Texas town spends $60 million on new HS Football Stadium...

Originally posted by acmpnsfal
www.wbur.org/2010/11/13/texas-stadium Read that article I cant link off my cell. The article in the OP is missing some information, when the voters decided to approve spending money on the school they did not just focus on football. The total amount the school receieved was 120 million. 60 went to the stadium, the other 60 went towards building a new fine arts facility and a career tech center. They improved things for a lot of students not just the football players.

 

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Yea, in the article I posted it mentions a $119 million grant, but it didnt say where the other $59 million wa going or if it was even being used... If $60 million was spent on the students for a tech center I do feel a little better, but I still feel that $60 million on a stadium is a waste of money...

Originally posted by Juggernog

Originally posted by azbowhunter
High School Football in Texas is more important than Jesus, and they LOVE Jesus.

Not all of us. I havent been to a HS Football game since I was in Middle School and I only went there to socialize lol.

Lots of folks don't love Jesus either. They just go to church to socialize.

Yes, I know the money could go into other projects, but what seems to be the major alternative here is education.

A number of people seem to be claiming that putting more money into education will produce better educational results. This baffles me. I have never seen evidence that this is the case. Consider the billions that the feds put into education. Our scores haven't gone up. Countries spending less on education do better in international rankings.

Please show me that more money will improve education and I might consider the argument.

Originally posted by charles1952
Yes, I know the money could go into other projects, but what seems to be the major alternative here is education.

A number of people seem to be claiming that putting more money into education will produce better educational results. This baffles me. I have never seen evidence that this is the case. Consider the billions that the feds put into education. Our scores haven't gone up. Countries spending less on education do better in international rankings.

Please show me that more money will improve education and I might consider the argument.

Do you honestly believe that there isnt a difference between a poorly funded school and a well-funded school?? I grew up in Naperville, IL which is a very rich suburb of Chicago. The schools I went to were well funded and because of that the graduation rates were tops in the country, test score averages ranked with the best in the country, and the majority of the graduating students went on to a 4-year university... Now look at the inner city schools here in Chicago, where they're poorly funded and you will see a total drop off, graduation rates at record lows, testing scores are so low they cant qualify for the necessary funding, etc... The money improves education because it can bring in better educators, it can give teachers better resources to teach their students, and it can create a better learning atmosphere for everyone around...

Originally posted by charles1952
Yes, I know the money could go into other projects, but what seems to be the major alternative here is education.

A number of people seem to be claiming that putting more money into education will produce better educational results. This baffles me. I have never seen evidence that this is the case. Consider the billions that the feds put into education. Our scores haven't gone up. Countries spending less on education do better in international rankings.

Please show me that more money will improve education and I might consider the argument.

You know the telling thing about this?

The people claiming that more money begets better education will never be the ones spending a couple hours collecting and vetting links and material to support those positions. Why? ....it isn't supported. Just as you say here. I'd say until we see well funded schools clearly graduating at higher rates than average schools...and enough to show a cause/effect, not local circumstances to a district, it's as empty as so many other claims.

We spend among the most in the world on Education...yet every subjective scoring system to rank nations and outcome show the U.S. FAR below #1 and dropping....steadily. Go figure and I agree. Money is NOT the answer. Not by itself. Of course, as the thread shows..Money can sure be WASTED while districts still have major internal problems

Originally from Allen here. Go Allen Eagles

Yeah, football is truly huge in Texas. Even high school football. Most people I know in the area are not exactly crazy about the amount spent on the new stadium.

Personally, I think that money could have gone to new books, computers....Raises for teachers....

Most I have talked to around here are either against spending that kind of money on a new stadium....

But, there are always those around here that think we should get that state title, no matter what it takes.

Allen has a state of the art football team...A new stadium was needed and has been for years as there simply has not been enough room for seating....But 60 million is overkill if you ask me.

reply to post by jhn7537

Dear jhn7537,

Thanks, a very solid post. Mind if I take it in pieces?

Do you honestly believe that there isnt a difference between a poorly funded school and a well-funded school??

Your absolutely right, there is a difference. Some poorly funded schools are at the top of whatever measure of success you use, and some are at the bottom. And yes, relatively current text books are very nearly an absolute necessity.

I grew up in Naperville, IL which is a very rich suburb of Chicago. The schools I went to were well funded and because of that the graduation rates were tops in the country, test score averages ranked with the best in the country, and the majority of the graduating students went on to a 4-year university...

My problem here is the "because of that" idea. My post was asking for some evidence that that was the case. There are other possible causes. Were the parents in Naperville convinced that an education was necessary? Was the neighborhood and home conducive to study and learning? There are many more possibilities.

Now look at the inner city schools here in Chicago, where they're poorly funded and you will see a total drop off, graduation rates at record lows, testing scores are so low they cant qualify for the necessary funding, etc...

Consider my comments about Naperville. I don't live in inner city Chicago, so I only hear rumors, but I would wonder if going to school that day was safe or if I was walking into a turf war. I would be concerned about food, drugs, and finding physical protection in some form or another before worries about school. A school where the other students might taunt me or worse, if I studied hard.

The money improves education because it can bring in better educators, it can give teachers better resources to teach their students, and it can create a better learning atmosphere for everyone around...

It doesn't necessarily bring in better educators, it brings in more expensive educators. How do we know who the better educators are? The unions resist any attempt to grade their members based on the kid's performance. Better resources and atmosphere? I'm sorry, first those are awfully vague concepts, and secondly, can someone show me that the students do significantly better because of them?

Again, I may be wrong, but it seems that pumping billions into education has not produced any noticible improvements in our children's education. But I'm willing to be converted.

With respect,
Charles1952

$60 million is a hell of a lot to spend on a stadium, but its not like it will only be used for football. Stadiums like this can also be used for soccer games and marching band competitions. They can even play host to professional level sporting events (like some of the stadiums near my house). If they're brave enough to face the heat, they can also host graduation ceremonies The rooms inside the stadium can be used for all sorts of things like banquets, meetings, and even testing events like the SATs or ACTs. When used correctly, the return on this one stadium could be immense.

Idiots!! Stupid is as stupid does. Intelllligence does NOT win again!!!

Originally posted by riddle6
$60 million is a hell of a lot to spend on a stadium, but its not like it will only be used for football. Stadiums like this can also be used for soccer games and marching band competitions. They can even play host to professional level sporting events (like some of the stadiums near my house). If they're brave enough to face the heat, they can also host graduation ceremonies The rooms inside the stadium can be used for all sorts of things like banquets, meetings, and even testing events like the SATs or ACTs. When used correctly, the return on this one stadium could be immense.

The striking thing here......Only one use you have mentioned in the whole list actually has a thing to do with teaching kids academics. the SAT/ACT testing.

60 million for a test center? lol.. I know it's not just that, but this isn't even College level. This is high school. Reading, Writing and Arithmetic.

I say they leave the corruption of money and fame seeking that Pro-Sports has become to the College level and above.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I really don't agree with spending $60 million on a HS football stadium, but its not like it will only be used for a few months out of the year. If the school district knows what they're doing, they can easily use this to improve the education level of their students.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Are you actually saying team sports do not educate our youth? What about learning cooperation, trust, following directions, adhering to rules, personal responsibility, accountability, commitment, perseverance, sharing, not quitting, how to lose graciously, how to be a good sport, confidence, how to deal with conflict, listening skills???

Shall i go on? i happen to believe team sports teaches real life skills more valuable than what you can learn in a book. How many people actually use geometry in their careers? How many people use the above tools in their life?

Perhaps if the city of Chicago could clean up their mob politics, they could bring in creative instructors and coaches to show their youth the importance of team sports. Then their youth would not be gang banging and warring in the streets. They may see the value of self respect for the first time in their life.


Knock it all you want, but Texas seems to be doing something right!

Texas is forecast to have the third-highest gross domestic product growth of all the states this year, behind North Dakota and Oklahoma, and was expected to regain the jobs it lost from its pre-recession peak in the first quarter this year. Only Alaska and North Dakota could make similar job-growth claims, the economic intelligence firm said.

Seguin Area Texas News

Until the entire education system is revamped in this country, we do not need to spend another dime on education.


Pax

The policy core of Texas education seems to be football and God in that order.... I guess they are racing California to the bottom!

schools are for education not games... Rabbit is right... this should not be a priority for a public school...

This is exactly the kind of stuff the federal government does that conservatives complain about..... I guess even conservatives have their "bridge to nowhere"

why should the tax base be the made to pay for this?

schools should not be building infrastructures that depend on them to be used as concert halls or mass meetings.....

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

Dear Wrabbit2000,

I'd like to ask a couple of philosophical questions. Not a criticism, but I don't have the answer and you seem to have, at least, firm opinions.

How do we draw the line between how much is spent for classrooms as opposed to extra-curricular activities? Is there a per centage? A dollar amount? How do we figure the right amount?

Secondly, where do we, as a nation, begin to feel it's appropriate to tell a state or a school district how to spend their money?

Again, I'm not trying to start a fight, I have too much respect for you, but I don't have a clear answer and would like some help.

With respect,
Charles1952

nothing to do for outdoor activity except go to the lake.

How times have changed. When I was a kid, all that had to happen was to let us go outside. We found something to do.

Even the 3000 population town out here built a new stadium 10 years ago. Nice, but not multi million. Seems football is important to those in charge of schools.

reply to post by jhn7537


You obviously know nothing about football here in Texas. It is big money. That $60 million....it will pay for itself so many times over it is ridiculous.

I am from the land of Odessa Permian Panthers (I actually am a Midland Lee Rebel fan....but that is my guilty indulgence). The Friday Night Lights are important to our culture. I played my 3 years of varsity ball under the lights, and the memories are among the best I have. I grew to be a focused, disciplined, tenacious, hardworking man because of my time playing high school and college football. If it weren't for that, I likely would have never finished high school (despite graduating with honors). I cannot stress enough how important it was in teaching me discipline.

This is the stadium MIdland Lee Rebels play in:

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I think most people really don't understand how big football (especially high school football) is here. Its one of those things that you have to see first hand to get a true grip of. My school didn't have a very good football team (we won a grand total of 2 games my first 2 years ), but it still took over the school. Our basketball team always made the playoffs, but no one really ever made a fuss about them. It was always about the football team. I was in the marching band, and we even got some of the benefit. We were really good, but it was still weird to see the football parents actually pay attention to us because we were a part of the experience.

I guess if anyone was interested enough to see how its like, they can just watch the movie "Friday Night Lights." The show by the same name does a really good job as well. This stadium will be used, and it will be used a lot. It will easily make back what it cost in construction. Voters even ok'd the money to build this (and other facilities), so its not like the district took a bunch of money and did this without running it by anyone first. This stadium will also be used for at least 15-20 years. Books and computers are lucky if they last a quarter that. Educational items should be updated and of the best quality, but let's be reasonable here. What kid will actually take care of a book or a computer? If the district is looking to spend money like this, then they'd be better off spending it on something that will last for many years and that everyone can use.

reply to post by paxnatus

I really went to digging because I see your posts and value them to read. So I wanted to be sure... Turns out Allen is a really good district in most ways. 1,700 and some on reduced meals out of 19,000.. State scores all mid to high 90's.. Nice there... Aside from my sheer principles on schools keeping sports and the lesson it demonstrates in perspective to the academics the school is built for.. I was thinking there wasn't too much to find after all.

Then I found what would have been the single and sole point for me, on the whole debate, from the word go...if I'd gone reading their own district financials before I replied the first time. I'll keep it direct because there was no joy in finding this and maybe making some point. This truth doesn't leave anyone better off and, in time, it'll ruin the kids of that district.

First, perspective of the cost of this damn Stadium in construction costs and dollars as it was used elsewhere by this same District.

1. Construction of Elementary Schools #16 and #17. . . . . . . . . $42.4 million
4. Renovations/Upgrades to Existing School Facilities. . . . . . . . $76.6 million
5. Campus Security Upgrades . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $1.3 million
7. HVAC Renovations / Roof Replacements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . $15.9 million

(Page 91 t.45)

Now all that sounds perfectly reasonable and even decent for issuing bond debt to accomplish The table which that and the next items come from is the 08/09 issuance of debt in future planning for the district. It's the next part...they went wild on.

1. Performing Arts Center $23.3 million
2. District Transportation / Student Nutrition Service Center $36.5 million
3. Multipurpose Stadium $59.6 million

(same source as above)

They also answer in the same section for the district budget, why it matters on first glance..

The state funding formula provides for two types of debt service support – the Instructional Facility Allotment (IFA) and the Existing Debt Allotment (EDA). These allotments are both weighted to take into consideration the property wealth per student of the receiving districts.

The Legislature’s practice of rolling forward new debt into EDA ensures that Allen’s debt is equalized to the highest levels. However,the District’s property wealth per student exceeds the maximum allowed for the EDA Program. As such, the District will not receive any EDA funding in 2011/12.

(and how much that ratio actually is)

The total outstanding debt (principal only) is $24,144 per student. The total amount of debt per student based on 2011/12 principal and interest is approximately $1,903.

Allen District 2011/2012 Official Budget

Last but worst in this case...is what the upstanding adults running the District call acceptable and proper. This kind of thinking is why our whole nation and many states are on the ragged edge of collapse. It really is...



It's a bit big. It comes from their budget, and shows entering 2012 with over 35 Million in debt. It shows a gradual payoff of debt (always assuming they'll never borrow more..and all stays rosy to their projections of steadily increasing revenue) and that payoff doesn't come below 5 million until the 2040/41 school year.

Now none of this is the least bit fair as debate points in reply. You couldn't possibly have known any of this...and I learned while making the reply. I sure didn't see news stories mention a peep of this side to it.

Let's just keep sports in perspective, not eliminate anything, is my point. Everyone (in general terms) seems to be 100% one side or the other these days on almost every topic. Well, this stadium IS 100% to the absurd....but simply having a stadium for the whole district, at the High School would't have been insane.

I'd just love to hear how they justify this cost. 42 Million was the budgeted cost of 2 Elementary Schools and another page goes into how they'll be quite high tech and fancy too. All kind of green tech....which breaks down to 21 Million per. Well, the real cost budgeted to the Stadium in their Budget is a bit over 22 Million. (The rest went to support, infrastructure and misc relating to it) Interesting eh?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Hi Wrabbit, thank you for the kind words, and my hat is off to anyone that does research like you have done.
This changes my opinion believe it or not...The adults that voted for this stadium need to practice some restraint
and demonstrate some fiscal responsibility. shame on each of them for laying this kind of monetary worry on the heads of the kids. On this point I could not agree with you more.

I only took issue with what you were saying regarding kids could not learn a thing from playing sports. I think I communicated my point on that.

Thank you for providing facts that bring more meat to this discussion. Always a pleasure to read what you have to say, even when we may not see eye to eye on every issue. You bring value and intelligence to the ATS
community.

reply to post by jhn7537


I just wanna let you know that these multi-million dollar stadiums are put to use for MULTIPLE purposes that help the community gather and support, play, or come and admire.

Also, if you have never seen ALLEN HIGH SCHOOL play some football, sorry sir ..You do not know Football.

SOUTHERN FOOTBALL!! Nothing else like it.

We might be big and dumb...At least we aren't ignorant.

This is all regarding to your so clever remark about Texans being dumb. We don't need people like you. We scare y'alls ignorant a**es away for a reason.



#Come with Love, peace, and family.