American workers lack the flexibility, diligence and technical skills of foreign workers, says China

reply to post by burdman30ott6


I might agree but corporations have no soul and they just go bankrupt after using up and destroying people and the environment....

we once had no regulations for industries ..... and we are still 60 years later cleaning up the mess.....

what about the banks? Do you think they need less regulation too?

reply to post by deessell


Foreign workers=slave wages,substandard housing
and cookie cutter higher education.
American workers=Living wages,benefits,better housing and
very expensive higher education.
It is more profitable to pay pennies for foreign labor then to pay
an american worker a decent living wage.America has many
skilled workers,they are not profitable enough for companies to
hire.You can get 3 trained,skilled laborers for every 1 american....
My personal opinion.

Originally posted by fnpmitchreturns
we once had no regulations for industries ..... and we are still 60 years later cleaning up the mess.....

Yet the 1950s were easily the single largest growth period for middle class America. Jobs were plentiful, manufacturing in the USA was booming, and families were living the American Dream with traditional, single income structures. Many of the "messes" you say we are still cleaning up were politically created non-threats which had to be sensationalized to permit the crushing regulations to be passed in the first place.

i do agree that many americans may lack the skills. but it's only because there has been in the past a lack of jobs that required these skills.and the reason that is, comes from the fact that starting in the 80's maybe even before, there has been a push for a global economy, sparking free trade, wto. nafta gats and any of the other alphabet acronyms for international trade.which in turn opened the doors for manufacturers to pack up shop and move to nations that paid only pennies on the dollar that their counter parts in the U.S. received.

and that stemmed from the unions, yes that's right the unions. the greed that was passed down from the top of them on down. the leaders of the unions are crooks shaking down mfg's so they can say to members, look here what we've done for you. now pay your due's which we have raised in order to fund our attacks on the mfg's and line our pockets. let me qualify that statement. there maybe jobs that justify paying someone $30 or more a hour plus benefits. but for someone standing on a production line, doing one thing for eight hours a day that requires only one ability with no technical skill , that is ridiculous. now maybe if said person could do many different jobs on that line they might be worth it. there was a time unions did good for employees, by helping to keep the mfg's from taking advantage of their employee's, but just like every other thing that humans do greed and power got in the way.

the next thing the unions have done, and this is my opinion, is they made people lazy. what i mean by this is, when they think that all they are supposed to do is stand there and and run that one machine. even if there is nothing for them to run, they refuse to do something else.like do another part of the production or maybe even sweep up. i tell you if someone was paying me $30 plus a hour, and told me to sweep up. you bet i would start pushing a broom. it sure beats going home and not earning anything. this may be why they say americans are not flexible, and lack diligence. i bet ya the the chinese worker doesn't bat a eye, when someone says sweep up.and not just because they might get their ass handed to them if they don't. it's because they are grateful to have a J O B.

well that's enough of my views. there is a lot more that can be said about this and people could go back and forth forever on this subject.i just don't blame unions and lazy employees, the mfg's have had a hand in this also. and this is a whole other can of worms.

now for what imho can be done to stop it.
there is evidence that the american people and i would say the world are tired of cheap non lasting goods, from china or any where in the world. and that mfg's are returning to the U.S.. just like in the 70's when the american automobile mfg's were making cheap cars that would just barely make it until the warranty was up, people are looking for better quality. that is something that is lacking in many places like china. so then the mfg's started making a better product. same thing is happening now, people want better quality, mfg's see this and have starting to return to where they know they can get this. even the chinese people prefer goods made in america. but there needs to be something done to sustain this.

here are two or maybe three of my thoughts on this.

first and foremost there needs to better government practices, we need to run off all the congressmen who cow tale to special interest groups, mfg's unions, or any body that's gonna help them make a few thousand or more extra bucks. that means term limits, no more of those who plan on going to washington and staying for fifty years. they have to go. our form of government is not meant to be that way. for the people by the people. that means that there should always be fresh face there. that way there is no way for one person to get into a cozy relationship with the above said groups. and this should apply even to the bureaucrats and there underlings. a job evaluation system should be set in place, and if they are not up to par boot em. that should apply to every alphabet agency, nsa cia irs fbi ssa you name it it should apply. then you have to realize that the U.S. government has so many regulations that need to be addressed and changed.

second we should tell the u.n. to get out and take all that global trade crap with them. no wto, nafta gtas or what have you. that's why we're in the mess we are in. there should be a fair import tax on all goods brought into the country, weather it be from american owned or foreign mfg's. especially american owned if you want to sell it here and reap the benefits of sales here then make it here. foreign companies can benefit by making it here to but they would need to meet same standards as mfg's and only trade in our dollars here. the import taxes could be spread across the board and fund many different thing here. and if other nations want impose a import tax let them so long as it's fair.

i also want to talk no income tax and a no loop holes sales tax, but i don't have room.

Originally posted by Wildbob77
I think that what they meant to say is American workers are not willing to work like slaves for peanuts and then extol the praises of their wonderful employers.

Just my opinion.

your opinion is valid, the death rate and suicide rate among chinese workers are the highest in the world. they only employ workers of a certain age. the working conditions are that of a totalitarian dictatorship....if anyone thinks this is somehow comparitive to the US workforce, there is something wrong with their thinking.
china is truly a country of slave labor, only the very top elite men of science, or those with political connections have a good life.

Personally i think we should create a public university/college system like what already exists for elementary, middle and high school, and also make it so if foreign students wish to attend college here they should pay for it by themselves WITHOUT loans by our government, if they want a loan they should look to their own government to pay it to ours for their attendance.

China could be right on that assumtion. Could it be that a skilled tradesman watch their wages decrease by nearly half in the last (8) years? Could it be because we no longer have the unions and apprenticeship programs we used to have?
No offense, but it seems this generation is already programmed for the service sector, or clerical duties. It is very hard to find a young person that wants to learn a trade-especially when they find that for the most part there are no benefits. I think the US went wrong when secondary educated people replaced the primary educated who had been performing their duties most of their lives. In my (27) years in the workforce, I have seen this happen time and time again.You can not use someone with no manufacturing experience to run a plant, or production.
In the early seventies, we became overregulated by the EPA, OSHA, etc. In that time frame we also saw the loss of Unions. Generations of millwrights,machinists,plumbers,welders to mention a few lost their jobs, and their safety net.
I remember as a younger person watching my town die. Literally overnight-our shipyard,our steel mill, our automobile plant, and all of the businesses that supported them were gone.

So, for argument's sake, we sent everything overseas, and allow these products to be produced by means that were not acceptable here.

Manufacturing will not return here until the regulations are relaxed to a point that a company can make money and be solvent. As far as wages, they need to be competitive with the economy. If the formula for this can be achieved, we may have a chance.

Finally, It is mindboggling that something can be produced overseas by people who either have full benefits,or are virtually slaves,shipped overseas to us, and sold cheaper than we can do it here.
To be clear, I am not a member of a union; I am neutral where that is concerned for personal reasons.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by deessell

 

The problem is not skill! It is that now in America if you don't havve a million dollar education they assume wrogly that you can't or don't have the ability. My grandfather was a machinist, not just a machinist a very good machinist, he built parts for the laser reflector put on the moon by the appollo astronauts. He never attended any secondary schooling. My father, same story no school after high school, excellent tech math and machining skills just by nature, now retired. Machinist, electrician,mechanic, hvac tech.... I can't afford to go to school, and wait 5 years for a degree I don't need for skills I already have. It is a lack of confidence in anything but a piece of paper that can admittedly be bought not earned. So what gives? They can't honestly say that people in America 80 years ago were more capable with no education, than people today with a highschool eductaion. It is a lack of belief in Americans, the is faulsely held by the elites, that unless you can afford to pay"the price" you aren't smart or skilled enough for any of the good jobs.

You are incorrect. I am a CFO. I have no college education. I am 40 year old, and worked my ass off to do two things with my life:

1. Raise my kids
2. Build a rock solid resume

And, as a hiring official for a long time, I can say that US workers are underskilled, unflexible, and entitled. I ran a 400 seat call center once. We had to close our doors because we couldn't staff 400 people who could type 20 words a minute. No one wants to work evenings because they have kids (and child care is not very profitable for the effort you put in). And your average 25 year old wants to make what I make.

Originally posted by namehere
Personally i think we should create a public university/college system like what already exists for elementary, middle and high school, and also make it so if foreign students wish to attend college here they should pay for it by themselves WITHOUT loans by our government, if they want a loan they should look to their own government to pay it to ours for their attendance.

I think we should begin aptitude testing from the beginning. I think that the testing should identify your strengths, and your education should be tailored to match. When you graduate high school, if you choose to follow on to college in your field of aptitude, your college is paid for. If you choose to go into a different field, you pay for your own college.

This would allow the US to put their "aces in their places".

But, Charlotte Iserbyte will tell you from her time at the US Dept of Education: making our students smarter and more capable is not the goal of public education.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Or you meant to say, you owned a business payed crap sp you got crap employees, and now you act like it is all Americans that suck? How about recognizing that, when you pay a person barely enough to survive they will only work barely enough to keep the # job. I am more than willing to bet you think that mcdolnalds deserves absolute loyaly for minimum wage also right?

The problem isn't workers it isbusiness owners expecting more out of their workers than they personally are willing to do for the same price. If you think that paying someone the minimum allowed by law is doing them a favor your dumb. If you aren't yourself willing to slave for a minimum wage employer your a hypocrite.

I am sure you won't even consider working a place that pays what your # talking "americans" for not wanting to do themselves. If a man can't even live off your wage you are the problem not part of the solution

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Or you meant to say, you owned a business payed crap sp you got crap employees, and now you act like it is all Americans that suck? How about recognizing that, when you pay a person barely enough to survive they will only work barely enough to keep the # job. I am more than willing to bet you think that mcdolnalds deserves absolute loyaly for minimum wage also right?

The problem isn't workers it isbusiness owners expecting more out of their workers than they personally are willing to do for the same price. If you think that paying someone the minimum allowed by law is doing them a favor your dumb. If you aren't yourself willing to slave for a minimum wage employer your a hypocrite.

I am sure you won't even consider working a place that pays what your # talking "americans" for not wanting to do themselves. If a man can't even live off your wage you are the problem not part of the solution

So....why am I posting? YOu seem to have fictionalized your own narrative.

BTW, my call center was the highest paying job in my tow short of getting a degree, or working on an oil rig. Some of our agents made up to $17/hr. That is more than a nurse makes.

I haven't seen a place pay minimum wage in about 10 years. I never even mentioned minimum wage.

Don't bother replying. I am not the person you are imagining in your fictional narrative.

ETA: I think you may have missed that the "workers" i was getting were high school graduates who couldn't even type 20 words per minute. How do you graduate someone and not teach them to type 20 words per minute? I used to have a guy with no arms that worked in my call center up in Wyoming No arms, and he could still type more than 20 words per minute. I was expected to hire high school graduates without disabilities that failed to perform to standards set, with me, by a man who didn't even have arms to hold the hands that carried the fingers to type with.

Or perhaps american companies have exploited chinese workers to the point that they are now becoming savy to the exploitation and are demanding more wages and better working conditions. Now that american manufacturing has been decemated by these capitalist scoundrels, they will return and offer the american worker peanuts in wages, which he/she will now gladly accept. Do away with the top echalon and build companies from the bottom up, let the workers run the company.

The American workers mantra....."Pretend to pay me and I'll pretend to work."

Wages haven't even come close to keeping up with the cost of living as it now stands.

My business tanked because I couldn't afford the gas it took to deliver to market my products. Plus my raw material cost skyrocked which also kicked the profit out of my product as well; at the same time when my would be customers were feeling the economic pinch. I couldn't raise my prices to cover the cost of manufacturing.

It wasn't governmental regulations or unions that killed my business; it was the greedy oil companies that got subsidies, paid for by my taxes, even though they were reaping record profits.

Thanks God I managed to acquire some skills and get union representation SAG/AFTRA/IATSE so I can still make a living even in my advancing years.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Well I retract my previous statement about your wages. As I have only your word to go by, I have no other choice but to believe your words, or discount them. I choose to think of people in a good light if possible, so unless other evidence is present I have only the two options. So I believe you.

However it is my experience that call centers don't pay well, even .gov call centers. For example, my sister in law works for the TSA at LockheedMartin in camby indiana. She only makes 15 dollars an hour and lower end mediocre benefits after 7 years. So either you have the highest paid call center I have heard of or your being disengenuous.

Also I have never in my life seen a person that was unable to type 20 words per minute. You were obviously quoting the high end of the scale not the actual scale at 17, why i wander didn't you say anything about yourstarting wage or the average? Could it be that both would have not helped your point?

When I say "minimum wage" I don't mean right at 7 whatever, I mean anything close to it. As in 1 dollar a hour only means 40 dollars a week, so evven at 10 your only making 100 dollars a week more than mcdonalds, which still leaves you with nothing.

If as an employer you want to have employees that are commited to your business you as an employer must also be committed to providing living wages to your workers. It is a commitment both ways, if as an employer you offer low wages, no benefits, and than complain about anything your being silly.

Iff as an employee you work for a business that pays well, has decent benefits, and you don't. Want to do your job, your just not very intelligent at all.

Also I never said this is MY narative, this is no narative, this is life. I. Won't work for a low wage employer that has no benefits, I won't even get out of bed in the morning for mcdonalds pay. I will be paid well and treated well on the benfits side or I will not work for you!

Others don't have the ability to decide, they have to take whatevver work comes along. I am just tired of seeing people be trampled and worked half to death for next to nothing, while their company reapes stacks of money.

If your profits excede your payroll, your not being very fair at all to the workers whose backs are carrying your company. As it is they that WORK everyday so that the company can exist at all.

Let's just talk plainly here, no company exec can ever do it alone, they need workers to build move stock etc. All of those down the line made all the products, moved all the products, stocked all the products, so what did the exec do while that was going on? He played on his computer, handled a couple calls that litteraly anyone could have handled, and stood around the water cooler talking. He does nothing for the company most of his day, yet makes in a week what the workers making and moving and stocking make a year.

The whole system is broken, and if those that won't pay anything want to continue the cycle let them, we few who do pay well and provide for our help will continue to thrive and prosper putting all the greedy penny pinchers out of business, as our productivity is high, because our workers take a personal stake in making the company great as it is paying them fairly, and rewarding their labor with bonuses, and raises as the company does more business. Those that dnt, continue the slide as they can't find" qualified " people.

What is really meant by a company that can't find enough quailified people is " we can't find anyone with a degree that costs tens of thousands of dollars dumb enough to do this job for the low ball figure we are trying to peddle it at."

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Well I retract my previous statement about your wages. As I have only your word to go by, I have no other choice but to believe your words, or discount them. I choose to think of people in a good light if possible, so unless other evidence is present I have only the two options. So I believe you.

It doesn't matter if you believe me. I didn't set the wage base, the corporation did. I just executed the budget, executed the policies, and rewarded as much as I could to the people who achieved the most for the company. Just like it was supposed to be: fair and consistent.

However it is my experience that call centers don't pay well, even .gov call centers. .

Let me describe a couple of different business models I worked with that would actually dispute your own anecdotes:

- when i first started in call centers, as an agent, i worked for a company that outsourced for AOL. We were motivated to perform by our company via a revenue share. AOL paid them $5/call (absolutely unheard of billing model, and a gravy train that you wouldn't believe). This was back in 2000. The rev share was worth $1.25, if you hit quality goals. If you did the upsell at the end of the call it was worth an average of 25 cents. I was a master at this, and averaged about 18/hr my first month out of training.

- I had second tier spanish support that were started at 14/hr, with a 50 cent raise after 90 days, 25 cents annually after that. 9 years later, when my site closed, I had 33 employees left from the first round of hires taking calls.

Also I have never in my life seen a person that was unable to type 20 words per minute.

Come to my town. I'll show you about 5-8 thousand of them. Starting wages varied throughout my call center career. But an average was usually set about 25 cents an hour over the local market for other comparable jobs. In todays terms, maybe 9 an hour for less skilled, 12 or a little more for more skilled (bilingual, or highly trained).

When I say "minimum wage" I don't mean right at 7 whatever, I mean anything close to it. As in 1 dollar a hour only means 40 dollars a week, so evven at 10 your only making 100 dollars a week more than mcdonalds, which still leaves you with nothing.

My local McDonalds has 14/hr posted on their billboard.

reply to post by inverslyproportional

If as an employer you want to have employees that are commited to your business you as an employer must also be committed to providing living wages to your workers. It is a commitment both ways, if as an employer you offer low wages, no benefits, and than complain about anything your being silly.

Pay scales are market driven. You obviously know nothing about how business works. You think that you just bend over and pull a number out of your butt, divide it by two (to make sure you screw the scrubs as bad as you can), then use that to set payrate? It is market driven, then supported by business model.

Have you ever worked in a place that set their wages too high and they weren't sustainable? Everyone gets let go, the remaining staff end up overworked, then it business closes.

have you ever sat through a budget meeting? Have you ever had to plan who gets to take more money home than someone else? Yes, it sucks sometimes. But you can't just say 'screw it, pay them more and let the business go under!"

I work small business now. In the past i worked in corporate business. I disagree with corporate business, and use only some of the reporting, data management, and financial elements in our smaller business now. At the end of the day, when you break out percentage, your employee wages (using what you call "starvation wages") account for half of your revenue. Half of what you make goes to wages/compensation.

Do you know how much I pay in taxes every pay period? Look at your taxes, and that is what you employer pays as well. PLUS the unemployment (both federal and state) costs, which are fairly expensive.

I don't make these numbers up. They are an everyday reality for me. Half of what my company earns is paid in wages. Just think about that for a minute before you keep ranting about how underpayed unskilled labor is. And, when all bills are paid, your average restaurant owner will see about 10% gross profit margin. That means for a $1mil/year restaurant, he will make $100k.

Have you ever tried to do the math? If you want a lesson, U2U me....i will bore the hell out of you.

Iff as an employee you work for a business that pays well, has decent benefits, and you don't. Want to do your job, your just not very intelligent at all.

Pay/benefits may matter. But at the end of the day, it only matters a little. What matters most is to feel valued, to feel like you are growing and contributing. If you don't feel rewarded with that, you will not enjoy working any job (other than maybe a mattress tester or something).

Only the most material do it for the money.

Won't work for a low wage employer that has no benefits, I won't even get out of bed in the morning for mcdonalds pay. I will be paid well and treated well on the benfits side or I will not work for you!

This is why Chinese workers are better than American ones, i guess. I know I would get out of bed for McDonalds pay if i needed to pay the bills.

I'm tired of typing to you. So I am going to stop here. I think that you will likely shrug off whatever I have said anyway, and will leave you to either figure the world out on your own, or not. Doesn't matter to me.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

 

Or you meant to say, you owned a business payed crap sp you got crap employees, and now you act like it is all Americans that suck? How about recognizing that, when you pay a person barely enough to survive they will only work barely enough to keep the # job. I am more than willing to bet you think that mcdolnalds deserves absolute loyaly for minimum wage also right?

The problem isn't workers it isbusiness owners expecting more out of their workers than they personally are willing to do for the same price. If you think that paying someone the minimum allowed by law is doing them a favor your dumb. If you aren't yourself willing to slave for a minimum wage employer your a hypocrite.

I am sure you won't even consider working a place that pays what your # talking "americans" for not wanting to do themselves. If a man can't even live off your wage you are the problem not part of the solution

So....why am I posting? YOu seem to have fictionalized your own narrative.

BTW, my call center was the highest paying job in my tow short of getting a degree, or working on an oil rig. Some of our agents made up to $17/hr. That is more than a nurse makes.

I haven't seen a place pay minimum wage in about 10 years. I never even mentioned minimum wage.

Don't bother replying. I am not the person you are imagining in your fictional narrative.

ETA: I think you may have missed that the "workers" i was getting were high school graduates who couldn't even type 20 words per minute. How do you graduate someone and not teach them to type 20 words per minute? I used to have a guy with no arms that worked in my call center up in Wyoming No arms, and he could still type more than 20 words per minute. I was expected to hire high school graduates without disabilities that failed to perform to standards set, with me, by a man who didn't even have arms to hold the hands that carried the fingers to type with.

edit on 6-8-2012 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)

I honestly want to believe you, but 20wpm is pretty normal. There are droves of people who can do that, and those that can't would definately be willing to sit down and type until they are proficient enough. There is something wrong with you and/or your company if you're not able find employees with such 'low' requirements, actually I'm almost positive that's the case. Maybe it's you, the employer who feels too entitled, and expect too much, while giving too little, and those with the capability overlook your job offer could be for the above reason.

You mentioned that you have some employees who make $17/hr (key word: some). I'm gonna take a stab in the dark here and guess the job you were offering paid out on comission (or commission added onto a base wage/salary); what was the actual base wage you were offering? People who look for jobs, do not want to hear about 'potential' income, they want to hear 'actual' income that they will make.

p.s. I used to be a territory manager for a large computer company, I did a lot of hiring, the only reason why I wouldn't be able to get a qualified person to fill a position was because I and/or my company was being too picky (but we always eventually managed to find a good fit in a very reasonable amount of time).

reply to post by acidsweep


Have you ever been to West Texas?

I am amazed you are amazed at the sub 20 wpm.

Ive never been to west texas (besides driving through it during a cross country trip), im from san jose california. So yes, its a suprise to me.

reply to post by acidsweep



I am no longer in call centers (as i mentioned) so don't interview for the same skills as i used to. It still amazes me how few people in this part of the world even own a computer. One guy was telling me that he doesn't mind payingmore money for a Trac Fone service because it keeps him from using his cell phone at all. Backwards thinking.

We used to, in the call center world, do a minimum skills test. Things like saving a file to a specific folder, navigating to a web page, or sending an email using a mock email client that was designed to be painfully obvious. About 35-40% failure rate among applicants.

A large section of our applicants live very, very simple lives. They may be only 1 or 2 generations in this country, and not have really solid English skills. VERY frequently in the call centers, our employees would be the wives of oil field labor that was brought in from Mexico in those Worker Visa programs. We often have labor shortfalls during oil booms, and get a transient type population build up around it. The spouses of those workers came to work in the call center usually, since it was good pay indoors without a lot of physical work (we treated them like professionals, and they liked it).

That isn't the entirety, though. There were no shortage of mendicant 18 year olds that could only have received a diploma by being forced through the system. Most of them were thugs, or the girl friends of thugs.


Fast food places around here are generally only staffed with people who can't pass a drug test, or who have wore out their welcome everywhere else in town. Going out to eat in West Texas right now is a miserable experience. There is no staff available

ETA: i would encourage people to move here for work if they are unemployed....but there are also no houses available. The oil field is "importing" employees with families of several children, then putting them up in RV's as their "home". Tents are used, too. People want to come work, but just have nowhere to live. All hotel rooms are sold out everyday of the week in Midland/Odessa (a nearby town). Rooms that would normally sell for 120 a night are going for 250. Look on Kayak.com and try to find a room at a price you would pay in Midland or Odessa TX. A new Fairfield Inn opened last month, they sold all their rooms for the first 3 months before they even opened the doors for business.