The Problem With God

reply to post by windword


Well, at least good ole' Yahweh wasn't boring right? Who'd want to read the book if it was boring?

I'm not religious, nor tied up into one set of beliefs and I consider myself open spiritually. But it doesn't make me upset or angry when others have different belief sets from mine, it will always be that way. Always has and always will. We are creatures of habit, to believe anyone can change deeply held religious beliefs for someone else, is already fighting a losing battle. We only change those things for ourselves, and it is usually a cataclysmic or life-changing event that causes the change.

Remember it's all a load of bum poo.................................

reply to post by davethebear


HAHA! I concur! Those are some real words of wisdom, you wrote down there!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by davethebear

 

HAHA! I concur! Those are some real words of wisdom, you wrote down there!

Thank you windword..................You know where I am coming from don't you? You understand, but unfortunately millions of others don't...That is why their brains are totally full of bum poo............

Originally posted by windword
Right off the bat, this God of the Bible has adversaries. In fact, one third of the population of heaven rebelled against this God. Why, we wonder. It was because of us. God loved us more than he loved those angels, and they got mad. What did he do? He gave the leader of this rebellion dominion over the earth, where he put Adam and Eve!

He created them. male and female, 2 fully developed humans. They never learned to stand or to fall down, never felt a mother's unconditional love or got a hug or a spanking. Then this God leaves them alone, while he goes off, who knows where, and leaves the devil to babysit.

Hey, a snake is a snake, everybody knows that. But God is surprised that Adam and Eve were seduced by the very guy who led one third of God's heavenly population into rebellion! So what does God do? He throws them out of the garden and curses the woman to sorrow in childbirth.

Then he continues to allow these rebellious "fallen angels" to rape the daughters of Eve, and bring forth monsters to torture the sons of Adam! Then he sends a flood and kills almost everyone.

Then fast forward to Moses, who got into trouble for killing an Egyptian soldier, and had to flee from Egypt. He sees a burning bush and hears a voice that tells him to do stuff, and he calls this voice God. He tells us that this God has rules for us to follow.

These rules are flawed from the get go! Of course the first rule is not to question God and we are ordered to obey, love and respect this God. Oh yeah, the law says not to kill too. I guess it was important to emphasize that since Moses was a murderer. And we are also told, in these ten commandments, that women are property, the same value as man's donkey, or ass, as the Bible says.

Then this supposedly loving God sends his son to be murdered by an angry mob, to cleanse our "sins" because he loves us so much! Only if we believe the story, are we saved from his own wrath. Then, we are promised the 2nd destruction of the world, by the return of a vengeful God, who is to separate the good people from the bad, who are doomed.

Yep, that's one "loving" God, huh? Thanks for allowing me to rant, guys!

edit on 9-8-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

Hey winword, this would be another misrepresentation of the bible. And it is kind of funny. Guess what we are the sons and we are taking the daughters of men as wives, and sometimes our kids are extraordinary. Back in the day they called these extraordinary kids Nephalim, we call them Genius or Child prodigies.

The only thing in creation that was called sons of God is us. Understand the bible only refers to Jesus and us as sons of God. So if he says sons of God he must be speaking about us. This really should not need to be debated.

Angels are always called Angels. The bible says Adam was both male and female when created and Eve was taken out of Adam. The bible says that we will be like that again in heaven which is why there will be no marriage. Because spiritually we will all be male and female. Even the separation of Gender goes away.

First if Angels don't marry as clearly stated then they don't have sex with women, because God considers the act of consensual sex as the act the consummates a marriage. So the angel having to abide by God's law would have to marry the woman which the bible claims directly that Angels don't marry.

The more hidden message is that God is male and female. The angels are male and female. And some of our kids our amazing.

Believe who you want. But the whole Angel, women, Nephalim concept doesn't make any since and it's kind of creepy.

reply to post by CirqueDeTruth

Well, at least good ole' Yahweh wasn't boring right? Who'd want to read the book if it was boring?

I disagree. It was a very boring book. I'm surprised I managed to finish it. Although, to judge by their conversations and arguments, I'd have to say a lot of the average Judaics you meet on the street might have skipped a few chapters themselves...

reply to post by sacgamer25

Hey winword, this would be another misrepresentation of the bible. And it is kind of funny. Guess what we are the sons and we are taking the daughters of men as wives, and sometimes our kids are extraordinary. Back in the day they called these extraordinary kids Nephalim, we call them Genius or Child prodigies.

The only thing in creation that was called sons of God is us. Understand the bible only refers to Jesus and us as sons of God. So if he says sons of God he must be speaking about us. This really should not need to be debated.

The early Hebrews were polytheistic and believed in more than one God. The "Sons of God" are mentioned many time throughout the Bible.

Take a look at Deuteronomy 32:8-9 (King James Version):

"When the Most High divided their inheritance to the nations, When He separated the sons of Adam, He set the boundaries of the peoples According to the number of the children of Israel. For the LORD’s portion is His people; Jacob is the place of His inheritance."

This is based on the traditional Hebrew text, otherwise known as the Masoretic text (MT). Now look at a much older version of this text that was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and matches the Greek Septuagint text:

"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance." What on earth is going on here?

The older text clearly shows that El Elyon is the father of all the gods, and Yahweh is simply one of his sons. El Elyon divides up the various nations and allocates a portion to Yahweh. The later version of the text simply merged these two gods into a single being.
fuzzyquark.comxa.com...

The Book of Enoch and the Book of Jubilees also claim that the "Sons of God" did intermingle and marry the daughters of Eve. The Book of Jasher claims that they were engineering new animal species by mixing two distinctly different species together in "laboratories."

It is my contention, that if these "gods" did exist, then they were ancient aliens temporarily representing some off world corporation. In Psalm 82 they are condemned to experience death, just like the men that they have exploited.

Was that why Jesus had to die?

reply to post by windword


Just so you understand my reason for not believing or drawing conclusions from anything sounding biblical that is not in the bible, because it is not there.

Personally I don't believe I can say God is love then send someone on a wild goose chase to find the truth that is hidden amongst various texts because the God that "loved" us allowed the truth to be scattered all over the world making it nearly impossible to find.

Or I can believe God is love, and the most loving thing would be to put it all together in one book. I do believe that God is love and my answer appears to be more loving.

Yes I too have fantasized about the Nephalim as pertaining to Aliens and other such but the truth is still the bible only makes reference to the sons of God when he is speaking about us.

If we assume the bible is the word of God, we stick to just the biblical text and we go with the interpretation that is the most logical than my interpretation seems to be the simplest and most logical. And it matches with observable science. We can see that sometimes our children our prodigies, Nephalim.

Does it at least make since why I refuse the biblical sounding books that are not in the bible. This does not mean that I disregard other religious text because I think they too contain much wisdom, but texts outside of the bible that make claims to be biblical I simply reject. God could have protected those gospels and ensured they were their if they belonged there. Since he could have and it would be loving for him to have, than we can be sure that only what belonged there is in there.

Not asking if you agree, just do you understand?

reply to post by windword


The OT speaks of the Father and the Son, I have yet to completely grasp that relationship as it pertains to the OT, but they are both clearly there as you point out. The light in Genesis 1:3 is the son. So you can see that the firstborn of all creation was the light, the son, the Christ.

LOVE is the father and love is the son.

It is like this LOVE created love, and gave his love to the world so that we may return to LOVE. If you can see this relationship and apply it to other things in the bible.
The only way to LOVE is love.

You have seen love, so you have seen LOVE, because I am in LOVE and LOVE is in me.

Anyone who does not believe in love is condemned already. Because they have not believed in the love that comes from LOVE.

No one can come to the Love except through love.

When you look at these verses in relationship to love, they no longer create separation. Because all they really say is pursue love and you will find love. Pursue something else and you will find something else. But love is the only place where your spirit is at rest.

I have contemplated but not received divine inspiration that the use of Sons of God and Sons of men has a meaning. In a physical sense we are sons of men, and we follow what are natural fathers teach us, even if some of what they teach us is wrong, we often simply accept our parents words. Because we are sons of men. But in a spiritual since we are sons of God. Our spirit listens to God and Gods wisdom is perfect. When we learn to stop listening to the flesh and concentrate only on the spirit we find that God is love, just like the bible suggested.

Again I would just like to point out the above understanding (pertaining to Nephalim and sons of God) is from me, I have not received confirmation from the Holy Spirit. I point this out simply because I claim to communicate with the Holy Spirit and that I receive interpretation directly from him. I do not point this out to brag but rather protect myself from judgment. If what I said is wrong I want to clearly state that this was my idea.

When I offer you interpretation or advice based on the interpretation in my head I don't feel the need to say this because I believe the interpretation in my head is divinely inspired. Just clearing that up mostly for myself.

reply to post by sacgamer25


Your logical processes are fallacious in the sense that you place too much trust in the men whose hands are responsible for the condition and contents of the Bible. You can babble on and on about how "God" inspired the creation of the Bible, but in the end, it was men who organized, revised, reviewed, redacted, reworked, and resold it. In the end, not a single hand in the publishing process was anything other than mortal - and with that, comes susceptibility. In a world where physical stimuli are so much more rewarding, and where death is a very real threat, it's asinine to think that those men might not be influenced one way or another by officials who recognized the potential in such a pervasive tool.

The Book of Eli very clearly exemplifies this. The man who holds the word of god is the man who controls the minds of the world. Your life will have meaning in the midst of all this chaos, if you just trust in what I have to say. Why should you trust me? Well, I speak for this deity. And trust me when I say that you don't want to screw with this deity.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Your logical processes are fallacious in the sense that you place too much trust in the men whose hands are responsible for the condition and contents of the Bible. You can babble on and on about how "God" inspired the creation of the Bible, but in the end, it was men who organized, revised, reviewed, redacted, reworked, and resold it. In the end, not a single hand in the publishing process was anything other than mortal - and with that, comes susceptibility. In a world where physical stimuli are so much more rewarding, and where death is a very real threat, it's asinine to think that those men might not be influenced one way or another by officials who recognized the potential in such a pervasive tool.

The Book of Eli very clearly exemplifies this. The man who holds the word of god is the man who controls the minds of the world. Your life will have meaning in the midst of all this chaos, if you just trust in what I have to say. Why should you trust me? Well, I speak for this deity. And trust me when I say that you don't want to screw with this deity.

If there is a God, he created everything we see. I loved the movie "The book of Eli". In the movie he is the protector of the word. God has him memorize the entire book to protect it. If we can imagine a scenario, and make a movie out of it, do you not think that God also could imagine this scenario?

If God placed the bible in my hands and said this is the last copy protect it with my life, you would have to pry it from my dead hands to use it. I most certainly wouldn't reveal to you what is said, and if I did you wouldn't believe me anyway.

I simply imagine a God who put a book in the hands of men who loved love more than they loved themselves. And to preserve the message of love they sacrificed their lives to assure that for 2000 years the words have not been changed. There meaning has been twisted by those who are more interested in control and corruption than righteous living. But they did not read with a sincere heart so they did not receive a sincere message.

The message they received is of no value to them because they did not apply it with faith. They did not do what the bible teaches so they received nothing of value from it. The bible predicted this and said the whole world would be fooled by their false translations.

If I am right, that God is love, then even this prophecy is true.

reply to post by windword


He's much warmer and fuzzier in the New Testament....I guess that's what having a kid out of wedlock will do to you...(he never did marry Mary, right?).... He mellowed out a bit after being a daddy. No more pillars of salt, 10 plagues, etc. He retired and groomed his son for the family business I suppose....

reply to post by sacgamer25


Why not place all of your faith in yourself? You can be your own god. You don't need to rely on external powers to give you hope and happiness. You can be everything you want, anything you can imagine, by the sheer force and power of your own human will. You don't need anything else. You're Homo Sapiens. We made it this far by refusing to say "No, we can't do that."

Everything I've read about "God", I can see the the human species around me. Godliness is a perspective, divinity a state of mind. We are the very powers we worship. If we realized that, and seized our full potential, we could realize heaven on earth without the god of Abraham lifting a single finger. And maybe that's the point of it all.

reply to post by windword


And if you're going by Old Testament he commanded genocide several times.

What a guy, huh?

He also made murderers and absolute liars some of his "most beloved".

WTF

Yeah I'm agnostic.

But remember all books in the bible were written or attributed to men decades and even centuries after the original things happened. Maybe some "covering ass" and also embellishments?

reply to post by sacgamer25


Sac,

You MUST realize that the Bible, the one that we read today, is not the Torah that was, supposedly" given to Moses!?

The Torah, as Jewish scholars insist, is not to be taken literally, but metaphorically, allegorically and metaphysically. The Hebrew alphabet is an amazing thing. It's a knot, a donut wrapped in an enigma. It needs to be viewed from afar to see the big picture. I must have been handed down to us from some more advanced culture.

You might like this video.



More, if you're into it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

We are the very powers we worship.

You are correct and I worship love. Love is my power.

Originally posted by CirqueDeTruth
reply to post by windword

 

Well, at least good ole' Yahweh wasn't boring right? Who'd want to read the book if it was boring?

I'm not religious, nor tied up into one set of beliefs and I consider myself open spiritually. But it doesn't make me upset or angry when others have different belief sets from mine, it will always be that way. Always has and always will. We are creatures of habit, to believe anyone can change deeply held religious beliefs for someone else, is already fighting a losing battle. We only change those things for ourselves, and it is usually a cataclysmic or life-changing event that causes the change.

Yahweh is the ghost writer, original scribes, hear/ear say contributors not available. Who publishes a book without any authencity? Any lead story in a reputable newspaper (remember those) needs at least 3 corresponding valid SOURSES independent of each other corroborating the same information. Different Belief SYSTEMS?

I challenge you now to bring to the table for a DEBATE (or a very serious discussion); any expert diabiologists MA literature degree holders (of your choosing) but confined to MAD MAGAZINE, Grimms Fairy Tales, Mother Goose and The Bible (any version) representatives, the Forum? ; your kitchen or mine. I will bring my brigade as well; (a noted and highly acclaimed cast of cartoon characters) to flesh out the validity of God.

The only thing that will change anything cataclysmically is the premature death of ALL participants.

reply to post by sacgamer25

Anyone who does not believe in love is condemned already. Because they have not believed in the love that comes from LOVE.

No one can come to the Love except through love.

Whoa, hold on there. You people make love sound like it's an absolute thing. It's not. Love means something different to everyone. Should we be condemned because we see love differently? Do we have to see it the same way the Bible describes it? I don't see why anyone should be damned for loving differently than "God" does.

reply to post by windword


Agree agree agree with the OP.

Part of what led me to agnosticism.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by sacgamer25

 

Anyone who does not believe in love is condemned already. Because they have not believed in the love that comes from LOVE.

No one can come to the Love except through love.

Whoa, hold on there. You people make love sound like it's an absolute thing. It's not. Love means something different to everyone. Should we be condemned because we see love differently? Do we have to see it the same way the Bible describes it? I don't see why anyone should be damned for loving differently than "God" does.

There is a love from God that comes by faith, it is impossible to explain but only when you can fully grasp the love from God that you can see the absolute truth which is love.

You are on a journey and it matters only a little if you understand love exactly the same as me. What matters is that you pursue love. That you use your power to pursue love and let love become power in life. Even science agrees that love has the power to heal. To what extent, I don't know, but maybe if Jesus was love and the apostles found the full extent of that love, maybe they had so much love that it not only was capable of healing themselves but the light actually radiates from them healing others.

We are not born to really know love, we have an idea and a concept of love that we seem born with. This sets up our moral code, some of it seems inherent while some of it is taught to us. But for it to make since we must accept or at least fit in each thing under this code and decide right from wrong.

The problem lies here, we try to define love without knowing the source. And when we know the source the only way to really demonstrate that I have found what I claim would be in person. Because to you what I say sounds no different than most people who are new age claiming love is the way. I have simply incorporated the bible into an idea. But I say this is not what happened; I say that Jesus actually started the concept that God is love.

This is why you cannot create a religion based on the bible. The bible claims God is love, how can love be a religion? Are you afraid to worship love as if it is the only thing that matters? Why? You already know you have the power to control your life so why not point yourself towards love and see where it takes you?

We have many years on this earth but are promised not one of them. There are many things that we purse while we are here. I am asking everyone to take a leap of faith and pursue love for a while. Really pursue it try to understand it from all possible angles. Let love take over. Should we all not try this at least once in our lives?

If you can understand the madness of my claim. God is love and if you pursue love you will find love. Meaning if you pursue love you will find God. This is not my promise alone, this is Jesus promise to you as well. Believe what you want, but Jesus Christ and I are promising you, if you pursue love you find God. There is one catch, you must get everything out of your life that causes you to stumble. You are strong enough to overcome yourself, just believe in yourself and the love that is inside you.