wasn't that bad. Thanks for the support everyone.

reply to post by Maroboduus


I actually believe that morals are easier to find outside of religion, this is something that I think needs to be explored more. My belief is in healthy and unhealthy values, with healthy ones being ones that help you and those around you reach your maximum potential.

That is important, as there is some risk that secular thinking could lead to things like eugenics or totalitarianism, which is not in the best interest of everyone.

I think that if this idea of healthy and unhealthy values, basically transcending religion, was allowed to be openly explored more, then we would end up in a better place.

reply to post by Deetermined


I have a counselor, but I have never brought the idea of my sexuality up before. In fact, contacting the guy I am interested in and bringing the subject up here on ATS are my first experiences discussing this openly. It was a little scary.

reply to post by darkbake


To get the full benefits of counseling, you may want to bring this up, but I also suggest speaking to others that you know who are in the same situation. This is where you will probably gain your most insight on how things might go depending on how you choose.

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned that the singer in your band is gay but got married. Who did he marry? Is this someone who might be able to help?

reply to post by darkbake


Bloody hell DarkBake!!

They're two words apart! If your hearts not telling you which.... Toss a coin!!

reply to post by Sinny


I thought you might be frustrated with me for some reason, yeah don't worry I think I'm okay for today at least. Not dating religious person. Probably going to hang out with the other person.

reply to post by darkbake


Nope, I only read your messages earlier, as they all ready appeared *read* you must have opened them in your outbox.

In regards to this situation, all the best

Thanks, Sinny! On a positive note, this is an example of exactly what happens when I relate to girls that I have recently met. I can get worried that I have offended them or something somehow, and if I don't hear back from them, I usually figure I should give them some distance and not talk to them again. It happens a lot.

So that's the situation that motivated me to try two new things, see? The guy and I have been talking, we are probably going to hang out a bunch but he thinks I'm a 2 on the Kinsey scale, which goes from 1-6, with 1 being straight and 6 being straight-up gay.

So the church girl didn't work out, but once again I made a new friend so. My adventure continues as I guessed it would, with neither one happening, a few things learned, and a new friend.

This should go in the relationships forum, sheesh.

reply to post by darkbake


Lol Darkbake, the trick is to care less about what other people think, I get the sense you over think things far to much...but you shouldn't care what I think!

One door closes another opens, I've recently discovered the hypothesis that there are no mistakes on life, only various paths that all take you home.

reply to post by darkbake


This is another of those conflicts that religious people just ignore. I'm pretty sure even you will come up with an excuse to the following. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just a conflict of thoughts.

True Christians follow the bible. When Christianity decided to keep the old testament with the new testament, back then it had to have been agreed upon that this complete book would define Christian beliefs.

Then, over the next couple thousand years, a few people (actually there are probably millions) declared, "Oh, I don't follow or believe in the Old Testament. I only follow the New testament." Others say, "I believe Jesus is god, but I don't believe Adam and Eve existed."

Now, YOU come along and say you are Christian and sexually attracted to your own gender. I have no problem at all with this. But, you can't say you are a Christian when your own bible wants to condemn you to hell for being gay!

More and more, people are carving up the catholic bible to fit what THEY want to believe, instead of following the whole book. What kind of a religion is this when every Christian believes that the bible reflects the WORD OF GOD, but, Oh, not THAT part of the bible. LOL

It's not a religion if nobody believes in all of its rules.

Maybe YOU should write a bible of your own and get people to follow it. I don't see anything wrong in following your beliefs, as long as you're not lying to yourself. Christianity wants gay people DEAD. You sir, are not a Christian.

Being gay makes you human - not a Christian.

Originally posted by darkbake


That is important, as there is some risk that secular thinking could lead to things like ... totalitarianism, which is not in the best interest of everyone.

Focusing on your idea of totalitarianism, how about this:

Believe in god, follow his rules, and go to heaven to worship him for all eternity.

Don't believe in god, don't follow his rules, and go to hell.

Talk about a totalitarian state that is not in the best interest of everyone!

reply to post by jiggerj


Ha ha thanks, I guess I'm not Christian anymore. It is good to see that clearly. You are right, sexuality is an issue that should be discussed instead of kept hidden. You make a good point about this.

I have actually been working on my own philosophy for a while now, you can read about it in the thread in my signature.

It is based on making healthy or unhealthy choices.

P.S. Thanks for stopping by. I have no idea how you found this thread.