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Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
Originally posted by NorEaster
Metaphysics (my own definition, of course) is where it's all headed, and reality will at least be basically understood to be real, objective, and experiencable by the human mind to a level that will give each of us a fighting chance to come to a reasonable understanding of what is real and what is delusion. Of course, the human mind will never be fully capable of accurate determination, but perception has its charms as well.
Reality is already basically understood to be real, objective, and experienceable etc. etc.
Where on earth do you get the idea I've suggested or encouraged some sort of mystical/mythical exclusivity?
Pointing to 3D for the 2D vantage point to contemplate is far from trying to create a velvet rope. You are creating your own velvet rope by denying what is right in front of you. What is the math (geometry) telling the Flatlanders? What is the math (geometry) telling the Spacelanders? Extrapolate upwards, follow the whirlpools, and voila. It's nothing incomprehensibly magical or exclusive and I will never claim otherwise.
I agree fully that the information is the breakthrough, but sure... keep looking for someone else to attack. Notice in your effort to put someone else in a position of claiming authority, you descend into claiming your own authority yourself.
Originally posted by NorEaster
Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
Originally posted by NorEaster
Metaphysics (my own definition, of course) is where it's all headed, and reality will at least be basically understood to be real, objective, and experiencable by the human mind to a level that will give each of us a fighting chance to come to a reasonable understanding of what is real and what is delusion. Of course, the human mind will never be fully capable of accurate determination, but perception has its charms as well.
Reality is already basically understood to be real, objective, and experienceable etc. etc.
And yet, half of the posters in this forum deny the existence of reality as an objective, experienceable quantity. Go figure.
Originally posted by NorEaster
Where on earth do you get the idea I've suggested or encouraged some sort of mystical/mythical exclusivity?
The term "flatlanders" suggests exactly this. You called me a flatlander because I don't subscribe to the notions that the OP introduced, and I know what that term implies. That idea came to me in direct response to a post that you made in this thread, replying to the OP immediately after my own reply. Doesn't bother me, but it does suggest that you see yourself - and apparently the OP as well - as being delineated from folks like myself as a result of your enlightened view of the true nature of consciousness relative to reality as a whole.
Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
We are all sharing our vantage points, and some don't shy away from sharing theirs with those who scream "I can't see what you see therefore you must be wrong!"... chuckling at the irony of them denying what they see, blaming them for some supposed claims of "privilege", and then screaming how the 2D view is what's incoming to 3D.
Especially when they also say "I don't want to put in the work you did to see what you see, make it easier for me". You don't get good at mountain climbing by other mountain climbers making it easier to "do" aka "understand". We can only make it easier to watch others doing it. At best a smoother path can be carved, but less is understood about the mountain on that path.
Here is the Mountain: We literally exist at multiple dimensions (or density if you prefer) at all "times" as one cohesive flowing field of energy. That lays the foundation for everything we ever need to know. Now we start figuring out what we're going to do with this information.
No hiding, magic, mystery, privilege, velvet ropes, etc. only recognizing the actual mountain and moving forward on learning how to climb that mountain.
You are right, your view is incoming, and you are right, your perceptions are incomplete. You don't own all cameras taking snapshots of the truth. One person's "magic" and "mysticism" is another person's misunderstood science and (more efficient) poetic scientific descriptions.
/Best Wishes To A Fellow Being (I can alter the wave as many times as you like till you see past the divisive letters of communication and simply reduce to the heart of the communication)edit on 2012/7/24 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by NorEaster
Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
We are all sharing our vantage points, and some don't shy away from sharing theirs with those who scream "I can't see what you see therefore you must be wrong!"... chuckling at the irony of them denying what they see, blaming them for some supposed claims of "privilege", and then screaming how the 2D view is what's incoming to 3D.
But what have you actually shared? In this thread anyway. What is the 3D view, as opposed to the 2D view? We "flatlanders" have no idea what you're referring to, so are you actually sharing anything at all?
Originally posted by NorEaster
And this mountain you refer to...is this the meditation regimen that some suggest is required? Or is it the grueling hours of YouTube video watching it takes to suddenly attain enlightenment? The meditation effort - that involves NOT thinking...right? And pushing all thoughts OUT of your mind. Okay, that pathway to wisdom seems a bit counter-intuitive to me, but again, as a flatlander, I'm somewhat hindered by my innate ignorance. To me, wisdom is achieved by way of actual application of knowledge within the arena of ongoing existence, and as a result of winning and losing life's contests, large and small. Not by emptying one's head of all thought.
Originally posted by NorEaster
As far as the YouTube videos, I've poured over dozens and dozens of the most celebrated enlightenment vehicles that exist, and I don't know...maybe it only works for the chosen people.
Originally posted by NorEaster
Here is the Mountain: We literally exist at multiple dimensions (or density if you prefer) at all "times" as one cohesive flowing field of energy. That lays the foundation for everything we ever need to know. Now we start figuring out what we're going to do with this information.
No hiding, magic, mystery, privilege, velvet ropes, etc. only recognizing the actual mountain and moving forward on learning how to climb that mountain.
um...that mountain doesn't exist. Energy is the result of changes in physical state. It isn't primordial any more than consciousness is. Don't get lost misinterpreting Newton's 1st Law of Thermodynamics (like most newscasters do) as evidence that energy is akin to God. We do not exist within energy. We are not energy. Energy exists, but it's not an environment of its own. It is not a contextual relationship between existential wholes - which is what an environment is.
You've embraced an imaginary mountain.
Originally posted by NorEaster
When you persist in wrapping details in metaphor and allegory (like your mountain of multiple dimensions and energy fields that defy specific definition) then you perpetuate mysticism. That's because what you're engaging in is what created the practice of mysticism to begin with. Hiding the truth behind veils of analogy that require an initiate to "do the hard work" to translate what you've created as a barrier between them and what you feel they should work for if they are to be deserving of. No different than the last 2000 - 6000 years of velvet ropes.
Like I said, the time is coming when there will be no more metaphors. No more allegories. When "knowing" won't actually exist anymore. The truth will be obvious, and it will be obvious to everybody. Not because anyone has changed, or become enlightened per se, but because the veils themselves will have been torn down forever.
Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
Originally posted by NorEaster
Reality is already basically understood to be real, objective, and experienceable etc. etc.
And yet, half of the posters in this forum deny the existence of reality as an objective, experienceable quantity. Go figure.
Exactly... isn't it cool?
Have you considered what it would be like if that weren't the case? Have you considered *that's the point*?
Originally posted by NorEaster
Where on earth do you get the idea I've suggested or encouraged some sort of mystical/mythical exclusivity?
The term "flatlanders" suggests exactly this. You called me a flatlander because I don't subscribe to the notions that the OP introduced, and I know what that term implies.
I'm not "enlightened" per any sort of application you may try to use it. Otherwise I wouldn't be here swapping vantage points with you.
The term "flatlander" has nothing to do with exclusivity... and merely reflects a difference in points of views. Nothing more. A flatlander is observing from within one rule-set... a Spacelander is observing from another rule-set... a Timelander is observing from within another rules-set, etc. None of them have an exclusive on the truth and in fact... the Flatlander's perspective is just as valid as a Timelander's, but it is by simple mathematical necessity a more limited scope.
I have nothing to teach. I'm not trying to teach. I'm not trying to be obscure. I'm sorry you are annoyed by other methods of people communicating, but I know what works for me and people who can see from a similar vantage point, which is the only thing we have to offer via conversations such as these... our most honest account of what we see. I've heard thousands upon thousands of people who have thought deeply say brilliant things that didn't work for me, especially when I first heard them and didn't have enough common ground with them to make a connection.
If what I or another says doesn't click for you... then yes throw it away and keep seeking what does work for you.
You are finding enemies in the words that aren't there. You are biting hands that are reaching because they don't look the way you expect.
Enjoy your ride!edit on 2012/7/24 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by NorEaster
I don't play at philosophy. Metaphysics isn't a hobby. This is difficult work, and while I love it, I love it as work. Not as entertainment.
Originally posted by NorEaster
For the last couple centuries, it's been used as a derogatory term. You may want to not use it unless you intend to insult someone. Just a heads-up.
Originally posted by NorEaster
I have posted many times that when I challenge a premise, I am actually posting for the lurkers, and not trying to change the mind of the poster that I am replying to. I suppose that this is another moment to clarify this again. For every poster, there are (up to) 50 lurkers who will read the thread and never post in it at all. In fact, if you check the board stats (on the forums page) you'll see that for every 500 users, there are generally 3500 guests that only read what we post. I post for the people who read, and never bother to comment.
I appreciate it when someone takes me on, and allows me the chance to examine a topic that interests me, or one that is central to the larger work that I've taken on. This is a very public arena, and while no one expects to be seriously considered all the time or even a majority of the time, if a handful of readers walk away with a new idea concerning the topic being discussed, then I feel as if I've used the time successfully.
Thank you for your time. I've enjoyed our exchange.
Originally posted by ErgoTheConfusion
Originally posted by NorEaster
um...that mountain doesn't exist. Energy is the result of changes in physical state. It isn't primordial any more than consciousness is. Don't get lost misinterpreting Newton's 1st Law of Thermodynamics (like most newscasters do) as evidence that energy is akin to God. We do not exist within energy. We are not energy. Energy exists, but it's not an environment of its own. It is not a contextual relationship between existential wholes - which is what an environment is.
You've embraced an imaginary mountain.
And if something doesn't change, would it be perceived?
Is your chair not just energy in tiny eternally changing/flowing energy? Are we really needing to have a discussion about whether there is any actual matter vs just "light" in various patterns?
It can't get any less metaphorical than "you exist in more than just this spacial and temporal state you find yourself in". We each find our own ways of exploring that as best we can.
You are lumping me in with some supposed group of people trying to surpress truth, or have some resistance to the veils dropping. This is a strange stance, but whatever you see please express.edit on 2012/7/24 by ErgoTheConfusion because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by PeaceLoveProject
Biggest conspiracy known to man is that when you are told what you are inhaling and exhaling is oxygen... This ["Oxygen"] is god.
Consciousness, our ability to be aware. We tend to think it comes from us... but the argument is that if we are separated from this for 4 minutes... what's the first think you lose? Consciousness. Therefore consciousness does not come from you, it is a gift from god.
Originally posted by NorEaster
The chair is actually an event. Not energy. Then again, energy is an event as well.
That means that it's incredibly important that we each get this stretch of reality as accurately figured out as we possibly can. What we learn here is what we'll each be building our own individual eternities on, for better or worse.