Are there any legit Gurus on ATS?

in matters of forgiveness.. there is nothing to forgive because noone is sorry. evil and good are two sides of the same coin.. and in many cases.. evil IS good and good IS evil.. by perspective.

killing may be considered evil
but what of killing in self defense of an assailant who would not quit until they were successful at killing you?

is it good or evil? are you sorry you killed the person in self defense? or are you sorry that your choice caused u to spend alot of time making statements to police, going to court, or how you view yourself based on your belief system of judgement in the eyes of your God.

if there were no consequences.. would you be sorry?

flip the script.. you are the killer. if there were no consequences would you be sorry? how many ppl would you have killed to this day if u couldve without facing any consequences whatsoever? if there is even one.. then you are not sorry.

but at the end of the day, the point is... evil is a perspective based issue. is it evil or good to kill millions of innocent women and children just because they happen to be in the same location as 'suspected international terrorists" who may or may not seek to attack your country? why is it ok for them to be caught in the crossfire. how is the act of aggression against a ppl that never did you any harm perceived as good? well in this particular issue we will have to look to the perpetrators of such doings as psychopaths. but they may see themselves in a totally different light. believing that what they are doing is right.

perspective strikes again. all things on this plain are both good and evil.. but really neither at all. it is all about how u transmute energy and how it's perceived by others.

in matters of forgiveness.. there is nothing to forgive because noone is sorry. evil and good are two sides of the same coin.. and in many cases.. evil IS good and good IS evil.. by perspective.

killing may be considered evil
but what of killing in self defense of an assailant who would not quit until they were successful at killing you?

is it good or evil? are you sorry you killed the person in self defense? or are you sorry that your choice caused u to spend alot of time making statements to police, going to court, or how you view yourself based on your belief system of judgement in the eyes of your God.

if there were no consequences.. would you be sorry?

flip the script.. you are the killer. if there were no consequences would you be sorry? how many ppl would you have killed to this day if u couldve without facing any consequences whatsoever? if there is even one.. then you are not sorry.

but at the end of the day, the point is... evil is a perspective based issue. is it evil or good to kill millions of innocent women and children just because they happen to be in the same location as 'suspected international terrorists" who may or may not seek to attack your country? why is it ok for them to be caught in the crossfire. how is the act of aggression against a ppl that never did you any harm perceived as good? well in this particular issue we will have to look to the perpetrators of such doings as psychopaths. but they may see themselves in a totally different light. believing that what they are doing is right.

perspective strikes again. all things on this plain are both good and evil.. but really neither at all. it is all about how u transmute energy and how it's perceived by others.

a gun is stored up energy waiting to be expelled. one man uses it to murder.. another man uses it to defend himself or others. it's still killing. so is killing evil.. or good?

Wandering Scribe, thanks for fencing with me! It was fun.

"The traditional role of the guru, or spiritual teacher, is not widely understood in the West, even by those professing to practice Yoga or some other Eastern tradition entailing discipleship. [...] Spiritual teachers, by their very nature, swim against the stream of conventional values and pursuits. They are not interested in acquiring and accumulating material wealth or in competing in the marketplace, or in pleasing egos. They are not even about morality.

Typically, their message is of a radical nature, asking that we live consciously, inspect our motives, transcend our egoic passions, overcome our intellectual blindness, live peacefully with our fellow humans, and, finally, realize the deepest core of human nature, the Spirit. For those wishing to devote their time and energy to the pursuit of conventional life, this kind of message is revolutionary, subversive, and profoundly disturbing." -Dr. Georg Feuerstein

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
The problem with "spiritual enlightenment" is that it does not exist. There is no single, defining truth, which will not fade, or be proven false at some future juncture.

It exists alright, I have seen absolute proof of this.

It is FACT.

The real problem is that people have Religion confused with "spiritual enlightenment".

The links in the OP are all about Religion (Buddhism specifically).

Religion is the very LAST place you will ever find truth or enlightenment.

Anyone interested in finding enlightenment needs to go straight to the SOURCE of enlightenment: GOD.

God does not need a middleman.

Religion is nothing more than a mind control tool manufactured to keep you deceived and blind to TRUTH.

God and Religion are diametrically opposed.

Religion is a massive LIE masquerading as the truth.

Religion lies, hates, and kills.

God is truth, love, and life.

Seeking enlightenment?

Seek the AUTHOR of enlightenment.

This slippery Beast, "Truth" slips through the seeker's fingers like smoke. It does not exist as an absolute. It cannot, no matter how hard you try, be captured, ratified, and pinned to a piece of paper with writing. It is wholly subjective, and only valid when considered by the particular subject. Apart from this, there is no creature called "The Truth".

There are however, many truths, many facets of validity one may take comfort from. These small truths are all we need. From moment to moment, they change and grow, or are lost in the sea of possibilities. All things are by turn, equally true, and at the same time, equally not true. Even some of the false things are true.

The Truth can't be seen, or heard, or smelled, it can only be told. And herein lies a mystery for those with eyes to close, or ears to block. Look inwards. That's where it sometimes rests from the burden of being hunted down by every questioning dolt who want's to capture the illusory prize of "The Truth".

reply to post by Murgatroid


What evidence do you have that it is only God?
Why not Goddess, many gods, or no god at all?
Why not the Noumenon, or the Noosphere?

What makes you think enlightenment must be spiritual, or religious, or anti-religious in nature? Why is common sense, understanding, and knowledge not enough to be considered enlightened? What do you, as an illuminated individual, know that an astrophysicist does not? In fact, I would be more inclined to believe a biologist, or physicist, or mathematician is more enlightened than any spiritually illuminated individual.

A spiritually enlightened individual bases their suppositions on feelings, intuition, and altered perception due to meditation, or enhancing substances. Their enlightenment deals with fantasy.

A scientifically enlightened individual bases their theories on facts and data, collected from experiments done on observable reality, with objective reasoning. Their enlightenment deals with reality.

I change my stance. Enlightenment does exist: become a scientist or mathematician to become enlightened.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by 0mage


Please... be quiet. I just felt the need to express this.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
A scientifically enlightened individual bases their theories on facts and data, collected from experiments done on observable reality, with objective reasoning. Their enlightenment deals with reality.

Your puzzle is missing some very key pieces, without them you'll never see the whole picture.

God speaks only TRUTH, man speaks LIES.

My signature says that EVERY key area in life has been subjugated: history, religion science, education, politics, etc etc.

Without the realization and understanding of this fact, NOTHING else will make any sense.

To infer that science is based on facts makes equally as much sense as saying that the NIST report is based on facts.

Spiritual enlightenment deals with fantasy, feelings, intuition.

Sounds to me like you are trying to describe Religion which is nothing but a massive LIE masquerading as the truth.

Religion can only pretend to be God. Unlike God, Religion lies, hates, and kills.

Scientific enlightenment deals with reality, facts and data.

Science deals with fantasy, deception, fraud and LIES...

The majority of science is Illuminati controlled and maintained DESPITE what any deluded scientists might say or believe.

Has Science become a Religion?

With respect to its great contributions to society, I think it is important to make a case that science is really affecting society more like a religion now than a field of study or a resource base of useful information. Many everyday people do not understand it at all and accept ALL its teachings on faith.

Unfortunately some scientists and academic professionals are not so noble and have perpetrated deliberate frauds and cover-ups of important discoveries.

Modern Scientific beliefs are based upon a leap of faith in the big bang theory. It has become a belief system based on faith and therefore another form of religion. Scientists, like priests can explain their beliefs but the everyday people accept it all on faith. Scientists and doctors are the priests of this new religion, getting angry and crying "heresy" when anyone respectfully disagrees with them.

Has Science become a Religion

Science - The Illuminati Religion and Mind Control Tool for the Masses

They Cast No Shadows by Brian Desborough

"Throughout recorded history, the Illuminati has successfully withheld from humankind major aspects of history and science in order to subjugate the masses"

"Historical, religious and political truths have been withheld from the general public in order to perpetuate armed conflict," he continues. "Similarly if the presently suppressed technology were to be made commercially available, disease, famine and environmental pollution virtually would become eradicated."

By manipulating the souls evolving on earth, the Illuminati have deliberately suppressed the spiritual facts of life, not to mention liberating technologies, which could bring plenitude to all.

Secrets of Suppressed Science and History

Secret Societies - Who Controls Knowledge?
by Dennis Crenshaw

"...the Illuminati eventually controlled the science departments in all collages and institutions of higher learning. The plan was to stifle scientific knowledge and then twist what was left to fit the science they wanted the people to believe. They accomplished this by adopting new rules in regards to scientific research.

With the control of science in their hands, and the discouragement of seeking new findings they took it a step further. Next, the Robber Baron flunkies of the Illuminati used their ill-gotten gains, under the guise of philanthropy, to establish “Foundations” and “Societies” such as the National Geographical Society and the

Smithsonian Institute “for the increase and diffusion of knowledge among men,” but in reality to help cover-up and hide away anything that doesn’t fit the accepted theories."

Secret Societies - Who Controls Knowledge?

reply to post by Murgatroid


* facepalm *

I really cannot believe I've found another advocate of the "science is a religion" group. I just got done debating with one of your colleagues. I'm half-tempted to just point to my discussion with that user, but, I'll oblige you and at least reply once to your asinine position.

God speaks only TRUTH, man speaks LIES.

First, prove that God exists. Second, prove that it is not Goddess, many gods, no god, the Noumenon, or the Noosphere. Also, you're a human, a man; by your own reasoning you're a liar. I shouldn't trust your words.

My signature says that EVERY key area in life has been subjugated: history, religion science, education, politics, etc etc.

And since you're own words contradict themselves, I have no reason to believe you. My status says I will be reincarnated again and again simply because I am self-aware.

Without the realization and understanding of this fact

You don't know what a fact is. You have beliefs, and suppositions based on conspiracies. Those are not facts, they are opinions. Badly informed ones at that too.

To infer that science is based on facts makes equally as much sense

Science deals with fantasy, deception, fraud and LIES...

Science is a collection of factually sound theories. The computer you're using is the product of scientific facts. The money you make at your job is given to you based on mathematically sound calculations, also science. The medication you take to suppress symptoms of disease are manufactured from scientific analysis and study.

I absolutely love the hypocrisy of the anti-science individuals using the machines and benefits of science. Give away the following things:

The House you're living in
The furniture you use inside of that house
Your computer, iPad, or laptop
Your cellphone
Your television
Any electronic device in your kitchen
Your AC and house heater
Any digital clock you own
Light bulbs, flashlights, and LEDs
Any iPods, walkmen, or MP3 players, and CDs you own
Any DVD, or Blue-Ray you own
Your car, truck, or moped
Your bicycle
The clothing you own
The shoes you own
Medicine you use to suppress symptoms of sickness
Antibiotics you take to fight viruses you catch
Every kind of soap you own
Any store-bought food
Any home-grown food which you helped grow
Any money you made at your job
Any jewelry you own

Every single one of those things is a product of science. The science of agriculture taught us to grow the food, to harvest it, and to help preserve it. It also helped us grow surpluses, cross-breed types of vegetable, and discover the proper nourishment to grow the most bountiful and helpful crops.

Science, specifically mathematics and physics, taught us the geometry for the architecture of the house you live in. It's understanding of how electricity works allows for iPods, cellphones, computers, and all of the fun little gizmos you play with and use to post on this very forum.

The scientific fields of anatomy, biology, and botany are responsible for studying the plants and animals who's vital life is used to make medicine and antibiotics. Everything from clothing, to soap, is a by-product of science. So any of that which you use, you must get rid of.

It was science which invented the furnace, harnessed electricity, and focused both of these toward inventing furniture, cars, and all manner of high tech gadgets which make your life as easy as it is now.

Only a liar and a hypocrite would use anything science is responsible for.
You use lots of things science is responsible for.
You believe in and benefit from science.
Therefore, you're a liar and a hypocrite.

Good day to you.

~ Wandering Scribe

Thank you for doing such an excellent job at illustrating my point:

EVERY key area in life has been subjugated: history, religion, science, education, politics, etc.

Without the realization and understanding of this fact, NOTHING else will make any sense.

A little bit overboard on the denial, personal attacks, and childish name calling (which pretty much destroyed ANY credibility you might have had BTW) but other than that, not bad...

Good day to you as well...

reply to post by Murgatroid

personal attacks, and childish name calling

I never resorted to any name calling, I only referred to you by what you are: a liar and a hypocrite.

A liar because you opened by saying:

God speaks only TRUTH, man speaks LIES

Now, maybe I'm not so good at this biology thing, but as far as I know you're not a plastic rubber ball. And, since you use English, I can safely assume you're a human being, a man. Men lie you said. You, therefore, must be a liar.

You are also a hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who says one thing, and does the opposite. Kind of like a Republican saying they are "pro-life" and then voting to take away health insurance which can save lives. You said:

Science deals with fantasy, deception, fraud and LIES

Your own claim means science cannot work, as lies, frauds, and deceptions do not do what they claim to do. But, since you use a computer or a laptop, probably have a cellphone, have driven a car, wear clothing, have eaten store-bought food, and trust the mathematics of your boss when he pays you... you're using science. Which means you're a hypocrite.

A little bit overboard on the denial

You're speaking as if my denial was a bad thing. My denial of obviously false claims is not bad. It's the greatest proponent of truth: to deny ignorance. Your denial, of science (which you use every day) is the bad kind of denial.

None of my credibility was destroyed. I simply showed you the error of your opinions. Man up and accept where you were wrong. That's the only way we can grow as individuals.

Good evening to you.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


Jeese, I have to initially agree with you when you called him a Liar. Using his own words to prove your point. But if you analyze it farther and a man says all men are liars, than, because he is a man, the whole thing is a lie and means man tells the truth which means the phrase will cycle forever. What happens if the person is a woman though? than your initial evidence is not applicable.

reply to post by rickymouse


Now you're just playing with semantics. A woMAN is still a man

As for the cycle, not necessarily. Since "MAN LIES" is the subject, then whether his words are lies or truths is irrelevant: they ultimately become a lie.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


You have no idea what enlightenment is. Actually you have many ideas about enlightenment but no experience of it so no cigar.
If you have not experienced it why do you think you are an authority on it?
You think that a scientist or mathematician deserves to be enlightened, i was told yesterday that nurses and doctors are worthy of enlightenment by another poster.
It is not something that you are worthy or deserving of - it is your true nature.

Humans do not know their true nature. They don't look at what they are. They have ideas about what they are, they have ideas about everything, but they don't actually know anything. There is just one thing that you can 'know' for sure - and when you know it you will 'know' the one truth.
And that truth shall set you free.

im legit. I dont want to have to prove it because i dont seek a following!

reply to post by Itisnowagain

There is just one thing that you can 'know' for sure - and when you know it you will 'know' the one truth.
And that truth shall set you free.

Hey! I didn't know the platitudes were on parade again today! Can I have a side of sophistry to go with that?

Humans do not know their true nature. They don't look at what they are. They have ideas about what they are, they have ideas about everything, but they don't actually know anything.

Awww, thank you! My checklist of "bad philosophies" for the day is complete.

I have two things for you:


1. To be enlightened means different things for different people, there is no collective experience of enlightenment which everyone experiences. Your own definition of enlightenment comes with your own philosophical bias. How do I know this? Because you disregard my version of enlightenment, so I know you will disregard any version of enlightenment other than your own. You're biased. Therefore you're not enlightened. I am also biased. As are every Guru, Yogi, and Monk on Earth. Enlightenment is subjective. Until you can scientifically prove that your version of enlightenment is the undeniable truth, it must only ever be a philosophical ideology.

2. There is no truth which will not change, that is the nature of being.

~ Wandering Scribe

[edit to add]

Nurses and doctors are pretty danged enlightened, you have to admit. When you catch a life-threatening disease it is not your meditation on being one with the Universe that cures you; it's a doctor. So yeah. Physicians, physicists, and mathematicians. I'd say they're the most enlightened.

[edit to add]

No person is a Sat Guru.(Fully Realized Being)
Sat Guru is a function.
It is the function of the Divine Person.

Adi Da said:"No one survives Enlightenment to
talk glibly about it."

There are no Sat Gurus on ATS.
There is a lot of evidence Sat Gurus exist.
Adi Da appeared as God Incarnate to His Devotees.
Adi Da Radiated Divine Grace to His Devotees.
Yet there is not much evidence that any Sat Guru or
any Teaching can produce Enlightenment in anyone.

One person in a billion for unknown reasons gets Enlightened
whether they like it or not.

PS: Scientists know a great deal about how things function
but no one including them knows what anything (space,time,
matter or energy) is.

Now this writing is Divinely Inspired:
Adi Da
I saw that there was only a simple activity and concept manifesting under the form of every kind of remedial activity. It was always Narcissus, the logic and activity of separation. I examined all of this yoga, all of this seeking and performing,
and all of its results, and I asked myself: Why? Why should such activities be engaged at all? What are the motives for meditating? And the more radical my understanding became, the more absurd, unnecessary and impossible it became to justify any of these exploits.
All ways showed themselves to be founded in some problem, some aspect of life as dilemma. There was the physical problem, the vital problem, the problem of the mind, the problem of spirituality and super-consciousness. There was the problem of morality, love, communication, sex, the problem of sin, suffering, the problem of powers, reality, truth, and the universe itself. Even the way of Ramana Maharshi was concerned with the problem of identity. But I saw that the problem, in and form, always had the same structure, and the same fundamental assumptions. Thus, I became concerned with motivation, the principle of these various kinds of action, belief, knowledge, etc. I saw that, since all ways were founded in a problem, real life must be founded in the understanding of the primary problem that is the source of all ordinary activity. only thus do we know and enjoy reality, even in spite of moment to moment problem creation.
I saw that understanding was itself motiveless. But everything else was in fact the avoidance of relationship, and this was their very motivation: Thus, the longer a man lives, the more complicated, contradictory and suffering life appears.
I saw that understanding was not some unusual, miraculous condition or perception. It is the simplest activity, utilized by everyone in his daily experience. It was only that men abandoned understanding in order to exploit the kinds of seeking. But when attention is drawn to understanding, the whole movement of seeking comes to an end. The man only understands where he would otherwise seek. Understanding was simply a matter of observing oneself in relationship, in action, in life. And if a man could be drawn to understanding and always firmly returned to it, he would begin only to understand. Understanding would replace ordinary habit of seeking and his consciousness and activity would become simplified, free of prior dilemma. And this very state, when it became the radical premise of anyone's existence, was not in any different from the primary realization of yoga or meditation. It was the same knowledge and capacity of fundamental reality, but radically free of any limitation to certain kinds of action, mentality or experience.
I saw that men could easily be turned to self-observation. And the process of observation could easily be maintained by proper guidance or "hearing." And that process of observing gradually saw the emergence of fundamental insight. Men could understand the radical nature of seeking, the adventure of Narcissus, the whole complex life of the avoidance of relationship. And when understanding arose men could easily apply understanding to moment to moment experience. Then understanding became the approach to life rather than all the automatic, confused activities of seeking, the drama of
Narcissus. In that case, understanding became enquiry in the form of understanding itself: "Avoiding relationship?" And the abiding in relationship with the use of enquiry became the fundamental activity of conscious life moment to moment or in special periods of enquiry which might be called "meditation."
Such a way might automatically produce the unusual phenomena of "kriya yoga" or the whole expanse of intuitive knowledge. Or it might simply realize the natural existence of no-seeking, no-dilemma, primary creativity and freedom. I have described these results as follows:
But the truth of real life is simply what is when there is a removal of contradictions, no-dilemma, no-search. It cannot be described, nor is any name appropriate for it. There is no motive to name it. It is not an object, not a supreme and other subject. It is not separate from the one who understands, nor can he separate himself from it. It is simply

The responses in ths thread amazed me.

I am nowhere near guru status - I have a big ego and don't have the unconditional love part for every other being.

From reading this thread. I would say that there's to one of you here that's different.

The responses in ths thread pretty much reek of ego.

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


This thread is about gurus so i assume we are speaking about the enlightenment that gurus know of.
Gurus free humans from believing in mind made delusion.
And yes there is one truth that never changes and this truth shall set you free from mind made delusion that is the root of human suffering.

I like your post. Interesting.

I certainly don't know everything, no one does. But I feel as if I have a good grasp of things. I'm definitely not searching for answers anymore. I still like to explore topic matter and you learn something new every day. But my spiritual philosophies are not going to make any dramatic change that's for sure. So I think you reach that point where you feel certainty in your beliefs and no ones gonna alter them.

For me it's christianity. So well as far as your website goes that to me is secular humanism. It's not real spirituality. It's a mask of basically two things:

1) Universal laws that God has built into the fabric of life. These are things you can infact develope as they are universal to all. And many end up taping into them unknowingly. The example that comes to mind is in the bible it says "As a man thinketh in his heart so is he". So that's basically the law of attraction summed up.

2) Much of the rest unfortunately uses a different type of power. And unfortunately it's demonic. The devil has created so many different forms of spirituality that appear positive. And even have positive outcomes such as healing and others. All in the name of deceiving the people using it. People use it, see some form of power there and then think that it must be exactly as it appears on the surface.

Perfect example of this. I was listening to the radio. A woman had went to see a phychic medium. The medium was able to tell her specific things about her grandmother who had just passed away. So I could tell by the conversation that she was 100% sold on that form of power or spiritualizm. But I seriously doubt that it would actually be her dead grandma giving the info to the medium. It was a demon. Demons are ex angels. They have basically super computers of memories. They can easily recall things that would often slip our minds. And or have our whole lives documented in some way.

Plus they have power as well. It doesn't matter if the specific event is good or bad. The key is as long as it tricks the person into beleiving and steering away from understanding the true workings behind the universe. And keeps them from learning about and receiving salvation. So that's why a lot of these spiritual things work to some degree.

I think way back, even I at one time might not have fully understood this. But it's pretty simple when you think about it.

As far as what amount of guru's etc etc. Well sure you might find people who are well versed and understand how to use a form of spiritualizm. And again on the surface it might work. But they often won't know whats' the real reason as to why or what's behind it. So if you call that a guru well whatever. But to me that's just a moron.

Like I was listening to Ekart Tole and I like his ideas. And they work to some degree if you're a buddist monk who has all the time in the world to sit around on his butt and think nothingness and just live in the present moment etc etc. And I agree with that. But then there's the rest of people who actually have to work. Who actually have real lives complete with problems that involve thinking to solve them. So unless everyone is to somehow become buddist monks sitting around living in the moment. This is pretty seldom. Now I know some people like this though. My mom is a perfect example. She lives in the present most of the time. She doesn't care about anything in the world. She's basically at a level of Christianity that is like buddist monk. Just content in everything drifting threw life content knowing she's on her way to heaven etc etc. But she's also retired and doesn't have to work. So that makes doing so pretty easy.

anyway enough said. It's a neet looking website but again, all those secular humanist forms of spirituality are all various deceptions from satan. They work to some degree using his power in my guru opinion.