Poll shows atheism on the rise in the U.S.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by grahag

Man has always created Gods for his lack of understanding in how things work or why things happen. For some people, that's not enough and they need to understand the WHY and HOW of something. People say it's divine because they don't know.

That's total BS. It's the worst kind of secular conceit. That's not the way it works at all. Spend a few years studying comparative mythology and you'll see. Or, stick with your secular conceit there, which you created for your lack of understanding in how things work or why mythology happens.

edit on 17-8-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

If you study one religion, you'll be hooked for life. Study two and you'll be done in an hour.

I was Catholic until I was left to my own devices to study on my own differing religions, which was about when I turned 15. After living life for 10 or so years as a Christian, I realized that the idea of God according to many different religions is self-defeating. It just takes a bit of critical thinking.

1) If god is all powerful and all-knowing, then how did Satan rebel? (Not a sign of omnipotence)
2) If god allows us free will, then why are we punished when we use it? (Not a sign of a loving father)
3) If god can alleviate suffering wherever it exists, but doesn't, does that make him worthy of being called God?
4) If God is all knowing and all powerful, then why does he need people to worship him? Does he lessen in power with less people believing?
5) How can he allow his people, his "prophets" and instructional material to mislead the public and actually do HARM to people not of that religion? (For a heavenly father, he's absent to the point of abuse)
6) If god gave man the power of free will AND critical thinking, then why would it be against his will for us to understand more about the universe to the point of where we don't believe in him because the signs point to him not being there?
7) Throughout the bible both old and new testament, there are references to god being merciful and loving, yet he tortures and lets suffer people who have never even heard of him. Is he testing us? If so, why? Does he not know the results yet? He's all knowing and all seeing, he can do all this without the tests. Again, not a good sign for an all knowing and all seeing heavenly father.

I've asked these questions of many different spiritual leaders and the answers have always been vague, but the most common is "It's His will and we can't understand the mind of God."

If that's good enough for you, the hey, that's awesome, but it's not good enough for me and the second you take your belief and make actions out of it to affect MY life, you're going to have a problem. Get your own house in order and BELIEVE what you want, but the second you ostracize me or call me out or try to affect me in the physical world with your belief, you'll get to see my lack of belief up close and personal.

It happens much too often where people want to tell me I can't drink or smoke or have sex with who I want or whatever it is because it goes against their religious beliefs. You're not my caretaker and I don't want or need your "help" in living a better life.

THIS is why we have more atheists, because people are starting to get more information about the world. They're tired of churches saying one thing and then doing another. They're tired of people judging them and making their decisions for them. They're tired of people trying to THINK for them. It's time you all thought for yourselves without someone else telling you how to think or how to act.

I'm a moral person because I treat people how I'd want to be treated. I don't tell you that you can't believe in your religion. I tell you my beliefs and why I think your beliefs are silly, but I never go out and try to make your decisions for you. Religion is a creation of man and it's imperfect like man and if there WAS a God, he had have this all sorted out thousands of years ago.

A proper and loving father wouldn't need to test his children if he was all knowing. He wouldn't let his children torture and kill his other children, and he'd give them guidance more than every 650 generations and he wouldn't count on the fallible man to spread his word.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by grahag

Man has always created Gods for his lack of understanding in how things work or why things happen. For some people, that's not enough and they need to understand the WHY and HOW of something. People say it's divine because they don't know.

That's total BS. It's the worst kind of secular conceit. That's not the way it works at all. Spend a few years studying comparative mythology and you'll see. Or, stick with your secular conceit there, which you created for your lack of understanding in how things work or why mythology happens.

edit on 17-8-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Oh, and your reply was essentially, "Nuh uh!"

Originally posted by grahag

If you study one religion, you'll be hooked for life. Study two and you'll be done in an hour.

Yeah. My search for factual proof of Jesus - - is what lead me to atheism.

Granted - - it was a 60 year quest involving many beliefs as well.

reply to post by grahag


Oh Really?? I guess I and hundreds of thousands of other people defy that rule then.

Grew up catholic, grew disenchanted with it. Discovered Judaism at around 20 - now 27 - and since then have studied every religion inside and out, have hundreds of books from Islam/Sufism/Ibn Arabi/Rumi etc, to Hinduism - Shaivism/Tantra, Vishnavaya, Shaktism, - Buddhism, of the Tibetan, Theravada, Mahayana and Zen traditions, Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Protestantism/Calvanism, and Bahai, Parsi/Zoroastrian, Native american traditions, ancient mesopotamian religions, primitive shamanic traditions, and all sorts of cults - gnosticism, hermeticism, neoplatonism, alchemy, theosophy etc, in between, and it hasn't in the least affected my firm belief in the Jewish religion.

I guess, in your case at least, if you know so little of religion, and haven't invested the time in studying with a sense of a search for truth, than I guess you would assume a superficial and generalized stance with regard to religion.

In any case, this flying spaghetti monster richard dawkins trite is so worthless and pathetic a term. But who are the people who read his books?? In my experience, people who aren't equipped with the knowledge to make a critical assessment of it, and therefore, will come away convinced with his arguments.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by grahag

 

Oh Really?? I guess I and hundreds of thousands of other people defy that rule then.

Grew up catholic, grew disenchanted with it. Discovered Judaism at around 20 - now 27 - and since then have studied every religion inside and out, have hundreds of books from Islam/Sufism/Ibn Arabi/Rumi etc, to Hinduism - Shaivism/Tantra, Vishnavaya, Shaktism, - Buddhism, of the Tibetan, Theravada, Mahayana and Zen traditions, Eastern Orthodoxy, Catholicism, Protestantism/Calvanism, and Bahai, Parsi/Zoroastrian, Native american traditions, ancient mesopotamian religions, primitive shamanic traditions, and all sorts of cults - gnosticism, hermeticism, neoplatonism, alchemy, theosophy etc, in between, and it hasn't in the least affected my firm belief in the Jewish religion.

I guess, in your case at least, if you know so little of religion, and haven't invested the time in studying with a sense of a search for truth, than I guess you would assume a superficial and generalized stance with regard to religion.

In any case, this flying spaghetti monster richard dawkins trite is so worthless and pathetic a term. But who are the people who read his books?? In my experience, people who aren't equipped with the knowledge to make a critical assessment of it, and therefore, will come away convinced with his arguments. [/quot




You don't need a religion to find the "truth"...it lies within all of us, and is brought about by a uniquely diverse array of personal experiences. I am not an Atheist by the way. I feel my personal religion helps me "fine tune" my truth and my love of God.

reply to post by Annee

Yeah. My search for factual proof of Jesus - - is what lead me to atheism.

care to share these sources.

I remember being Atheist/Agnostic and when studying the factuals as far as historic Jesus is concerned, there was never enough for me to take your stance, I'm talking years of books and websites.

Furthermore, I entered Christianity and tried my best to follw the teachings of Jesus, and after about a year of that, a vast array of Mystical experiences began to happen that have still lasted since then, forever cementing in me that he was real, for he basically said: Follow A + B and it will eventually = C experiences.

It was like my ego died and I started off as a blank slate, amongst probably a hundred other experiences.

So it all panned out. However when I go back and ask my old circle of Atheist friends about these awesome life changing permanent experience, none of them have had the same and have admitted that by the sound of it, they would like to have them and I have taught 3 other Atheists to be Christians and they too began to have mystical experiences quantifying to them that the teachings are factual.

So Annie, it seems you missed the boat somewhere and somehow concocted justifications to suit you.

As for me, I tried it out and worked beyond anything I could have imagined

I am sure it has been pointed out that being religious and being spiritual are two different things,

You don't have to attach the supernatural, or occult, or metaphysical to the the existence of god/creator, god is as natural as you or me, and we are made in his image.

To think we have the imagination the mental acumen, to full understand the hidden and secret mysteries of the universe is the height of arrogance.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

To declare without a shadow of a doubt there is no creator/god all the while claiming to be opened minded?
That's just the opposite of open mindedness.

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
People are beginning to see religion is nothing more than a Nigerian Email Scam. It was only a matter of time. It doesn't take anything away from the existence of a higher power. It only takes away the power of false divisive manipulating control machines called Religion. It's good to see more people are waking up. It's sad to meet someone who's mind has become so spiritually addicted and dependent on these clearly false beliefs. There's really nothing you can do but keep feeding them their religion drug. To take it away would make them crumble. It should be considered mental abuse to take kids to church.

edit on 17-8-2012 by spiritualzombie because: (no reason given)

Religion yes, control the masses yes, that is no reason to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Great seers, mystic, prophets,philosophers, scientist throughout history taped into something.

And I believe we are distancing ourselves from the source, where at one time we had a closer connection to something timeless and divine.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by ParacelsusPontifex

 

It's fair to have the opinion/belief that the cell culture constitutes a human life with a soul. It's an unfortunate irrational belief that is preventing great strides in medicine though. But you're right we can all have our opinions on the matter, but in the mean time other human lives are paying the consequence.

The Scientific 100:
A Ranking of the Most Influential Scientists, Past and Present
www.adherents.com...

www.godandscience.org...

Francis Sellers Collins (born April 14, 1950), is an American physician-geneticist noted for his discoveries of disease genes and his leadership of the Human Genome Project (HGP). He currently serves as Director of the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Prior to being appointed Director, he was the founder and president of the BioLogos Foundation, an organization which promotes discourse on the relationship between science and religion and advocates the perspective that belief in Christianity can be reconciled with acceptance of evolution and science.[1] Collins also wrote the New York Times bestseller, The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief, which discusses Collins' conversion from atheism to Christianity, evaluates the evidence for Christianity, and argues for theistic evolution.[2] In 2009 Pope Benedict XVI appointed Collins to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.[3]

Presentation by Dr. Francis Collins, head of the Human Genome Project and director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. Dr. Collins presents a case for harmony between faith in science and faith in God. He also shares about his personal intellectual and spiritual journey from agnosticism, to atheism, and to Christianity.

youtu.be...



His study of DNA led to a belief in god.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Annee

 

Yeah. My search for factual proof of Jesus - - is what lead me to atheism.

care to share these sources.

I remember being Atheist/Agnostic and when studying the factuals as far as historic Jesus is concerned, there was never enough for me to take your stance, I'm talking years of books and websites.

Furthermore, I entered Christianity and tried my best to follw the teachings of Jesus, and after about a year of that, a vast array of Mystical experiences began to happen that have still lasted since then, forever cementing in me that he was real, for he basically said: Follow A + B and it will eventually = C experiences.

I began my life with "mystical" experiences from birth. My earliest memories are OBEs. I remember floating out of my body up the wall of my room - - the ceiling disappearing then "flying". I remember flying over friends houses and seeing them asleep in their rooms. When I described their rooms to them - they got a little freaked out. Hey! I was only 5. How was I to know not everyone was like me.

I used to go to the "gray place" - - I remember it as being very dense and all loving. If I had to describe it - - I would say it must be like being in your mothers womb. Unless someone has actually had this type experience - - they can never fully understand all encompassing unconditional love. Coming back and trying to cope in the physical world is very difficult.

Needless to say - - I was a weird child. I preferred the company of the elderly and spent much of my life on roof tops or in trees. I liked to read the encyclopedia. I was interested in diverse cultures and what drove people to behave the way they did. I definitely did not fit this world.

What is God? Now see that is the real question.

reply to post by Annee

I began my life with "mystical" experiences from birth. My earliest memories are OBEs

if your obe's were like mine, were you completely separated from both the physical body and the thinking mind, then you must have wondered from whence does this consciousness come from if it is not reliant on body and mind.

In my case I even remember pre-existing prior to the body and mind and discussing with other units of bodiless consciousness, my birth into this world. Again the begs the question, from where do these units of consciousness come from wand how were they created.

I used to go to the "gray place" - - I remember it as being very dense and all loving.

which again has to make you wonder who created this gray place and how does it exist.

I was interested in diverse cultures and what drove people to behave the way they did. I definitely did not fit this world.

im with you on that. Same here. Even when I became a Christian, I didnt feel like I fit in with the rest of them, and then my mystical experiences brought me into question with the churches, so from then on out, I left organized religion and became a Christian Mystic. The experiences themselves freed me from the programming of this world and brought me back to a child like wonder and awe of everything. But it was the esoteric inner deeper teachings of Christianity, and Grace, that freed me.

What is God? Now see that is the real question.

Ha!!! Good luck with that. I've been wondering and researching for 20 some odd years this question and came to the conclusion that the mind is too limited to know, but we can still experience and have access directly to God. I've glimpsed such a Being off and on if for a few seconds at a time and it is better than anything I can think of that exists on earth ...wouldnt trade for the world..

oh, and you might like to hear this, this experience of God, isn't reliant on a religion. It is there for anyone to discover. Religions came in afterwords to try to label something that is impossible to label

Originally posted by dominicus
. . . . but we can still experience and have access directly to God. I've glimpsed such a Being off and on if for a few seconds at a time and it is better than anything I can think of that exists on earth ...wouldnt trade for the world..

Why have you resigned yourself to thinking it is God?

Because you were assimilated into a world of God belief?

What if it is something else?

Collins,
I was a scientist, I looked at the evidence, but then I realized I had never looked for the evidence of god, I had settled into a sort of comfortable atheism

I never tried to figure out at any point why believers believe..

Assumed it was some kind of emotional reaction to some kind of experience they had.

He asked, Point to some evidence that god was at least PLAUSIBLE.

The book was,
Mere Christianity is a theological book by C. S. Lewis,
en.wikipedia.org...

Faith may actually be a RATIONAL choice.

He always thought that faith and reason were opposites, but the fact is reason and faith go together.
additional element, revelation,

Physics seems to suggest that the universe is put together by a Mathematical mind.

To unimaginable unlikely to be just a coincidence, the forming of the universe and the existence of life.

Sign post
The Moral law, a theist god, right and wrong a clue to the meaning of the universe.

Radical altruism. risking one life for others outside the tribe, considered most noble.
( let me point out that on this forum I hear a lot of people that think we should let abusive cultures oppressive cultures be, after all that is their culture.)
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Complexity and life and "CONSCIOUS" LIFE.

What is God like?

Isn't evolution compatible with faith?
www.colbertnation.com...

Colbert doesn't think it is necessary to understand how the universe works, i would call that limiting ones imagination, weird

40% of scientist believe in god.

He goes into chromosomes and DNA ,

Atheism the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative?
GK Chesterton.

youtu.be...

I am still listening to it, BTW.

reply to post by Annee

Why have you resigned yourself to thinking it is God? Because you were assimilated into a world of God belief? What if it is something else?

cause the way I came to this experience, was through simple logic and reason. I wrestled with a Koan, but the koan was basically an exercise in transcending the limits of logic and reason....

....what ended up, was an experience of something so Vast, that there is nowhere which this "Beingness" isn't. Its like the invisible foundation of all of reality and exists prior to life, death, thought, etc.

So then after the experience, I hit the books and then net to see who else is talking about it the similarities to what I experienced and I found Vast sources of blueprints, testimonies of mystics across the globe not contingent on time, race, gender, or belief system.

So my experience of this "Beingness" has been substantiated historically and by tons of references. I say this because to explain the experience properly, requires having had the experience itself. It would be impossible to fake, let alone comprehend the mechanics of such a thing, unless you intimately knew it yourself.

So then in retrospect, I found that all the religions formed to try to gain access to that "Beingness" (which originally may have actually revolved around a person who genuinely was in direct access of this Beingness) but these structures and organizations have become watered down, polluted, corrupted, and people taking this outer shell, and committing acts in the name of a shell which has nothing to do with the actual Beingness itself.

I hate organized religion as much as the next man. But I found that religion is so wide spread and so powerful, because the very tiny nucleus with religions, is usually centered around truths, which are completely misunderstood and covered up with the crazy acts of animalistic chaos.

The Evidence

reply to post by silent thunder


Now i know all I am about to post will cause anger in some, hatred from others, possibly, and most likely a huge possible argument, so before all that happens, I will go ahead and say, I will not fight, or argue with anyone. I am simply posting to present 'some' evidence. People will believe what they want to believe, but those who want to see the Truth, let them see, and believe. Again, I will not reply to those who are filled with hatred, and only want to ask the same questions, over and over, only in different ways. I understand, 'as much as humanly possible', the Truth, and God granted all free will to accept the Truth, or rebel in ignorance. Do what you will, but the Truth will always dominate. I will provide three links. One, supporting evidence for Creation, pointing out deception from the evolution fantasy; two, a video giving new found evidence proving the Shroud Of Turin is authentic, and three, a video explaining archaeological evidence documented, and found proving three main historical events from the word of God, the Bible. Most won't even click on the links. That is why I will not reply. I have much experience dealing with agnostics, and atheists, and I have learned that some refuse to even listen to reason, and/or logic. So if you really do seek Truth, then you will take the time to watch these videos, but if you want to live in ignorance, by all means, you have the right. After all, God did grant us free will. I will also add a fourth video, for all who claim to be agnostic, or atheists so that you, or they may watch, and hear questions that will possibly make you, or them to second guess what you, or they now believe. To all people. God has blessed. It is up to you to accept His grace, or deny it.

The Hal Lindsey Report

Shroud Of Turin %100 Authentic

Archaeological Evidence Proving Historical Events Of The Bible

Questions For The Atheist/Agnostic Mind-set

reply to post by Annee


Annee, please don't take offense to this, but my gut instincts tell me that at the very core of your subconscious being, you are definitely not an atheist.

I never thought you were, I doubt most are.

Atheism is kinda like cloaking yourself in this protective bubble to protect yourself from the fear of the unknown.

I see you coming around soon.

Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by Annee

 

Why have you resigned yourself to thinking it is God? Because you were assimilated into a world of God belief? What if it is something else?

cause the way I came to this experience, was through simple logic and reason. I wrestled with a Koan, but the koan was basically an exercise in transcending the limits of logic and reason....

....what ended up, was an experience of something so Vast, that there is nowhere which this "Beingness" isn't. Its like the invisible foundation of all of reality and exists prior to life, death, thought, etc.

So then after the experience, I hit the books and then net to see who else is talking about it the similarities to what I experienced and I found Vast sources of blueprints, testimonies of mystics across the globe not contingent on time, race, gender, or belief system.

So my experience of this "Beingness" has been substantiated historically and by tons of references. I say this because to explain the experience properly, requires having had the experience itself. It would be impossible to fake, let alone comprehend the mechanics of such a thing, unless you intimately knew it yourself.

Again.

So why do you call it God?

reply to post by TheBeatMasta


I will check those out, thanks.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


I think a lot of us atheist's call ourselves atheists, because we don't believe in the God's of the abrahamic and other religions. It just makes for a clear distinction, to help avoid the notion that we are undecided about those faiths. Well I'm talking for myself personally. Of course none of us know how it all began, but some of us are not content with the religious explanation.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

I think a lot of us atheist's call ourselves atheists, because we don't believe in the God's of the abrahamic and other religions. It just makes for a clear distinction, to help avoid the notion that we are undecided about those faiths. Well I'm talking for myself personally. Of course none of us know how it all began, but some of us are not content with the religious explanation.

Yes - I think that is it. And as a result we have Spiritual Atheists.

Obviously something happened that caused a creation. But what was that something?

I will never call it God - - - because to me that represents organized religion.