Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Originally posted by adjensen


Well, I've never heard anyone say that Jesus was the Father (and that makes zero sense, so I'm not surprised,) but Jesus as creator, that's nothing new.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. (John 1:1-3 NIV)

That's pretty cut and dry, I would say.

John 1:14

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

The only actual reference to the trinity within the bible is in 1 john which reads...

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

and its well known that verse 5:7 was inserted much later.... because its not found in any original documents...

Comma Johanneum

Skorpion is right... the trinity is completely unbiblical... it found its way into christianity some 300 years after the fact...

Are you sure?

Zechariah 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Isaiah 44:6

6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

"and his redeemer the Lord of hosts" = Jesus

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

But these christians follow what appears to be an entirely different theology... that Jesus is the Creator himself.

I think in some cases at least, it comes from a false sort of reverence for Jews, where they imagine somehow that they represent the Israelites of the Old Testament, and they are afraid of offending them by saying God had a son, so they invent an alternative scenario with what they feel is a less offensive version where God temporarily "morphs" into a human, then goes back to His "ordinary" self.

Jesus is the creation of God.
God is not created, God sees and knows his creation.
Christ is the light of consciousness, he is what is seen.
God cannot be seen because God is seeing.

God is the dreamer and Christ is the dream.

reply to post by adjensen

Well, I've never heard anyone say that Jesus was the Father (and that makes zero sense, so I'm not surprised,) but Jesus as creator, that's nothing new.

That idea has been around for a long time in Oneness Pentecostalism, it also is emerging from the "messianic Judaism" movement in an attempt to form a synthesis between the two religions.
It really doesn't work in that it never achieves acceptability with Judaism, and compromises the Christian aspect to the point of uselessness, in my opinion (reducing the majesty of God to nothing but a trickster devil).

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Yahweh is understood by most christians to be God in the Old Testament... i.e - The father.'

Not all, some don't, including myself, seeing how, for one reason, it never says that in the New Testament, rather that the administration of God's plans on earth was done by angels. That would include the angel of Sinai who Moses met in the burning bush who after being asked what his name was, did not give one, but made a rather cryptic remark as to how He can appear as how He chooses, for whatever reason, meaning God can appear through whatever angelic agency that suits Him for that instance, meaning He can make use of a person or angel or whatever, including apparently a talking ass in one story.
In the New Testament, you see various people prophesying in God's name, and then the ultimate representative of God, his son, Jesus, who takes the title Lord (what was translated from YHWH in the Greek version of the OT) through his I Am statements and upon his ascension retains that status of Lord forever.

reply to post by jmdewey60


'I am' is the light of consciousness.
'I' is the eye of God that sees the light.
When there is no light appearing God cannot see or hear any 'thing'.
When there is light appearing God knows 'things'.
God is all seeing and all knowing and everpresent, even when he is in darkness, when there are no 'things' appearing - God is.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Banging on about 'knowledge' gained through reading books will not bring truth.
This moment is the truth, in this moment there is light, the light of being conscious.
Knowing is not knowledge.
Knowing (gnosis) happens presently.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

a) christians know Yahweh to be the God of the Old Testament. (Yes or no?)
b) Yahweh was the one who Jesus called "Father" (Yes or no?)

No, and no.
I never heard of such a thing until recent years except from Jehovah's Witnesses.
I recognize now that there were some sects who historically had an OT orientation, meaning they took seriously the idea of being the "new Israel" so used the OT terminology. I think since the 1960's there has been a push to adopt the term Judeo christian as if they were just different branches of the same religion. I think what is behind that is an attempt to gain support for the illegal occupation of Palestine by the zionist regime calling itself Israel.

'I am' is the truth, the way and the light.
I am is said in present tense, it is the key to unlocking the truth.
Looking to the past is not the way, looking to the future is not the way.
This here and now is the narrow path, it is the only true thing there is - all else is imagination/thought/belief.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

....and that Jesus never said anything about God being a trinity.

The term trinity is not in the Bible but the basis for it is.
Jesus described the Holy Spirit as a person, and he accepted the designation of god for himself.

reply to post by Akragon

The only actual reference to the trinity within the bible is in 1 john which reads...

5:6 Jesus Christ is the one who came by water and blood – not by the water only, but by the water and the blood. And the Spirit is the one who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 5:7 For there are three that testify, 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood, and these three are in agreement.

One explanation for this being in 1 John was as a refutation of Docetism which held that Jesus was just a human receptacle for the Christ spirit which left when the suffering part came,
Here it is the death also, and not just the baptism which testifies as to Jesus being the son of God.

Psalm 110:1

110 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Regarding the New Jerusalem as outlined in Revelation 21:

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Now let's look at Revelation 22:

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

What part of the above verse in Revelation 22 separates God from the Lamb?

After God makes his enemies his footstool, He will make everything NEW, just like He said. That includes living with man in the New Jerusalem. The only way for God to live with man, even in their new heavenly bodies, is through Jesus Christ, the Lamb, who took on the first heavenly body after his resurrection.

reply to post by Deetermined

Are you sure?
Zechariah 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Isaiah 44:6
6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
"and his redeemer the Lord of hosts" = Jesus

The "pierced" word in the Hebrew is one which would describe something like being poked by thorns, and is The Lord talking about how the people treated him in an abrasive sort of way.
Yahweh Sabaoth - Lord of Hosts, in Isaiah, is describing how though Cyrus appears as if he is the one redeeming Israel, it is really Himself who is King and is the one doing the redeeming. Something completely unrelated to how Jesus is our redeemer.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

'I am' is the light of consciousness.
'I' is the eye of God that sees the light.
When there is no light appearing God cannot see or hear any 'thing'.
When there is light appearing God knows 'things'.
God is all seeing and all knowing and everpresent, even when he is in darkness, when there are no 'things' appearing - God is.

I'm sure there are lots of entities doing that sort of menial task and I would not lower God Himself to that level.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Completely agreed. It is really sorry, that Christians forget the meaning of Jesus and argue amongst their neighbors. The reason why they are doing it is because they are not intelligent - some people don't understand what metaphors are. Jesus spoke in many metaphors, so ignorant people fail to understand their are two meanings for one thing he said in those cases. More over, he said that he came from his father, not came from himself. Jesus said that he was going back to become one with his father, he was sure that the way would be through himself. Because he said that does not give anybody a right to judge - and by saying that one is not going to get to the father without Jesus is judging them. So all those religious guys on the street with their microphones saying what we are all familiar with, I want to take their microphones. The reason why Christians challenge others on what Jesus said is because they do not have the spirit of Jesus, they do not love people, and they are not intelligent.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

Well, I've never heard anyone say that Jesus was the Father (and that makes zero sense, so I'm not surprised,) but Jesus as creator, that's nothing new.

You must have missed the OPs sig declaring Jesus is Yahweh.
Yahweh is understood by most christians to be God in the Old Testament... i.e - The father.'

So this Jesus = Yahweh theology basically teaches that Jesus is the Father.... defying basic logic and common sense.

edit on 5-8-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Already made my case with plenty of books and chapters to back it up. According to trinitarian logic it fits, but i don't even need that, because the OT says the same thing. Keep in mind the word LORD replaced the tetragrammaton YHWH, and see who the Savior is.

14 Thus says the Lord:

“The labor of Egypt and merchandise of Cush
And of the Sabeans, men of stature,
Shall come over to you, and they shall be yours;
They shall walk behind you,
They shall come over in chains;
And they shall bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying, ‘Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.’”
15 Truly You are God, who hide Yourself,
O God of Israel, the Savior!
16 They shall be ashamed
And also disgraced, all of them;
They shall go in confusion together,
Who are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved by the Lord
With an everlasting salvation;
You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
Forever and ever.

18 For thus says the Lord,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret,
In a dark place of the earth;
I did not say to the seed of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in vain’;
I, the Lord, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.

20 “Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21 Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

22 “Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness,
And shall not return,
That to Me every knee shall bow,
Every tongue shall take an oath.
24 He shall say,
‘Surely in the Lord I have righteousness and strength.
To Him men shall come,
And all shall be ashamed
Who are incensed against Him.
25 In the Lord all the descendants of Israel
Shall be justified, and shall glory.’”


Philipians 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is Yahweh. Only one name whereby men must be saved. He is the Savior and according to Isaiah he is the LORD or as it should be written YHWH. The word Lord is Adonai, which is a title. In Matthew we see Jesus saying he is greater than the Temple, the only thing greater than the temple back then was Yahweh, the temple was his sanctuary.

Matthew 12:1-8

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”

3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

Jesus commands the Sabbath, he was the One walking through the grainfields and he is the One who confronted the pharisees.

Jesus is not separate from God - Jesus is form, the manifestation of God.
The source of Jesus is formless - God.

Emptiness is form, form is emptiness.

Are the sun rays separate from the sun? The sun ray is not the sun but it's source is the sun.

whups... wrong topic