Ohio Man’s Shooting of Ailing Wife Raises Questions About ‘Mercy Killings’, page 3

reply to post by Jakal26

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That is a straw man argument and you know it. "Us as individuals" and this guy and his wife being married for 45 YEARS is in no way the same....you know that!

Straw man argument huh?

It's not - and you know it :-)

Being married for 45 years doesn't give any individual the right to shoot someone in the head - it's not an earned privilege

This is absolutely about how we decide what we as individuals should or shouldn't be able to do in this kind of situation

More later Jakal26 - I'm out the door...

Originally posted by Astyanax
reply to post by Jakal26

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Complain about my post, then, and let the staff decide whether or not I am in violation of the site terms and conditions.

In most civilized countries, a man would find it rather difficult to get hold of a gun and shoot his wife with it. In America, it's easy, so these things tend to happen. America is also a country with a long and unpleasant history of citizens taking the law into their own hands, and this is one more example of such an action. Another American going for his moment of tabloid killing-spree glory, and terrifying a roomful of intensive-care patients in the process.

The Aug. 4 shooting, coming just weeks after a gunman killed 12 people in Colorado, sent panic through the hospital ward that another rampage was under way. “I hear screaming out there,” a breathless nurse told an operator in a call to 911. “I don’t know what’s going on.”

What is 'off topic' is your suggestion that this incident has anything at all to do with the euthanasia debate.

edit on 24/8/12 by Astyanax because: to add quote from OP article.

And you think stricter gun laws would have stopped him from strangling his wife? Poisoning her?

Guns are not the problem.

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

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"Us as individuals".....Me, as an individual, walking into the hospital room of someone I don't know....someone that I am in no way familiar with, looking at a medical chart (or not) and deciding they shouldn't live because of their supposed condition is not the same as a man and a woman that have been married for 45 years.

I didn't say he earned some privilege...not at all. But what he did have was a connection with her that nearly no one else possibly could, even if they weren't "that close" (I wouldn't know) he would have a certain "connection" with her on a level that only those married for extended periods (or those very very close...I would consider my wife and myself as such...we discuss things, not always this issue, but things like this on a daily basis) would understand.

Though, after going back and reading your comment over, I'm thinking that maybe I misinterpreted the way you stated it when I first read it....(The above is how I took it the first time around)

reply to post by Ear-Responsible

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And you think stricter gun laws would have stopped him from strangling his wife? Poisoning her?

I think they might have stopped him from killing her.

Guns make killing easy. That is their purpose. They also depersonalize the act of killing since no physical contact with the victim is required. And, of course, they are noisy and dramatic, which makes them more appealing to a certain kind of mind.

Anyway, as I have been at some pains to point out on this thread, my objection is not to the killing per se – I'm in favour of euthanasia myself. My point is that the incident we are discussing has zero implications for the euthanasia debate; it is just another manifestation of America's vulgar and tragic obsession with violence, particularly violence that comes out of the muzzle of a gun. And I deplore the OP's attempt to glorify this stupid, crass and vicious deed and its perpetrator. A 'real man', my foot.

reply to post by Astyanax

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And I deplore the OP's attempt to glorify this stupid, crass and vicious deed and its perpetrator.

At this point, I could really care less about what you deplore.

it is just another manifestation of America's vulgar and tragic obsession with violence, particularly violence that comes out of the muzzle of a gun.

That is just more of that thinly veiled hate speech for any and all Americans and you know it. (So do I...your bs doesn't fool me)

A 'real man', my foot.

And on top of that...you don't know how to read either do you?

I'll even give you the fact that my "a real man" statement might have been a bit over the top.....I'll concede to that. It was a bit of a knee-jerk emotional reaction, given I have "been there done that" with a loved one.....not once but twice. I guess my own experience clouded my judgment a bit. Yeah, I'll give you that much

That last quote...that was me...in this thread...try to keep up!

Guns make killing easy. That is their purpose. They also depersonalize the act of killing since no physical contact with the victim is required. And, of course, they are noisy and dramatic, which makes them more appealing to a certain kind of mind.

You know, I might even have been able to agree with this until you had to go adding that last sentence. I'm beginning to think you are the one with such a mind....you keep speaking on it like you have a very personal relationship with it.......otherwise, again, just more of your anti-american hate speech, thinly veiled for mass consumption.....the masses my even very well nod their heads to that garbage, but I won't. And you might not find many americans who disdain much of what america has become more than the one writing this message.

reply to post by Jakal26

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.....otherwise, again, just more of your anti-american hate speech, thinly veiled for mass consumption.....the masses my even very well nod their heads to that garbage, but I won't. And you might not find many americans who disdain much of what america has become more than the one writing this message.

I'm American (with a capital A)

I'm sick of the bloodshed - all of it from guns

Please - do go on and give us the example of how if someone really wanted to they could kill a man with a banana. This conversation wouldn't be the same without it

Originally posted by Jakal26
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

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"Us as individuals".....Me, as an individual, walking into the hospital room of someone I don't know....someone that I am in no way familiar with, looking at a medical chart (or not) and deciding they shouldn't live because of their supposed condition is not the same as a man and a woman that have been married for 45 years.

I didn't say he earned some privilege...not at all. But what he did have was a connection with her that nearly no one else possibly could, even if they weren't "that close" (I wouldn't know) he would have a certain "connection" with her on a level that only those married for extended periods (or those very very close...I would consider my wife and myself as such...we discuss things, not always this issue, but things like this on a daily basis) would understand.

Though, after going back and reading your comment over, I'm thinking that maybe I misinterpreted the way you stated it when I first read it....(The above is how I took it the first time around)

You were right earlier - about how most of us agree on euthanasia

There is absolutely nothing about what happened in that hospital room that is defensible - he shot his wife and muffed that up. Many want to give him the benefit of the doubt - as if what he was attempting to do was somehow noble

think about it

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

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Well, for one, if I wanted to kill another with a banana...(A ridiculous question might I add)...especially a man/woman that is laying in a hospital bed, unresponsive.....I could choke them to death with it...but that is obvious isn't it....

A thousand other things, all more lethal than bananas could be used....but of course, I am sure you know that as well....

The bloodshed in this country is not a direct result of guns....it is a direct result of plenty of other things, guns WAY the hell down there on the list....

Here, I have an idea....tell me how you quarrel the gun violence in say....or I don't know...a place that already has gun control........by banning guns....

Here, an example for you.
www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=14837582#pid14837582

What do you want to bet that not a single gun used was purchased legally?
I used to live in Chicago....plenty of guns, guess who has them....Criminals. Guess who doesn't have them (or would that be one of those obvious answers like the one you asked about bananas?)

Like I said, one will find few less irritated and more outspoken about what is going on in america than myself...I spent my day working at a community based kids day today and while there had a few minutes to talk it up with the local PD.....the ill-informed ignorance that was spouted my way, by them, was astounding...and we aren't talking what is being discussed here...We are talking, "marijuana is a drug and alcohol is not" (and that is word for word)...."we have a gold standard currency" (again, word for word)...."I am here to protect you" (court of law has ruled that is not the case) "the war on drugs saves lives but pharmaceuticals aren't 'harmful' drugs" (again...word for freaking word)

My point? Ignorance breeds violence in all its forms...and this is the COPS...not some gangbanger off the street corner selling crack and packing heat!

America being inundated by violent media, in all its forms, is a factor in all this....
The absolute fact that criminals don't fear the justice system is another...

What this country needs is deterrents, not gun control!
The problem (and this is mentioned by another in the thread I linked there) is that far too many in this country don't have the stomach for deterrents....they want more "moral" and politically correct "fixes".....the kicker? Those don't fix squat! They only amplify the problems....

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

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nevermind

Originally posted by Jakal26
reply to post by Spiramirabilis

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I'm American (with a capital A)

Jesus H Christ! What is it with some of you people and playing word nazi here....
I am sorry...sometimes my shift key sticks..I will make sure I buy a better computer soon so you will be please.
Give that garbage a rest!

temper temper Jakal26 :-)

it's amusing to me that you can get so riled up over pedantry - and yet see nothing wrong with accusing someone of hate speech when they express an opinion

more on topic - this won't get settled here tonight

I'm sure there are many more who agree with you than agree with me

Your argument is simplistic - it does nothing to change my mind

It may be that guns don't kill people - it's people that kill people. But it seems the killing is done more efficiently by people with guns

In any case, guns don't belong in a hospital - and shooting your wife in the head is not the way to show your love

goodnight Jakal

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

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There is absolutely nothing about what happened in that hospital room that is defensible - he shot his wife and muffed that up. Many want to give him the benefit of the doubt - as if what he was attempting to do was somehow noble

You know, maybe you are right in this regard.
I keep thinking about it and this is the case in many ways.

I suppose my benefit of the doubt comes from personal experience...watching another suffer.
In his haste to do what he might very thought to be noble, he might have done something stupid. Not sure how he "muffed up" shooting her....she died.
Anyways, that isn't my point.

I wonder, what if....in my experience...what if I had decided to say, inject my great uncle with a whole bunch of insulin....and let's say it didn't kill him. I wonder about your response then.

I get the fact that they were in a hospital...not really the best place to have used a gun....but it seems that it is the fact that he used a gun that has others hung up. It doesn't me personally....but then again, like I said....doing it in a hospital setting wasn't bright. So I will say, as I type while thinking...that I am still saying it might very well have been "noble" in thought, stupid in application...

What if he had went and bought a bunch of smack and injected it into her? What then? Still not "noble"? Or are we still hung up on the fact that he did it. (Again, not saying it might not come out that he just decided he wanted to hurry her along....but given the "fact", which isn't really "fact" yet, that he tried to shoot himself after her...I would imagine that isn't true)

reply to post by Spiramirabilis

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In any case, guns don't belong in a hospital - and shooting your wife in the head is not the way to show your love

That is something I can agree with.

The temper...I won't apologize for...too many word nazis. (or is that a capitol N)
It has nothing to do with his/her "opinion"....that isn't what bothers me. It is the blanket generalization of all Americans (captial A, just for you) portraying us all as these tabloid following, violence feeding junkies. Like I told him/her....I can even agree with a lot of it...for a lot of people. You just can't generalize like that and it could apply to so many more, I just get sick of it being used as fodder for those who hate everyone in this country just because we got pissed on when we were born here (by pissed on I mean by corrupt governments and MANY ignorant people)

Your argument is simplistic - it does nothing to change my mind

While the argument may be simplistic, it isn't illogical. Illogical is thinking that gun control works to stop those hell-bent on violence from being violent.
Asking someone how a banana can be used to kill someone is "simplistic"

reply to post by Jakal26

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You know, maybe you are right in this regard.
I keep thinking about it and this is the case in many ways.

I suppose my benefit of the doubt comes from personal experience...watching another suffer.
In his haste to do what he might very thought to be noble, he might have done something stupid. Not sure how he "muffed up" shooting her....she died.
Anyways, that isn't my point.

Now, this is something we can talk about

I'm so sorry you had to go through what you did - I've been through it too

It's excruciating and it can really mess you up

Giving him the benefit of the doubt - he may have thought what he was doing was the right thing to do

He did muff it up - she didn't die until the next morning. More suffering for her

He put the doctors and nurses through trauma - and I can only imagine what it did to their kids, family, friends...

Nothing good came from this - except maybe this discussion

And just a thought - if he hadn't had the gun he couldn't have done it all in such haste

reply to post by Jakal26

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Originally posted by Astyanax
Apart from those who have a practical use for guns, such as soldiers, hunters and bank robbers...

Originally posted by Jakal26
Ahhh, well...I guess I can keep my guns. According to you I have a "practical use", it is exactly what you said, hunting! So that's cool with me, we can stick with your opinion there.

You'll notice I also included bank robbers.

I don't consider people who get a thrill out of killing dumb animals mature. Eating the poor creatures you've killed does not excuse hunting when there is a supermarket down the road.

Society is in no way "properly functioning" and it has nothing to do with guns.

You have no idea what a malfunctioning society is. I do; I live in one. And the problems of American society have a great deal to do with guns; see my reply to Maslo below.

You know what I have been afflicted by? The fact that my government is out of control and acting like the freaking Fourth Reich....the fact that I know history and I know what happens when out of control, sadistic bastards have free reign because citizens are unarmed. I am afflicted by a lack of trust in those who ruined this country (the globalists). I am afflicted by a lack of trust in the guy down the street who bought his gun on the black market even when he was a convicted felon...If you think otherwise you are delusional! Plain and freaking simple!

The thought of a lethal weapon in the hands of someone who sees the world as you do is frankly terrifying.

I can get guns regardless....don't assume you know me. I have spent my life living in and around the "darker" elements of society...

Ooh, scary!

...I KNOW how they operate and how easy it is to acquire weapons.

Of course anyone can get a gun illegally in a country where it is so easy to acquire them legally. America is awash with guns.

*

reply to post by Maslo

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This is pretty stupid. I dont even own a gun, because I live in an area with basically zero violent crime, but if it was not the case, I would seriously consider purchasing one.

Nobody needs a gun to protect themselves unless they live in a place where society has broken down or hasn't been built up yet – North American inner cities, Brazilian favelas, frontier boomtowns like Ngorno-Karabakh, countries afflicted by civil war or ethnic conflict.

Gun is the great equalizer.

Agreed. It equalizes by reducing everything to zero.

In an ideal world, lots of things would not be needed. Sadly we dont live in one.

We may not live in an ideal world, but there is no shortage of properly functioning societies in the one we do inhabit. Its current social problems and the delusions of conspiracy theorists notwithstanding, the USA is one of those societies. Yes, there are places like Detroit, but – as you say – nothing is ideal in this world.

The social problems of America are much exacerbated by the difficulty of law enforcement when the populace is armed. Of course, right-wingers see this differently; they prattle about needing their popguns to defend themselves from the government, as if the weaponry and other offensive technology of the US military are going to be put to shame by a bunch of amateurs with Armalites.

The Second Amendment is just an excuse gun-lovers use to rationalize their need to tool up.

reply to post by Jakal26

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Originally posted by Astyanax
...America's vulgar and tragic obsession with violence, particularly violence that comes out of the muzzle of a gun.

Originally posted by Jakal26
That is just more of that thinly veiled hate speech for any and all Americans and you know it.

It isn't hate speech, it's the plain truth. Who are the great American mythic heroes? The cowboy with his six-gun and the Minuteman with his muzzle-loader. Take any aspect of American culture you care to name, from folk song to Hollywood blockbuster, and you will find it riddled with violence, most of it associated with guns.

Do people run amok and start spraying kindergartens with bullets in other countries? There are a few stray incidents, but the overwhelming majority of such occurrences take place in America. No other rich country has rates of murder, violent crime, domestic violence, infanticide, etc., nearly as high as America's.

Which country is the greatest military aggressor on the planet, forever attacking other nations? Did the Koreans shoot first? The Vietnamese? The Grenadans? The Panamanians? The Iraqis?

The American obsession with guns and violence is frighteningly real.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by Jakal26

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That is a straw man argument and you know it. "Us as individuals" and this guy and his wife being married for 45 YEARS is in no way the same....you know that!

Straw man argument huh?

It's not - and you know it :-)

Being married for 45 years doesn't give any individual the right to shoot someone in the head - it's not an earned privilege

This is absolutely about how we decide what we as individuals should or shouldn't be able to do in this kind of situation

More later Jakal26 - I'm out the door...

In agreement with this. Its one thing if a person is in advanced circumstances, and has covered every base they can, including all alteratives they would have researched from Iodide, C, baking soda/molasses and tons of things to research. Some have been cured in the late stages of cancer.

So, I could see if someone has tried everything and is in agony, doing this to themselves, suicide, in these circumstances does not have consequence.

But in no way shape or form would any family member have the right to pick up a gun and shoot their child husband, mother, spouse, friend or neighbor.

Its completely wrong and a very slippery slope to go down.

I feel sorry for both of them, actually, but that was not the right call to make.

And I really wonder how far into trying everything and all the alternatives they went.

What I would do if all else failed, is to hire a regressionist like Dolores Cannon and there are others, to do some Soul Regression, Inbetween Lives Regression and even to connect to Higher Self and seek spiritual healing too, and in the very least, bring connection to the person to their own Spirit and take away all fear.

But there is no way you could actively participate in sending someone on their way.

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