A Challenge To Occupy Detractors: Watch and Let's Discuss

Originally posted by Kali74
reply to post by Son of Will

 

Originally posted by Kali74

This movie is a view of the beginning phases of the movement through the eyes of film maker, I think it is a fairly well done representation of who we are and why we are.

My challenge is for those of you who enjoy slamming the movement, don't understand the movement, or think we have nothing legitimate to say... watch it... all of it(1:15:35) and post anything from the movie you would like to discuss or debate. Please do not drive-by post, if you're not going to watch, please don't clutter the thread.

You are of course entitled to your opinion and to post as you please but I specifically challenged people to watch the whole movie or to please not comment.

If you can't even summarize what the video is about, then making such a request is not reasonable. For a 75 minute video, a summary should be expected, no? I believe it's in the T&C to not just open a thread regarding a YT video with no explanation of what's in the video. Lots of people are unable to use sound, or to play videos, or simply don't have time to watch the whole thing.

You nailed it!
I attended one of the OWS rallies as well and talked with many people that supported Ron Paul.
They are tired of the corruption and crony capitalism we have in this country where the only ones that have a voice in our Government are the Criminal Financial Institutions and Big Corporations that go in and out of our government as they please.

Try as they might to frame it as "free loading hippies", in the end, the Satanic Elite at the top will be last and the meek will be first when this all comes to completion.

Originally posted by stanguilles7
...currently enjoying this hour plus film...

I've attended both Tea Party rallies and Occupy rallies.What 'they' want from the public is to not see the parallels of discontent with a broken, corrupted system. 'They" want us to think it's broken down on partisan lines. "They' want 'occupy' to be seen as the dirty socialist hippies and the tea party as angry racists. Anyone who says either of these things is the enemy.

Just finished watching this film, and it really is a great piece packed with info. It always astounds me how the critics of Occupy get hung up on the actions of one person in a video or the words on one protest sign (the same can be said about signs and individuals in the Tea Party movement too, of course) and they never have a response when you ask them about the statistics and facts.

I would definitely recommend this video to anyone who uses that tired line of not knowing what Occupy stands for. If they watch that and STILL don't get it, or refuse to accept facts, you know they're a troll.

Originally posted by Son of Will


If you can't even summarize what the video is about, then making such a request is not reasonable. For a 75 minute video, a summary should be expected, no? I believe it's in the T&C to not just open a thread regarding a YT video with no explanation of what's in the video. Lots of people are unable to use sound, or to play videos, or simply don't have time to watch the whole thing.

edit on 8-7-2012 by Son of Will because: (no reason given)

Oh sweet lord. You've spent more time now saying this over and over than it would have taken to watch the video and participate in a constructive dialogue. If you dont want to watch what the OP is based on, then why even comment so much in the thread?

I'm just going to expose my ignorance with this one. I did not watch the film. If I remember, it was "American Autumn?" That was autumn of last year?

The reason I didn't watch is because of my (probably uninformed) opinion that OWS doesn't matter much any more. There may have been an "American Autumn," but there hasn't been any American Spring. I understand they're planning something for a couple of days this summer (or maybe, they've already had it, I don't know) but it doesn't seem to be nationwide with any force any more.

Is OWS doing anything to stay in the public discussion? They don't seem to be. I'm not criticizing OWS's principles, nor am I saying they don't stand for anything. It's just that they seem to have been eclipsed by the other events in the world and have lost their significance. Again, just my ignorant opinion, but how do you think the average non-ATS American sees them?

reply to post by Son of Will


You keep saying you want a dialogue, but arent willing to spend the time watching the video that the dialogue is based around?

I stopped watching when Cornel West showed up on screen a second time about half way through. NO point in watching any further. I know what he is all about.

Prior to that I noted Police Brutality and Healthcare reform (pushing for single payer) as some of the causes of the day. Of course the classic Corporate Greed was tossed in for good measure. It was also nice to see a rep from the Revolutionary Communist Party speak up in support of the movement.

This film is about the first couple of weeks of the movement and I will admit that when it first happened they got my attention (in a good way)... But, what has happened since?? The message was lost as the goal posts remain in constant motion. Why?? Because Occupy does not want results. Results mean that they have to go home and look for another cause or go back to school, back to mom and dads house or better yet back to work. By moving the goalposts, they don't have to work within the system that we have. Just easier to sit back and throw rocks and place blame. Each occupy center has a different mission.... The only common denominator is "corp. greed". Let's talk about govt greed. Dangerous governments with sweeping power. Power that is being pulled right out from under our feet. One day and one exec. order at a time.

How about a "film" about the apparent symbiotic relationship between Occupy, the Black Bloc, The Ruckus groups, Big Labor and professional muscle etc etc.? How about discussing the General Assemblies that vary from city to city all seeking approval from or getting disapproval from a General Assembly in NYC? (leaderless movement?)

I agree with Occupy that our system is broken. We just don't come together in regards to solutions. I believe in working from within the system that is in place. Take the message to DC and keep it there. Keep the pressure on our legislators. Push for strict term limits in Congress so people like Charlie Rangel et. al don't get wealthy and corrupt off of a career built on the backs of their constituents. Two terms and you are out!!!!! blah blah blah I'm tired...

reply to post by jibeho


Well, if you had watched the whole thing... the reason I set the challenge the way I did is because how many threads can we say the same thing in? The specific challenge was to watch the whole thing or to please not comment... if you had you would have seen some footage from DC and you would would have seen some dialogue about why so many people stay local and fight local. Instead you ended up posting the same old thing you always say and refuse to actual look and see if you might be wrong about us.

reply to post by Kali74


That's what happens when your little propaganda film sources supporters from the Revolutionary Communist Party and a prominent anti Semitic member of the DSA. All sheltered and openly embraced by Occupy. The majority of this nation can't relate. Period. You guys can't stand that fact. That's what drives you to push and push and push. It's like picking a scab until it bleeds and waiting for another scab to form so you can pick it again. That's what Occupy is like!!

Sorry, your film fails as does your personal requirements to post in this thread. I posted what I observed and managed to make half way through the muck. You should give me a star for my attempt

Perhaps you can answer some of my questions or address my legitimate concerns/observations in my previous post. Or are you just discounting my thoughts because I disagree. You got what you asked for and now you don't want it. Classic Occupy mentality!! Case Closed!

reply to post by jibeho


I was tired last night myself and missed some of your points.

I stopped watching when Cornel West showed up on screen a second time about half way through. NO point in watching any further. I know what he is all about.

I'm not sure what your issue is with Dr. West is other than he is a Democratic Socialist but the second time is the last time he's in there as I recall.

I noted Police Brutality

Do you think it was deserved?

and Healthcare reform (pushing for single payer)

Yes. Would you like to discuss it?

Of course the classic Corporate Greed was tossed in for good measure.

It's a very large part of our focus. Was there any specific you disagreed or agreed with?

It was also nice to see a rep from the Revolutionary Communist Party speak up in support of the movement.

He's an American should he not be allowed to speak because he's a communist? As stated many times before, yes we have communists, a good number of them... they aren't boogey men, they bring a lot to the table in my opinion. They aren't seeking to become Stalin. Anyway, what did you think about what he said?

But, what has happened since?? The message was lost as the goal posts remain in constant motion. Why?? Because Occupy does not want results. Results mean that they have to go home and look for another cause or go back to school, back to mom and dads house or better yet back to work.

A lot has happened since but that's beyond the focus of this thread. I think you do us a great disservice by stating we don't results because we amount to children not wanting to grow up. I re-challenge you to continue watching.

How about a "film" about the apparent symbiotic relationship between Occupy, the Black Bloc, The Ruckus groups, Big Labor and professional muscle etc etc.? How about discussing the General Assemblies that vary from city to city all seeking approval from or getting disapproval from a General Assembly in NYC? (leaderless movement?)

You could make your own film asking those questions. We are not obligated to our detractors.

Black Bloc has been addressed many times. I've asked you before what your issue is with Ruckus but never got an answer, I've never met any members that I know of, I don't recall hearing anything about them at all within Occupy though I'm sure many are among us.

Big Labor and professional muscle? We are in solidarity with rank and file union workers not Big Labor. It's usually discussed beforehand of an action if Big Labor is going to be on the scene and warnings are issued that they will try to drag occupiers into their message.

Approval/Disapproval from NYCGA? That doesn't happen. If other GA's seek the endorsement of NYCGA it's mainly to spread the word, never for permission... and it also works unilaterally, most GA's seek the endorsement of other GA's so that it is made publicly aware there's support for an action. NYCGA isn't like central command or anything lol.

Originally posted by stanguilles7
'They" want us to think it's broken down on partisan lines. "They' want 'occupy' to be seen as the dirty socialist hippies and the tea party as angry racists. Anyone who says either of these things is the enemy.

Divide and Conquer.

Oldest trick in the book.

Occupy is still around? I thought they gave up once they saw how ineffective they were.

reply to post by DavidWillts


At least we can read and follow a requested outline of a thread.

reply to post by Kali74


That guy reresents SDS. Who else was in that group? Why it was Bill Ayers and the radical Weatherman Underground. SDS is a Marxist front group, always was and will be. Now why do you support them and post stuff for them?

Most of the recent attention on Barack Obama's radical associate and friend Bill Ayers has focused on Ayers' history with the terrorist Weather Underground (WU) group in the 1970s. But starting in the mid-1960s, Ayers was an influential leader of the revolutionary Marxist Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), from which the WU evolved.

"It is clear that SDS must begin to consciously transform itself from a student movement into a working class youth movement ... by emphasizing the commonality of the oppression and struggles of youth, and by making these struggles class conscious." But to it were added two crucial extensions, alliances with the black liberationists-"To recognize the vanguard character of the black liberation struggle means to recognize its importance to the 'white' movement"-and with the Third World-"All our actions must flow from our identity as part of an international struggle against U.S. imperialism." And to make any of this serious, to transform SDS into something that really could lead a revolutionary movement, what was necessary was a commitment to discipline. [SDS page 353]

www.americanthinker.com...

yep it's Marxist and Communist revolutionaries.

Originally posted by DavidWillts
Occupy is still around? I thought they gave up once they saw how ineffective they were.

Exactly.

Nothing to see here. Move along, citizen.

reply to post by Kali74

nevermind, i've read enough already.
2nd line

I'm coming into this discussion eyes wide open, so my tone may sound ackward. I hope I can provide a perspective here that is useful. I do tend to rant due to my profession, so bear with me if I miss how it all should go here.

I teach college sociology. That is just about the most liberal-minded you can get! I teach the theory of.. whatever! I love my job. Sociology was my favorite subject in college because it was the only class I could actually piss people off enough to get them to say what they're really feeling.

In my view, "society" is not just a bunch of facts regurgitated through a talking head (e.g. TV news, internet forums, etc). It's what happens when feelings arise because humans are affected by facts. No matter what you believe about how we got here, humans have emotions and no one knows why. This is really the only fact there is that is verifiable.

It is refreshing here when ATS posters do not hold back their feelings. Feelings are what makes humans, human! It is a bit worrisome to see people trying to siphon or justify their feelings through various "facts", which, in my profession, are found in such infinite abundance that they all end up sounding the same.

They mean nothing when confronted with the fragile finite uncertainty of how people feel. Facts are temporary. Feelings are forever. In fact (!), there is only one feeling - "ALIVE!" - and there is no end to the creative ways it can be expressed.

The most joyous sight I see in my classroom is after students obsessively research and proclaim all the temporary facts they can find, they eventually wear themselves down to the bottom line: the only thing they can count is how they feel. In that process, they learn what it means to be human, and what a precarious situation that is because no universal law would ever predict us. There is no math that can predict human feelings. Its the only thing we can be certain about.

Against our own standards of fact-gathering and logic, humanity is the universe gone insane. How did this happen? Maybe the universe needed a surprise, a problem to work on, something to do, something to be about. So here we are - the universe can't even figure us out! - and what do we do? We look for "facts" to support how we feel. Um, logical much?

Consider stating your feelings as feelings and the facts as facts. Consider that your feelings are the sure thing, and facts are not. Think about understanding the difference. Make no apology for your feelings - baffle the universe out of its boredom! - but also OWN them:

"I feel angry all the time" and "I have documents to prove the government is doing bad things" are two very different ways of framing a real problem. Which one do you want resolved in your lifetime? Which one is actually within your reach to fix? Which one matters?

Again, I'm sorry if I'm not doing this right. I tend to think in terms of the "big picture." I am learning from you all tons more than I could ever teach my students in one term. But I will still try to do the impossible because I'm human.

I watched the whole video, even took some rough notes...here is what I jotted down as I watched. I intended to have a longer reply that addressed each of the topics...but I don't disagree with "occupy" on most of the issues...I disagree with them on their methods.

So here is what I got from the video

-Money in Politics
*Problems:
- Politician who spends more wins
- Lesser of Two Evils
*Solution:
- Imagine a world where a single voice carries as much weight as goldman sachs
*How:
- ???

-Right to Occupy and Police Brutality


-Stop and Frisk and Prison Population

-Bank Foreclosures
*Problem:
- Lack of Government Regulations
- Govermnet bailouts
*Solution:
- If you live in a home, you should be able to stay in a home
*How:
- ???

-Healthcare Reform
*Problem:
- Healthcare access
*Solution:
- Medicare for All
*How:
- ???

-Workers Rights
*Problem:
- Union Busting
- Right To Work
*Solution:
- Support Unions
*How:
- ???

-War

-Education Costs
*Problem:
- student Loans
*Solution:
- ???
*How:
- ???

-Environment:
*Climate Change Deniers

-Citizens United:
*SCOTUS made the wrong decision.




It's not a bad video in regards to presenting the issues...but it still doesn't really clearly define how "occupy" proposes to solve any of them.

The problem I have always had with "occupy" is their methodology. They wanted to be a leaderless movement that had no defined message and not be involved in the political process. What that got them was the media defined them, fringe groups defined them, troublemakers defined them, and they have no solutions.

If you watch the video, every problem they define is something that Republicans champion. Every solution that they define is something that Democrats champion. Now I agree that Democrats haven't been very successful with following through with those solutions...so isn't that where Ocuppy should come in and take part in the process???

Occupy should have been the answer to the Tea Party...the Tea Party is/was successful. They got their people elected as Republicans, they are influencing Republican ideology, they are having an impact in Washington. If Occupy did the same thing and got "occupy" people elected as part of the Democratic party, they would have been a success. But they didn't...and they will be little more than a footnote in history.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


SDS is made up of more than one ideology. Dr. West describes himself as a non-Marxist Socialist.

I shall begin by making some basic distinctions between Marxist thought as a monocausal, unilinear philosophy of history that accurately predicts historical outcomes; Marxism it is exemplified in diverse "actually existing" Communist regimes in the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Poland and so forth; and Marxist theory as a methodological orientation toward the understanding of social and historical realities. Needless to say, I readily reject Marxist thought as a monocausal, unilinear, predictive science of history or a homogeneous, teleological narrative of past and present events. Such infantile Marxism has been subjected to persuasive criticism by Karl Popper, John Plamenatz, John Dewey and Raymond Aron from outside the Marxist tradition, and by members of the Frankfurt School (Adorno, Horkheimer, Marcuse), Raymond Williams and Antonio Gramci from within. I also reject, although not without sympathy for, the undemocratic regimes that regiment and dominate their peoples in the name of Marxism. As a democratic and libertarian socialist, I find these regimes morally repugnant, yet I wish to stress that detailed historical analysis of why they evolved as they have is required if we are to grasp their tragic predicament. Such analysis does not excuse the atrocities committed, yet it does give us a realistic sense of what these regimes have been up against.

Despite rejecting Marxist thought as a philosophy of history and Marxism as it has appeared in diverse "actually existing" Communist regimes, I hold that Marxist theory as a methodological orientation remains indispensable - although ultimately inadequate - in grasping distinctive features of African American oppression. As a methodological orientation, Marxist theory requires that we begin from two starting points....

-Cornel West, "Race and Social Theory" in the Cornel West Reader, p. 256

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