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posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 




In mathematics, if you owe three people $10, then you are negative $30 (3 X -10 = $-30).

I'm not negative anything. I'd rather stay out of your examples to avoid you trying to inflict an emotional reaction from me. I'm not here to play games with you. Let's see if this pans out, further than you trying to tell me I'm negative 30 dollars.


If the lenders then say, "We forgive you for this debt because we love you," then you are free from that debt by another negative.
The thirty dollars being the original sin, which I don't have, and the lenders being some sort of jesus or god persons.

The second negative becomes some sort of mafia debt I owe them now.

You have just had three subtractions of -10, making you three positives of $10 (-3 X -$10). Your debt is -30 + 30 = Zero.
Youre doing the math for your own purpose. If it comes up later that these numbers are important, I'll punch them into a calculator.

Jesus died a horrible death to pay our debt,
People die all the time, under various circumstances. Very few manage to get themselves killed at the hands of the local government. So even if my homeboy jesus died at the romans, who supposedly hit him to a stick in public display of authority, I doubt I would have single handedly defeated their armies to stop it. However, dude is from about two thousand years ago. I've never met him.


walking us back to a positive value.
Oh, youve been getting these mafia deals too have you. Were do we always come up with our negative thirty dollars from. We should already know better.


Two negatives multiplied make a positive.
www.mathsisfun.com...

True!


Apart from Jesus, we are only able to add and subtract debt.
I don't know if youre substituting the word jesus for an equation, for a pre-existing number, or that he also has the inexplicable minus thirty dollars.


With God, we are able to multiply. Debt is forgiven.
God being the counting house of all this negative thirty dollars. So the thirty dollars he told us we owe him is forgiven, and we owe him a family favour that may or may not cost us our firstborn some years down the road.

This is so much work, now I'm dealing with extra portions being copy pasted.
edit on 20-7-2012 by Kapkalna because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



You might make the case that one life is too short to get the truth of what God is saying to us.

Wow, I hope not. Then why are you devoting your life to him if even that wont be enough.


You might make the case for equality, that some have much and some have little.

I don't know what you think I mentioned.


You might make the case that some die young and some live to old age. What did Jesus say about this?

About the human lifespan, I dont know what this person jesus might have said. But I know what the internet says. In my country, its about 80.8 years.


He said, "you must be born again." Such a simple truth, yet we miss it entirely.

Yeah, I'm guessing you're talking about having kids. To sustain a countries population, every couple would have to have an average of 2.4 kids. So each person has to be reborn 1.2 times to make it balance!


I can't expound on it here, but in my signature link, there is an article on water and spirit baptism.

I'm not that interested. No offense to you.


Water baptism is the symbol for our immersion into the water of life. We are shown, in each life, what we need to be shown for that experience. Knowing this, divine justice now makes more sense.

No, even if I followed you through it, I dont have reason to believe it would make more sense. I might be inclined to say so because of the time invested. Its the same way bad video games get good reviews. The player wasted all that time and doesn't want to own up to it. They don't look further than themselves, to know to alert other gamers to the circumstances. The game was that bad that they entirely forgot to give it a bad rating instead of giving it a good rating out of maliciousness. You could say, they wanted to bring down other people with them.


Live by the sword and you will die by the sword.

I laugh when I read this, because I never thought it would ever be brought up in a real discussion. My favourite rapper says "Live by the gun and die by the next ...if that's the case then get a bigger one." I think what the rapper says is true. You can either be a victim or go all out. A person can definitely be a victim where I grew up. The first time I was left in camp for the summer, our house got robbed.


We reap what we sow from life to life and grow by the experience.

From life. I cant help but notice you added another to "life." I'm guessing you're talking about the lessons you teach your kids.


If you understand that there is a baptism by water,

No, I'd rather discuss practical ideas right now. I dont want to hear about the showmanship that convinced the tribes of the west or whatever that this magic business is real.


then extend this by the other baptisms that are mentioned in scripture. In Matthew 3 alone, there are three. Water, Fire and Spirit. What's left? Earth and Air.
Yeah, I think thats an internet meme. With the powers of wind, fire and earth, I summon you captain planet. I never watched that show. It might be a few years ahead of my time.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 



Confucius said, "I hear and I forget. I see and I learn. I do and I understand."

Oh, okay confucius. Wonderful.


Earth - We are planted into the Garden. We are not rooted in the soil like plants or in a fixed domain like fish.

Look, I appreciate all this. But I don't want to show you any disrespect. I'm skipping the part where you shift into preaching. If its an important part of this discussion, I'll revisit it.



Yes, suffering is the point. You have the ability to direct the suffering forward for reward that extends to everyone around you. This is love.

No, I dont redirect suffering to anywhere else. I take responsibility for my actions and intelligently react to my environment. I don't have to try to cast voodoo hexes on other people or seek shelter in the absence of thought through an invisible humanoid. I fully embrace the pain the world feels. I let it run through my fingers, the hunger and disease of africa. Of child soldiers. I weep when I see their story. I don't run from these things.

The world hasn't broken me, and yes, I will venture so far as to say you have to be a truly broken man to venture into the gates of hell, or church, or I forget which side you guys are on. Just kidding. You're on the side of good, because you invented the devil to be bad for you. I don't cause pain to the people around me. That's not love at all. I cut those kinds of people from my life. Especially when they try to translate that idea into finance.

You know what. I have been a truly broken man. That's not true where I say broken men head to jesus. I think it's the opposite. Those who haven't lost it all, fear losing it the most. That is the type of person who can be convinced in these eternal debt scientology or christianity things. Though I think they got John Travolta through blackmail of gay photos. He admit he's been gay in the past now. He didn't know to give it all away by his own hand, rather than to fear the prospect of somebody else giving it all away for him.

The knowledge of being unable to turn to god for your problems is that very few people of the developed world get the privilege of experiencing.
edit on 20-7-2012 by Kapkalna because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by Kapkalna
 



This is a bit delusional, if you're okay with me saying so. You say jesus suffered for us, the concept with which I'm familiar. Then you say your religious belief is somehow tied to mathematics. I don't understand how you'll claim the science of math lends your personal beliefs validity. I think you say it so the person you're talking with becomes confused and doesn't question your words. Unfortunately, you're not running away anywhere this time.


I'm trying to reduce the greater case to the lesser. They are a reflection of each other. If you throw a piece of trash in my yard, you have created a debt. I have a choice to fix the negative you caused. I can pick the trash up (Suffer work) and the negative is cancelled by my positive. Suffering creates positive. Your negative was caused by doing something the easy way. You took reward, which caused a debt for me. If I had come beat you for throwing trash in my yard, there are now two negatives (The trash and the fight). I have other choices.

I could pick up the trash, then go to your home and pick up your yard as well as a kindness. This creates more positive than the one negative. To create this, I would be required to suffer work. There is no getting around the debt issue with God. We have created a world drowning in debt. The national debt of 17 trillion dollars is only one example of taking the reward before the work is done. Will we pay this debt?

Only multiples of positive can walk us back to our place of glory with God. Jesus suffered the necessary work for our ultimate good. Love demands this of us all. We pay it forward for others.

This thread was about the other thread, "Jesus is the only way to God." Mathematics is on God's side. It's not about what we do, but what has been done for us.


edit on 20-7-2012 by EnochWasRight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by Kapkalna
 




"Yes, suffering is the point. You have the ability to direct the suffering forward for reward that extends to everyone around you. This is love."

No, I dont redirect suffering to anywhere else. I take responsibility for my actions and intelligently react to my environment. I don't have to try to cast voodoo hexes on other people or seek shelter in the absence of thought through an invisible humanoid. I fully embrace the pain the world feels. I let it run through my fingers, the hunger and disease of africa. Of child soldiers. I weep when I see their story. I don't run from these things.


Entirely my point. Apart from our willingness to go over there and suffer for their betterment, they will languish in the poverty that was originally caused by us in the first place. Our raping of their natural resources and manpower caused their plight in the first place. We took a reward from them that we did not earn. Jesus rested his message on the golden rule. Suffering is necessary for our work to save those in a state of hunger and disease. Of course, they have the same choice.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by Kapkalna
 




The knowledge of being unable to turn to god for your problems is that very few people of the developed world get the privilege of experiencing.


When Jesus said, "you must be born again," he meant it. You will be born again. It's the process of baptism into the water of reality. We are immersed to reveal our own true hearts. Light is not seen. It reveals what it reflects on, otherwise, we would only see light between us and other objects. Air is a smaller particle than light, therefore, light pass through. We know and are known by our reflection in the light. Darkness is necessary for the process.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 





I'm trying to reduce the greater case to the lesser. They are a reflection of each other. If you throw a piece of trash in my yard, you have created a debt.
No, you don't try to create an original sin with me. A) I already know what you're doing. Not only have we just recently discussed the concept, but its the only one believers have demonstrated to be capable of understanding. B) Your god person would be mad you're trying to employ his tricks yourself and C) I can throw all the garbage I want into your yard and you would never know it was me. I can throw entire trash bags into your yard, all I have to do is wait until night and do it from the opposite neighbours side. You'd think its him and I'd only have to stop after somebody sets up surveillance equipment or that neighbour moves away.


I have a choice to fix the negative you caused. I can pick the trash up (Suffer work) and the negative is cancelled by my positive. Suffering creates positive. Your negative
I reject your concept that I somehow did you harm and am indebted to you, but finish your idea


was caused by doing something the easy way.
I'd rather you not get into what is and isn't easy, and how doing things the easy way is doing them wrong. I don't believe youre ready for that sort of thinking. We can get into why. I guess I have to get into why. Youre talking about how the physical ease of throwing garbage into a lawn is directly parallel to the morality of the action. We don't have to create immediate and not necessarily helpful guidelines that hinder the progression of our discussion.


You took reward, which caused a debt for me. If I had come beat you for
You dont even want to try me. Not with your metaphorical violence, not with your "But its just an example." Next paragraph.




I could pick up the trash, then go to your home and pick up your yard as well as a kindness.
So telling me my yard is in disarray to get me upset, in case the mock violent threats didnt get me. Somehow you have to knock me from rational thinking, right down to fearful abandonment of logic, at which you are already king.


This creates more positive than the one negative. To create this, I would be required to suffer work.
I'm not getting into how you feel its just to try to incite fear in others to pick up your workload. You are not the holy roman church. You might scare a few neighbourhood kids into doing things for you. You might coerce people from your community with threat of slander into helping your weekend activities around the church. But you dont get paid for this abuse. Therefore, I dont value the punishment of active mind into enslavement syndrome you substitute for doing things yourself.

You ended your paragraph with a question, tell me if this paragraph was important and I'll read through it.




Only multiples of positive can walk us back to our place of glory with God.
You are completely out to space now. Let me just get to your next post.
edit on 20-7-2012 by Kapkalna because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 12:55 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 





Entirely my point.

You have a point, what is your point? I'm not reading how you linked my point and said its yours, to which now I'm to apply my thoughts and ideas and reveal to you how to defeat it. Absolute lack of thought will never defeat even poor thinking ability. I can't imagine you've ever been successful with your tactic. You probably only go this far after you think your fear inducing has already set in.


Apart from our willingness to go over there and suffer for their betterment,

Go over where. I'm guessing youre talking about how I mentioned africa. I don't have any sort of willingness to go over there and suffer anybodys betterment. Don't involve me when you make statements, so you can later absolve yourself of all responsibility and say I said it.


they will languish in the poverty that was originally caused by us in the first place.
Skipping to next paragraph


When Jesus said, "you must be born again," he meant it. You will be born again.
It seems youre addressing the psychotic eternal debt idea, rather than where I tried to make you sound like you were talking about having kids. Don't be offended if I skip through whats about to come.


It's the process of baptism into the water of reality.
I'm sorry. I just cant do this. Just advance to your next topic. You've already whipped out the waters of saint john or whatever. I'm not interested. I wasn't interested then, I wasnt interested now. I will not have your green eggs and ham.
edit on 20-7-2012 by Kapkalna because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 01:21 PM
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We can continue tomorrow. I have to sleep now, for my health. I have a few things I would like to say to you about following a 2000 year old way of life in preparation of a man named jesus, who was supposed to appear during your parents time. And your parents parents time. And in the year 400.

I'll read your next post(s) in 8 or so hours.



posted on Jul, 20 2012 @ 10:49 PM
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www.youtube.com...=2397s C2CAM - Aleppo Codex Mystery - 06-10-2012 (Coast To Coast AM)

The man being interviewed discusses the early jewish bible. The jews were the masterminds behind all this god business. The bible appeared when they found themselves spread out across many lands. It would have to be translated word to word, to avoid different types of judaism from forming.

People use the idea of following their bible word for word as a measure of how faithful they are. Christians have rewritten their bible many times. Muslims are forbidden to even translate their bible from arabic. What was the purpose of this? For continuing the faith in many different lands as a united people.

In 2012, we have computers and internet. We don't have any sort of communications hurdle. I can press a button and be able to talk to relatives from all across the planet. The misguided idea that a person is somehow a better believer through following the book directly stems from 900- 400 BCE ask.yahoo.com... which was nothing more than the jews looking to prevent divisions in their faith.

You understand all that. Now you're ready for the shocking reality, one that your deity might not have prepared you for. Actually, muslims have been at least told of other religions existing. That's why they have their own level of hell for jews and christians in their holy scripture. The reason for that is they created their religion only recently, around the year 600 CE en.wikipedia.org... Their religion solved their blood feuds between their tribes. Maybe there was something more to this jewish business? But make sure you write them off as going to hell while youre at it.

Religion is meant to bring peace and harmony. In the year 600 AD, both christians and jews should have done that Xzibit face www.vertigogaming.net... and said you know what, maybe we don't need to turn religion on its head as a reason to divide. Maybe we should stick to the idea behind it, rather than pretending we each ourselves are the best at invisible ideas.

Religion reached the peak of its purpose around that very same year, when muslims found their slice of the pie, but wrote off the other ones.

Now in 2012, you base your life around the way people from the year zero behaved. Yet you cheat- you make use of electricity and the conveniences of modern life. You want to be religious? Here you go. en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
These people believe in invisible things for real. They avoid all sorts of modern convenience. They've carved a life for themselves true to form. They drive their horse carriages right next to peoples Toyotas. We should all stand and applaud the amish and mennonites for having integrity in a world of make believe.

Not to mention, you cant really make a nuclear weapon out of a stick and hay. You don't want to combine religious beliefs across judaism/ christianity/ muslim, yet you want to arm yourselves with all of the technology the modern world has to offer... its time for the parents to take your toys away. Many people the world over have dealt with the reality that life has suffering and pain entirely on their own. They don't try to scare people with their own imaginary stories. They don't cheat on their wives because they know its wrong. Do they really have to die because somebody didn't read the age on the box and allowed you to have a toy that was beyond your mental age group?

I say that with every molecule of my existence. Immaturity www.thefreedictionary.com... is described as not being fully developed. Religion was fully developed around 2000 years ago, at which level it only degenerated and degenerated. Human beings arent ready for the common hallucination of other worldly entities. Every time somebody believes in them, 10 minutes later somebody else figures out you can invent your own, to serve your own needs more adequately. Humanity as a race must step up and make illegal invisible belief. Invisible beliefs are a crime against humanity. The only ones who did it right, that I know of, are the amish and the mennonites. They can play with their toys.



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by autowrench

Originally posted by jude11
I keep wondering why ATS is turning into a Religious debate forum and exactly how far it will go down that road.

Seems that's all there is here some days and we have to wear our hip waders.


Peace

I think it boils down to this: The Membership of ATS have placed on the table for full examination many different and diversified topics over the years. Many conspiracies have been cleared up, and a host of new information on some has surfaced.

Now it is time to place the established faith based religions on the table for a full examination and dissection. Lets us look hard at their book, their faith, and their religion in general, and see what makes it tick, if anything. Let us see the origins of the things they hold dear to heart. Let is see the truth of everything about them. After all, Christianity has been attempting to run America for years, and once even tried to carve out a land for themselves within America.

I ask you, what is wrong with this effort? Are Christians so insecure and so scared they will be proven wrong that they do not want to be investigated? Do they now want to know the origins of their Gods and Devils, and their book?


I understand your take and agree 100% on the premise. However, it is absolutely impossible to have a reasonable and fact based debate when most Christians will only quote the bible and state it as fact without offering any other info or taking into consideration anything that is not scripture based.

It's as if there is no use debating the bible because it's just...true. That's it. Conversation over.

So eventually it turns to a heated discussion based on what non believers say is blind faith and no fact vs science used to destroy the true word.

There is no win here because we will never know until...kaboom.

Peace



posted on Jul, 21 2012 @ 12:35 AM
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This is whats wrong with religionists, and I dont want to take any sort of atheist view. Atheism is a cop out. Its what you write on government documents. To actually go around in the streets telling people you're atheist makes you even more of a roadshow than people who believe in gods.

1. Religionists pervert the idea of sharing. They are unable to combine their religions. Even when their holy figures are all invisible and open to interpretation, they can be darn sure it doesn't match yours. Instead of saying, you know what? Okay, maybe jesus could have been black or mexican. Or mother theresa could have been transgendered with a moustache. It doesnt change the way I live my life. NO. They are not open to these things, least of all to combine their religion with other believers. They think life is a hockey game where it's non believers versus believers versus believers versus believers. All at the same time. They don't even play a best of seven tournament. Not only do thew draw imaginary divisions amongst themselves, they

2. Draw imaginary divisions across the human race. I already stated the insignificance skin pigmentation played in the ancient world.

You really have to call dark evil and light good? What is wrong with you? People have these skin colors for real. Have you never seen a black or white person at the time of writing your holy doctrine? How would that bypass somebody who's revising it who has?

3. All the format of the house of worship does is indoctrinate the uncivilized human being into being able to sit in class. You know how to sit in class, especially if you know how to pick up a pen and use it. Very few uncontacted civilizations exist today.

You might be using your daily prayers for a source of meditation. Wonderful. Studies in prisons have been found to reduce the occurence of violence. en.wikipedia.org...

But guess what, you're using it as a source of meditation. Absolutely no vendetta to kill different believers has to be attached to it.

4. The positive sense of unity religion brings is from being in the presence of many harmonious people. This exact same thing is achieved in properly designed city streets, in pedestrian walkways, in shopping malls, in libraries... Human society depends on people being able to get along with each other.

Yet you somehow try to steal the idea that humans can work together, then repackage it as 'religion caused this.' No pal, necessity caused it. Humans with a brain realised they can achieve more and get what they want if they just work together.

5. Religion prays on the mentally disabled. When somebodys brain doesnt work properly, you might move them into an asylum. Hopefully these people would be provided gardens to stroll and live somewhat enjoyable lives.

Nope. That's unacceptable. These people have to be driven home the fact that their invisible entities can be seen by others, that they're known as demons, and that they should have shame for themselves for being unpure.

The lack of basic logic a fully functional person would employ to avoid this perpetual mental imprisonment, is exploited to its limit by the religious bodies.

Beating somebody into being your slave is one thing. I can understand the idea of not pretending it's my time to take a stand when I use the airport for transportation. That's not the time for me to be mad they're opening my suitcase and holding up my underwear for everybody to see. You know why? The airport security has guns. They have multiple people with guns. I can be perfectly content to let them ruffle through my belongings and pretend I'm a terrorist, if it means I'll be able to use a flight to reach my destination in less time than travelling by car.

Maybe they even have a reason for it, because they actually found a terrorist back in 19--. Maybe all these security checks are more cost efficient than buying a new plane.

But you know what isn't right, and downright malicious? Ruining a persons entire life just because you want your holy roman church to reign supreme. That person spends their life thinking theyre unvalued, not living in the present and never having genuine friends.

Killing human beings is wrong, inflicting pain before killing them is wrong, inflicting pain and then releasing the target to cause a regional wall of fear is wrong. We can understand that. But trying to prevent you from being able to develop your own brain - that which sets you apart from animals - is the most despicable thing the human race has ever done to itself.



posted on Jul, 22 2012 @ 02:13 AM
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reply to post by CoolerAbdullah786
 


Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
See, I personally, as of right now, don't believe in NDEs for a few reasons.


Personally, I see one reason and one reason only for believing such things:


"Every major religion in the world has been manufactured or infiltrated by the Illuminati to enslave and brainwash society. In essence, religion was the first form of mind control." Link


Many eyes have been opened to the true nature of the world by tragedy that can be a simple heartbeat away.

You are GOING to see the truth.

Regardless of how hard you try to hold on to the lies that blind you.

Russian Psychiatrist George Rodonaia Killed By KGB


Dr. George Rodonaia's Near Death Experience


ATHEIST PROFESSOR IN HELL - Howard Storm


A former atheist went to hell...what he saw !


The Lazarus Phenomenon - part 1


The Lazarus Phenomenon - part 2



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