the natural state of man is co-operation

ants are described as hive minded, but i like to think they are just super smart and so at one with nature that their culture and the society that springs up to support the organism as a whole is naturally in tune with their surrounding environment.

what i mean is how smart is the ant culture?

as a cumulative?

i have read about micro enterprise where whole communities are getting together to produce goods,
and in co-operation the output and therefore efficiency of the system, is raising living standards
the community as a whole working co-operatively can out produce the efforts or labours of those working as individuals.

so by working together their standard of living increases,

by making unholy corporations with the rights of a person without the body to imprison,
and getting co-operating groups to hold their employer and their job as the reason to exist,
we have become slaves to corporations and their PRIVATE profits

makes the ants look like super geniuses,
you see no artificial structure of control and command,
the needs and functions that are required are communicated by hormones and scent ect

so if micro co-operation works why does it break down in larger scale structures?

the concentration of powers within the ant hive to any one ant would be a disaster to the natural functioning of the society and the offending ant with be dispatched from the hive, simply to keep order.

in our society an external mechanism is used to transmute the needs and work into a productive society, its light weight so we can carry it easily, its money.

now the transactions between each individual, are much more simplified and uniform, but the desire is no longer to co-operate, it is to compete. the idea of scarcity of money in the system that pitted us at each other in competition over an ever shrinking money pool.

no more co-operation for us?

"first by the inflation, then by deflation of the nations money supply, we will wake up renters in our own country,
and at each others throats"
not a direct quote,
but from a truly great man

im sure the ants would do the same thing if their hormone or sent signals went awry.

so who is responsible for the fact that we are now impossibly in efficient as a society and working in interests that do not serve the whole,

what can be done to stop the madness?

if we were ants we would throw out the ants with too much power from our societies, the outcasts ants always die away from the hive.

so what do humans do?
we give them corporate welfare and they pay themselves huge bonuses,
all the while abusing the mechanism for exchange that is money, we hold them in esteem?

the power of control of interest on money owed,
and the "roll over" interest,
the power of compounding interest,
free market price discovery,

these are the like the hormones and sents of the ants,
they are social controls,
economists talk about them like they are leavers to be pulled,
or switches to be flipped.

policy markers always talk in terms of cash fines to "get the right response" from the public,

interest make the society slaves to the hormones (money) and slaves to a credit contraction (austerity) and prevents us from removing the ants (bankers) who are wildly flipping leavers and flipping switches,in an attempt to keep the hive from throwing them into the ocean.

maby the ants model of co-operation is better than ours.
but maby to build an ant like society it would have to work in co-operation from the ground up,

the short term profit model of the casino banks, that puts profit over people,
or the wholesale starting up of co-operatives that serve the people first and interest and profit second?

choice is am i co-operative, do we work together in small groups for better out put?
or am i as an individual competitive, for an every decreasing piece of the money pool?

look at any tribe of humans, they always co-operate

xploder

reply to post by XPLodER


Great OP XPLodER,

I also believe that we are meant to cooperate but...

look at any tribe of humans, they always co-operate

At this point in our illustrious career as human beings may I suggest that we have the capacity to cooperate. But we definitely do not always utilize it.

You mentioned ants.

I can never forget the Hopi creation narrative and how we were taken in by the 'Ant People' when the third world was destroyed. The Ant People taught us everything they knew about how to cooperate to survive, the Hopi story is clear on this. And we were supposed to take that knowledge with us to the fourth world.

But we are #ing it up, aren't we?

Learning to use our powers of cooperation is something that requires practice. We have to get used to the new wetware; namely the pre-frontal cortex.

X.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. The natural state of man is domination. In all of the history of Homo Sapiens, what is one thing we've done better than anything else? Conquest.

It combines the blood-lust of murder with the convenience of taking whatever you want. And it also provides power. Lots of power. It appeals to the most deep-rooted, animalistic side of man...something that is very difficult to quell, and almost impossible to resist forever.

Humans are fundamentally insane. Put two or more in a room together, and they'll start dreaming of ways to kill each other.

Truer words were rarely ever spoken.

Humans are fundamentally insane. Put two or more in a room together, and they'll start dreaming of ways to kill each other.

And they are fundamentally divine, really cool, and make good food and music when not thinking of ways to kill one another.

AfterInfinity? I think that history will prove you correct. But at the same time we have never been at such a crucial place in the development of what we might think of as our most human qualities, empathy, forgiveness and loving-kindness.

I don't know if anyone has noticed or not, but the pre-frontal cortex does not 'just work'. It requires desire and attention to bring its powers on line...

Got 12 minutes?

It is the very nature of our intelligence, each one of us stands on a mountain of previous generations accomplishments.

Each learning more as we go, this very process leads to co-operation, and is more of a effect rather than the cause.

From the begging we had to get along in order to survive with our weak physical bodies (go pick a fight with any simian other than man, even a small one, tell me how that turns out)

So we had to get along, that the origin of Civilization right there.

How ever, we did develop tribalism which still shows up as racism, which needs to still be overcome.

It is my hope Technology will be the gate way to overcoming Tribalism, already we see it in places like ATS, where multi-ethnic and culture backgrounds come together to freely share.

Soon the internet will not just be apart of society but apart of us with implants and various other advancements in biomed.

Hopefully Technology becomes the greatest peace maker in human history, allowing for a shared human experience and co-operation.

reply to post by XPLodER

When you put it that way then ya there is not that much of a difference between ants hives and human hives.

But cooperation is not really the be all and end all of things. It just something used by all living things to different degrees, a natural process, and like you said some have learned how to interpret the symbols/hormones for there advantage over the hive.

And for the rest I can only add one thing.
Cordyceps

Originally posted by Xoanon
reply to post by XPLodER

 

Great OP XPLodER,

I also believe that we are meant to cooperate but...

look at any tribe of humans, they always co-operate

At this point in our illustrious career as human beings may I suggest that we have the capacity to cooperate. But we definitely do not always utilize it.

You mentioned ants.

I can never forget the Hopi creation narrative and how we were taken in by the 'Ant People' when the third world was destroyed. The Ant People taught us everything they knew about how to cooperate to survive, the Hopi story is clear on this. And we were supposed to take that knowledge with us to the fourth world.

But we are #ing it up, aren't we?

Learning to use our powers of cooperation is something that requires practice. We have to get used to the new wetware; namely the pre-frontal cortex.

X.

edit on 2-7-2012 by Xoanon because:

the choice of path is present,
the ancient wisdom is spoken and translated by actions and intent,
and the human race unites in harmony,
the message of peace and the untiy that comes resonates into intent

we have one planet to be the care takers of
for the next generation of care takers, our children.

now more than ever the teaching of the old ways "in balance with nature"
are needed to be conceptuality spoken into current context,

presented to a new world finding its feet with a new sense of connectivity,
and interconnectivity,

a natural collective for co-operation is spontaneous, and in some cases massive,
i have just seen an idea for a global accord for the internet bill of rights

people are just now asking the question on mass,
what are the actions and knowledge required to be more in balance with nature?



the way to live on the land, together in co-operation




xploder

reply to post by Xoanon


Oh, I completely agree. If there is any stage in evolution swiftly approaching our species, I sincerely hope that it will develop our psychic abilities, so that we have a deeper understanding of each other, ourselves, and the planet. It's hard to destroy something when you can so easily see through its eyes.

And yes, telepathic connections would greatly boost our empathy meter. It's hard to argue with pure emotion, when you can feel exactly where everything is coming from.

reply to post by benrl

It is my hope Technology will be the gate way to overcoming Tribalism, already we see it in places like ATS, where multi-ethnic and culture backgrounds come together to freely share.

That's all nice and dandy but Tribalism is more and serves a greater function then you think. And when you add in the factor that no one can really function without a sort of tribe then you will see that your model for things will fall to pieces the first time you try to actually live by it to any length of degree, and will come crashing down when it is pressed and pressured.

And if anything the internet has shown us that to be true and that that tribalism in its many forms is a basic function of life and especially of society, its all basically just a Webb of different forms of tribalism's mashed into a greater whole. After all even here on ATS and everywhere online you find people vacuum and attract like a magnet to certain things and with certain people and hang in certain groups.

And what is all that but a form of tribalism. But the whole thing can be overcome, even gotten rid of completely. Which would only lead to other things, one being that everything will become a carbon copy nondescript impersonal gray matter of things. In fact I suppose with humans it would become a sort of bureaucratic gray goo system.

I always wondered if humans would evolve into something like a Vogon under the right circumstances.

freedom gets in the way... I want to spend my time working on inventing a car,,,,,, you think that is stupid and there are more important things for our tribe to do then waste time trying to create a car,,,,,,,, i spend 20 years on this barely scrapping by and starving,,,, and then i create it,,,,, now everyone in the tribe wants one,,,, so they give me lots of their valuable things for them,,,, now I am no longer starving,,,,, and my invention allows for other inventors to create new things.........

i agree with everything you say,,,, that is just the argument for the free market,, what is the cooperation model?
everything is government, owned by the people,,,, there is only one car company,, and everyone who wants to make a car goes to work with them,,,, the peoples taxes pay for this car company to innovate and make the most efficient and best cars,,,, everyone gets a car,,,, we have nessecities,,,,,, theres one supermarket that gets every kind of food the world can produce,,,,, which works in tandem with every farm that produces all the food for this government brand supermarket,,,,,, and since the taxpayers money,,, all people,,, are paying for the supermarket company and what not,,,, the supermarket is not looking for profit,,,, soo all food will be the cheapest..... this is in essence communism,,,,,,,,

what if einstein was forced to work in a patent office because thats what society needed of his physical and mental self,, if he didnt have the freedom to express his individuality and work on that "car" of an idea......

reply to post by AfterInfinity

I sincerely hope that it will develop our psychic abilities, so that we have a deeper understanding of each other, ourselves, and the planet. It's hard to destroy something when you can so easily see through its eyes.

And yes, telepathic connections would greatly boost our empathy meter.

Get this,

I actually believe that we are all of that right now and our powers will only increase.

But I also believe that we think that we are gaining so much from our lying, subterfuge and intentional obstinacy that we just can not let go of the lifestyle.



X.

Originally posted by benrl
It is the very nature of our intelligence, each one of us stands on a mountain of previous generations accomplishments.

Each learning more as we go, this very process leads to co-operation, and is more of a effect rather than the cause.

From the begging we had to get along in order to survive with our weak physical bodies (go pick a fight with any simian other than man, even a small one, tell me how that turns out)

So we had to get along, that the origin of Civilization right there.

How ever, we did develop tribalism which still shows up as racism, which needs to still be overcome.

It is my hope Technology will be the gate way to overcoming Tribalism, already we see it in places like ATS, where multi-ethnic and culture backgrounds come together to freely share.

Soon the internet will not just be apart of society but apart of us with implants and various other advancements in biomed.

Hopefully Technology becomes the greatest peace maker in human history, allowing for a shared human experience and co-operation.

edit on 2-7-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)

the internet is the great leveller, rich or poor can educate and succeed,
equal access to the largest co-operative in the world the net which is all of us

i think the interconectivity is as important to the conectivity.

a band can now produce an internet song and if its good they will make money,

it doesnt matter the colour of the skin of the music fan who bought the music,

it works because its good.

xploder

reply to post by ImaFungi

Hey I suppose there are some interesting things you can learn and see while working in a patent office, maybe that is the place he needed to be at to expand his mind a bit on a whole lot of different things.

And then there's the Family Guy version on how Einstein got his theory of relativity.

reply to post by galadofwarthethird


lol
i sure hope burocracy is not the basis for civilisation,
i like H guide

reply to post by benrl

How ever, we did develop tribalism which still shows up as racism, which needs to still be overcome.

It is my hope Technology will be the gate way to overcoming Tribalism, already we see it in places like ATS, where multi-ethnic and culture backgrounds come together to freely share.

Staying with the ant analogy, if you take a shovel full of dirt with one kind of ants in it and dump it onto a different type of ant hill, they will kill each other. Its pretty brutal to watch.

reply to post by frazzle

Staying with the ant analogy, if you take a shovel full of dirt with one kind of ants in it and dump it onto a different type of ant hill, they will kill each other. Its pretty brutal to watch.

and thats kinda my point, Hopefully technology will be the lever that finally pulls us above our vary basic animal nature.

In to a new age of enlightenment.

How many of us on here would still be ignorant to a great many things with out ATS and the Internet...

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by frazzle

 

Staying with the ant analogy, if you take a shovel full of dirt with one kind of ants in it and dump it onto a different type of ant hill, they will kill each other. Its pretty brutal to watch.

and thats kinda my point, Hopefully technology will be the lever that finally pulls us above our vary basic animal nature.

In to a new age of enlightenment.

How many of us on here would still be ignorant to a great many things with out ATS and the Internet...

edit on 2-7-2012 by benrl because: (no reason given)

I hate to go all negative on such a happily ever after story and it would be nice to believe it could end with hugs all around, but I'm afraid all the increasingly impersonal technology will result in our downfall. Machines don't bring enlighenment, they breed weakness. But that's just my very unenlightened opinion.

reply to post by frazzle


I never said that it would be hugging and hippy, just less violent.

I would imagine at some point the bypassing of baser instincts would occur.

I like the whole trans humanist thing as I am a sci-fi nut, but honestly, a more logical society would by no means be seen as good by many.

Lot of concepts look better with logic, I mean, why cure old people, that type of thing.

Or prove your value to society as a whole.

That type of logic would not be seen as a hug fest.

Originally posted by benrl
reply to post by frazzle

 

I never said that it would be hugging and hippy, just less violent.

I would imagine at some point the bypassing of baser instincts would occur.

I like the whole trans humanist thing as I am a sci-fi nut, but honestly, a more logical society would by no means be seen as good by many.

Lot of concepts look better with logic, I mean, why cure old people, that type of thing.

Or prove your value to society as a whole.

That type of logic would not be seen as a hug fest.

Okay, I see where you're going. But short of the technological wonders of genetic modifiers tampering with our DNA I just can't see people changing their spots.

Why cure old people? Why not try to learn something from them before you knock them off, they might have some wisdom to share that won't be found on a sci-fi film.

Most normal people are opposed to war, they're only desired by financiers of wars and population reduction specialists. They're the ones who get a kick out of throwing opposing groups of ants together in a pile to watch them fight to the death.

reply to post by frazzle


machines may breed weakness,,,,, but machines are strong,,,, sooo we will turn ourselves into indestructibly strong machines,,,, with our advanced technology,,,,