Are the Black Bloc allied with Occupy?

Although I haven't seen Breitbart's film, Occupy Unmasked yet, (and certainly hope to, eventually) the trailer seems to imply that it puts most of its' focus on a group of violent individuals who are apparently known as "the Black Bloc."

Kali74 has emphasised that these people are not affiliated with Occupy, but tend to be police agent provocateurs, and other similarly-motivated individuals, who show up at otherwise legitimate Occupy events, in an attempt to discredit the movement.

I think we need to investigate this point, in order to try to find out whether or not it is true. This is a vitally important question; given the nature of Breitbart's film, it may well be the most critical question for Occupy's entire credibility, going forward.

Occupy Wall Street’s ‘Solidarity Sunday’: What Are ‘Black Bloc’ Protesters?

This is one news report I found from January, which actually seems to offer a fairly balanced perspective on the issue. It makes two points on the issue; one for, and the other against, Occupy.

a] It includes a link to another story about how Canadian police apparently went undercover at a protest in Canada, and that there was some controversy over police acting as provocateurs, despite official denials.

b] The article links to the Occupy protest that it is being written in reference to; "Solidarity Sunday – Wear Black Fight Back."

The photo Occupy themselves have included on said page however, is also not entirely innocent, concerning the anarchist charge; and the statement written on the corrugated iron barricades perhaps isn't completely bipartisan or politically moderate, either.



So it seems that we have a definite problem, here. On the one hand, supporters of Occupy seem to claim that anyone who represents themselves as a violent anarchist or extreme Marxist is not part of the movement; and yet we have the above photo, which seems to tell a very different story. Given that this photo is also posted on OccupyWallSt.org, I can also only assume that this photo carries endorsement from at least some people in the movement, as well.

We've had spirited and consistent denials from Kali74 in particular, that Black Bloc anarchists are not representative of the Occupy movement, and also that Occupy are not extremist, radical Marxists in terms of its' membership; yet again, this photograph, and the statement about "wearing black and fighting back," does not support that conclusion.

I honestly have tried, and continue to do so, to keep an open mind about the idea that Occupy's membership are not exclusively or predominantly Communist, as many conservatives here (and Breitbart himself, of course) insist.

Yet at the same time, there is an old saying...that if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's generally safe to assume that it's a duck, and Occupy have at times been observed quacking fairly loudly, in a key vaguely reminiscent of this song.



There have also been times on the ground where feathers have been sighted with a suspiciously coal-coloured and/or vermillion tinge to them, as well.

I'm not saying that I'd draw entirely the same conclusion that the late Senator Joseph McCarthy would, here; but I hope Occupy's more unequivocal supporters will forgive me, for acknowledging that there is definitely room for the available evidence to be interpreted in a certain way.

All humour aside, however, I want to seriously emphasise something here.

I have nothing whatsoever against someone being Communist, if they want to be.

I am not Communist myself, but I also don't consider myself exclusively Right wing either. I genuinely believe that both sides of the political spectrum have valuable and legitimate perspectives, and can both make meaningful contributions. Leftist, ANOK, and the rest of the token Marxist crowd on here are people who I've often had extremely stimulating discussions with on this forum; I consider them good friends.

Yet at the same time, the one thing that I have repeatedly requested from Occupy, is that it come out of the closet, with regards to its' Communism. The proverbial hammer and sickle, if it is there at all, needs to cease existing purely behind closed doors. I understand that it is the mentally of some Communists that elements of a revolution must be conducted secretly; yet I consider that perspective to be fundamentally dishonest, and also to display a lack of faith in their own ideology, in terms of suggesting that it might be something which, if people knew about it openly, they would not actually want.

So I say again; come out of the closet, Occupy. Fly the red star and the hammer and sickle flags openly. You've already been using the clenched fist iconography for some time, and those of us who are paying attention already know what that represents.

If you want to be Communist, then be Communist. Don't be ashamed of who you are.

I never said that all Black Bloc are FBI or Police agent provocateurs. I think though that it's a safe bet that some are. How else can anyone explain uniformed officers watching people smash windows and doing nothing to stop it or not taking action to detain the individuals.

Anarchists participating in a black bloc that calls for destruction of property CANNOT be considered allied with Occupy for a very simple reason, they do not respect the consensus process. When Occupy decides on a direct action like a march or a rally they hold a direct action assembly where it is decided what actions will take place... is there going to be civil disobedience... perfect example, I was at an anti-austerity march last Saturday. It had been decided that toward the end of the march the group would split in two with one group willingly and knowingly breaking the law (nothing violent or destructive) and the other group to continue on the march, that had been decided in the assembly, it passed consensus of the attendees. Had a majority voted no to any civil disobedience, everyone would have stayed together the entire march.

Occupy does not advocate violence or destruction, it never comes up in assemblies to smash windows or vandalize, therefor any individuals deciding to do so can't be part of Occupy since they are completely disrespecting what we feel is the most vital thing to our movement, direct democracy (consensus).

'Blac Bloc" is a strategy NOT a group.

Black bloc is not a set group of individuals, its a tactic. One that does not necessarily have to be used violently. Are thrre violent occupiers? Yes, just like there are always going to be violent people. OWS is a diverse group of people poliyically, racially, spiritually etc

Originally posted by Kali74
Occupy does not advocate violence or destruction, it never comes up in assemblies to smash windows or vandalize, therefor any individuals deciding to do so can't be part of Occupy since they are completely disrespecting what we feel is the most vital thing to our movement, direct democracy (consensus).

This does make sense, Kali. Thank you. I could see certain individuals choosing to violate said consensus after the fact; but I think the important thing has to be whether or not those acts are endorsed.

reply to post by petrus4


The only endorsement Occupy can give is like I said, through consensus at an assembly. Let the cops deal with vandals, that's their job... I wonder why they don't. Maybe they just wait for someone to use their 1st Amendment Right before arresting them.

I have respect for black bloc in europe , but the ones I witnessed in occupy oakland ralleys,etc mad me very upset. Not only did they start most of the violence, they displayed traits of racism and gender bias. Once they got involved I pretty much stop physically supporting occupy oakland, this was before any of the violence and such started. Most of the black bloc here in oakland dont even have a connection to the bay area it seems so they sort of came in , tore # up and left

Don't mean to be a jerk but the information is out there for people to find, why is this so hard?

Black Bloc are not a group, its a tactic. It was formed in Germany in the 1980's and to say that they are police run or are filled with provacateurs is misleading.

In the Black Bloc, people are anonymous. They do this so that they cannot snitch on each other, they do not know who is with them during the times of direct action. Unfortunately, this also make it easy for police to dress up and join in.

I have met many anarchists and some who have participated in these actions and they are very very anti-police. The people that are smashing windows and burnings things are doing so because they really honestly believe that they are making change. I dont agree with it, you may not either, but they really do.

I always wondered who the guys are at the top are and how they receive their funding? I think these people are manipulating some of the young frustrated kids into burning and looting but that's just a guess.

BUT please dont believe the BS from Jones and others who constantly say anyone in a mask is a cop. Its not that im defending them or their actions but I believe in having the truth so you can figure out whats really going on and guys like Jones are either willfully ignorant on this issue or pushing some kind of agenda.

as for Occupy working with Black Bloc, its easy....

In the city I live in we had a large protest that went on for days and the main organizers simply approached the anarchist group and said we cant have any violence at this event BUT we respect your right to protest how you want. So they agreed that on the main day of protest, the Bloc would attend and they would respectfully not engage in violence as their were old people, children, etc there.

The next day the Bloc organized an event and let everyone know that they would be calling for a "direct action" which means most likely smashing some #. Anyone could attend but you knew what was happening and had to take responsibility for getting arrested, hurt, etc.

It went down and they did what they do, people got hurt and arrested. It didn't tarnish the rest of the protest as Black Bloc claimed responsibility and released a communique to the media (which they ignored of course) explaining their actions.

It can be done, people just need to realize that not everyone wants a peaceful revolution. There are lots of different voices with different agendas. Their might be a majority voice with Occupy but not ONE voice. To think this that is naive and Occupy people need to respect it, deal with it and figure out how it fits into what they are doing.

I dont think so, during the Oakland Occupy Marches - I noticed that the Protesters where trying to stop the Black Bloc - from painting Smash on buildings with pressurized sprayers - - - two things I noticed, the black bloc matched the specifications for Police Cadets (not a single over weight among them. secondly - they wrote Smash.... ???? why Smash ? nothing else just Smash ... Occupy = Smash .... I dont think so...

Now, I talked with a Kid who was clearly related to some Asian Gang doing laundry he has never had a job..... he was at least 18 - 21 somewhere in there - and he stated, that he looks every week for a job and cant find one -- and he said if the banks don't fix this crap - he has heard talk of stealing cars and driving them into banks. think about that a minute. a gang of thugs taking out banks for weeks at a time... dont you think Black Bloc would do something like that instead of Smash.... So, I dont know what to think anymore other than this stuff just doesnt add up to anything positive and Occupy and I dont share the same values - so I dont support them in their efforts.

reply to post by Kali74


Kali - Your thinking of the Bloc not being a part of Occupy is a bit troublesome for me. It may not be the part you want to be associated with but it is part of society, culture, etc just as much as anyone else there. To distant yourselves from it, I think is wrong. These people have genuine concerns and they may want to engage in fighting the system in a different way than you or I but nonetheless we are fighting the same battle. To disregard that is not helpful. I think OWS organizers need to understand how to work with them, like you mentioned in your comment, splitting into two marches, I think thats great. We dont need to understand why they do it or even be a part of it but if we dont have a unified front, the powers that be will exploit that and divide and conquer as they normally do. I dont have all the answers, thats just my 2 cents. Nothing but peace and respect!

reply to post by magnetik

Black bloc in the U.S. is definitely different.
I don't endorse black bloc behaviour, but I noticed that they seem much more organised and aggressive here.
I have not once seen black bloc in the U.S. marching in closed human chains, using firebombs or even stones. Seems like your version wreaks alot less havoc and they don't really hurt anyone either.

I really don't understand the amount of excitement about black bloc in the U.S. to be honest.

reply to post by petrus4


I don't think you understand what black bloc is.


No they are not allied with occupy. They can't be allied with anyone.
You will often see undercover cops using black bloc to incite rioting. This is just a very poor, and might I add ignorant - as in based in the ignorance of what black bloc is - attempt to smear occupy by alligning them with what you thought was a negative group/organization.

Do research. Try again.

reply to post by magnetik


That is because they were cops.
When you see black bloc in the U.S. there is a good chance they are cops.

Originally posted by Kali74
I never said that all Black Bloc are FBI or Police agent provocateurs.

Neither did I.

Some, yes. All, no.

As I've said before, I'm not completely on either side here, Kali; not unequivocally. Wrabbit mentioned a peaceful Occupy event that he had been to, and I know that others have been extremely positive, especially the initial one at Zucotti Park. Occupy genuinely have accomplished some very positive things, and I know that.

That is a big part of the reason why, as I've said, if at least some of them genuinely do have Communist inclinations, as I think they do, they should not be afraid of letting people know that. Aside from anything else, it might do the reputation of Communism as an ideology a large amount of good, if the general public knew that people who self-identified with it, were committed to engaging in positive, humanistic behaviour. The American (in particular) public know about Mao and Stalin; they don't know a lot about what it looks like when self-identifying Communists or Socialists actually try and behave in a virtuous manner.

As far as I'm concerned, China has proven that a (hybrid, at least) Communist country can be economically successful, albeit totalitarian and brutal in social and political terms. This doesn't mean that I want to see Marxism take over the planet, by any means; but it does mean that I think some on the Right should perhaps try to become somewhat less polarised in their own thinking.

I am also, however, committed to giving the conservatives a fair hearing as well; and to that end, I am eagerly awaiting Breitbart's film, if I can get hold of it myself.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by petrus4

 

No they are not allied with occupy. They can't be allied with anyone.
You will often see undercover cops using black bloc to incite rioting.

a] It's just as much a generalisation to say that the Black Bloc are always police, as it is to say that they always aren't.

b] Adopting the attitude that someone is automatically your ideological enemy, if they don't precisely agree with every element of your thinking, is juvenile, paranoid, and entirely non-productive.

I've seen the latter attitude being expressed far too often by more fervent Occupy supporters on this forum. The Right do it as well, of course; but I wish both sides would stop. I don't know how many times I have to keep saying it, that I don't completely agree or disagree with either, and contrary to what people might say, I don't think that makes me a traitor, a hypocrite, or a wimp. It simply means that I can see validity on both sides.

"You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists," sounded moronic and puerile when George W. Bush first said it. It doesn't sound any better with subsequent repetition.

reply to post by petrus4


Wait a minute..

You guys really still think that Occupy has anything to do with communism?
LOL I honestly cannot believe that so many people bought that hook line and sinker from the MSM. We aren't even living under the red scare anymore.

Listen to me guys.. there are really no inclinations of communism with the occupy movement. I have been to many of them it has nothing to do with communism. That was just propaganda started by Fox news to scare older people away. I suspect only old people are the ones that actually still have those kinds of thoughts. I am not saying that it's limited or there are simply undertones of communist ideals. I am saying that occupy has absolutely NOTHING to do with communism it is just b.s. to scare people away from it and give people a way to complain about it and denounce it. It is to fool people into division. Such an easy thing to do nowadays.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow


This is simply 100% not true. The "peaceful" members of your Occupy, ones who might be helping with food, or singing songs, are the same people that will wear a mask and smash some # during a direct action.

You don't know this cause you are not a part of it. Do some research, talk to some people, I can tell you from direct experience that you are 100% wrong.

b] Adopting the attitude that someone is automatically your ideological enemy, if they don't precisely agree with every element of your thinking, is juvenile, paranoid, and entirely non-productive.

I agree completely!!!!!

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by petrus4

 

Listen to me guys.. there are really no inclinations of communism with the occupy movement. I have been to many of them it has nothing to do with communism. That was just propaganda started by Fox news to scare older people away.

The photo from my OP is not propaganda from Fox News. It contains Communist symbolism and terminology, and it is on one of the pages of OccupyWallSt.org.

As a result, in forensic terms, it is the proverbial smoking gun. It is direct evidence that at least some within Occupy (and I believe, most of those who consider themselves the movement's leadership; and please don't insult both of our intelligence by quoting the "leaderless," crap) are, in fact, Communist; radically and passionately so.

That photo was simply one of the first times that I have seen such transparent evidence of Marxist influence within Occupy; but I'd already seen plenty of other indirect evidence. Marx's vocabulary is prominently visible in virtually everything Occupy write.

People who fervently support Occupy do not like it when I point out the degree of Marxist influence that is evident within the movement. I believe that part of the reason why they do not like it, is because it has been an element of Communist tactics for a very long time, that you do not, under any circumstances, prematurely allow the public to know that you are Communist; which presupposes said Communists' own implicit belief, that Communism is not something which the public at large genuinely want.

The other, more common reason, I think has to do with the fact that a lot of people involved in Occupy are themselves unaware of the fact, that politically and economically speaking, there is scarcely a single idea inside their heads that Karl Marx did not put there. Marx' influence on contemporary Western society, is pervasive to the point where it has become virtually invisible; which is exactly the way the consciously aware revolutionaries like it.

Given Communism's history, some Occupiers can therefore be understandably shocked when they are informed that, unbeknownst to them, they are in fact Communist.