Vacation Pics: Masonic Symbols on 13th century church

you guys do know there is more then 33 degrees right?

you're only told about 33 until you get there

Originally posted by WanderingThe3rd
you guys do know there is more then 33 degrees right?

you're only told about 33 until you get there

Yeah I have heard a few people exclaim that they believe there is 360 degrees total.
I don't know as a fact how their system actually works, but I do know what Mason's claim in their writings and they claim there are different Orders. Some Orders only consist of a few degrees, while others may have up to a few dozen. One group I saw, the Order of Ramses I think, had 360 degrees total. I do not know if it is a legitimate official branch of masonry or if it is a "rogue" house.


Now I don't know how the system works really, but I have some theories or ideas but nothing really concrete. Maybe the point is to add the degrees of each Order together after you go through them, and this totals up to a specific amount. My guess would be 360 makes sense. I am sure that people will say yes it is or no it isn't but seriously I don't have a clue and I wouldn't be trusting anyone exactly either. To me it's just a general mystery of life which is nearly impossible to unravel from the outside.

Here look at this link :
Monomyth Wiki
And look at the diagram there of the Heroes Journey

This diagram in my opinion, could represent what the goal was of not only fraternal Orders like Masonry, but also countless other similar organizations throughout history. We are talking thousands of denominations of different methodology, practice, belief, or agenda.

But really there is no way to actually know.
Masons tell me all the time, most of them really don't know the ultimate history and full understanding of Masonry itself, and this is true for anything. Who in government knows the full truth and complete history of their government? Who in corporations knows such about their corporation? Who in religion knows the truth about their own religion?

The answer is simple. No one knows absolutely for sure their own history. Being the boss or having some degree doesn't grant you supernatural powers of omniscience, nor does it grant you discretion or discernment.

One of the main pillars of modern science is the practice of comparing and contrasting separate things. In etymology we compare and contrast root words throughout various languages. In biology we compare and contrast various organisms and their features. In astronomy we compare and contrast celestial phenomena to gain understanding. Anthropology, archaeology, etc.

This is a very powerful tool for gaining insight into the workings of things around us. It must be employed as a general tool when confronting obscure or arcane subjects or anomalies where further information must be generated.

Comparative Analysis (wiki) must not be overlooked. But we must exercise caution and restraint because comparisons and contrasts can result is misleading over or under estimations of the degree of which something may exist.

When we compare things it is easy to overlook or forget things which make the comparisons fail. It is important for people to conjure other comparisons that show a different picture, and by combining all of the different perspectives and issues together, in the long run, we can begin to create the bigger picture. All too often the reality lies somewhere inbetween the extreme points of view, in a grey area.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Here is a picture of a sheath of barley in symbolism.

I believe that is a sheaf of wheat in the Original Post which would be a Masonic symbol from the Fellowcraft Degree and represents 'plenty'.

The Hourglass is a symbol from the Master Mason Degree and represents 'human life'.

The other symbolism does not appear in any ritual that I am familiar with as depicted on the tomb. It would seem that this was added much later as the Eye of Providence at the top did not come into usage until the 1500-1600's which was long after the church was constructed.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


You think it could have been slightly altered over time? That's possible and not unheard of.

It predates what we would call modern masonry though I'm pretty sure.
What origins do you think it may be of? I keep thinking the Teutons but there were many different Orders within the Church so there's no telling without an expert to show us more clues.

I only assume Teutons due to time frame and location matching somewhat well, and it was a very large organization in it's time.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I believe that is a sheaf of wheat in the Original Post which would be a Masonic symbol from the Fellowcraft Degree and represents 'plenty'.

The Hourglass is a symbol from the Master Mason Degree and represents 'human life'.

Thanks also for the clarifications, I was just making guesstimates.

I was looking into the sheaf of wheat and this is what I found most relevant, surprisingly enough.

Virgo constellation

And down on the mythology section:

In ancient Greek mythology, two prominent figures associated with the constellation are Erigone and Astraea. Astraea was the Greek goddess of innocence and the administration of law. Sickened by the wars of men, she was the last of the celestial beings to leave the earth for the heavens and is often depicted with the wings that allowed her angelic ascension to the stars. It is said that Zeus placed her amongst the stars as the Virgo constellation along with her scales of justice to depict the constellation Libra.

Astraea wiki

Erigone was the name by which the first century astrologer Marcus Manilius referred to the constellation. As the sign of the harvest, Virgo held strong connections with the time that grapes were gathered for the production of wine and Erigone represents an aspect of this association. She was the daughter of Icarius, who received the secret of wine making from the Wine God, Dionysus, and was murdered by peasants who believed they had been poisoned by his wine. Erigone was led to discover his body by their faithful dog and hung herself in grief. The gods were moved to pity over the tragedy and transported the family to everlasting glory in the heavens: Icarius became Boötes, Erigone became Virgo, and the dog Maera, the constellation Canis Minor.

Erigone

A little further very interesting tidbit:

Erigone hanged herself over her father's grave. Dionysus was angry and punished Athens with making all of the city's maidens commit suicide in the same way.

All the maidens had to commit suicide? That can't be true...can it?
I wouldn't be too surprised to tell you the truth...it's sort of over the top though.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Actually I think the depicted tombstone was built really late, see my post where I deciphered part of the inscription where it said the person died in 1807.

That's why I want to get a hold of the priest to do an interview about the original builders. Check out the other skull and bones symbol inside the church, and then I got more pics of another tombstone but you can not recognize anything on it anymore the face is completely gone.

Also on the website of the church it only says the church was built in the 13th century, but not who built it.

Originally posted by H1ght3chHippie
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

Actually I think the depicted tombstone was built really late, see my post where I deciphered part of the inscription where it said the person died in 1807.

That's why I want to get a hold of the priest to do an interview about the original builders. Check out the other skull and bones symbol inside the church, and then I got more pics of another tombstone but you can not recognize anything on it anymore the face is completely gone.

Also on the website of the church it only says the church was built in the 13th century, but not who built it.

Ohh nice thanks for that. I totally overlooked it.

I was going by the date the church itself was built as the guidepost, I apologize for the mistake.
The 13th Century the Teutons makes sense but for the 1800s? Not really.
Big difference.

reply to post by H1ght3chHippie


Cool pics ... Not Masonic however. Even the pyramid technically is not Masonic, though I've seen it used sometimes in modern times, at that point in time especially it was not a Masonic symbol (well, technically Freemasonry did not even exist at this time lol)

All Cathedrals built in this time frame were "dark" and full of symbolism, often times "Pagan" symbolism. But then you have to consider that there are some extremely dark Catholic symbols. Catholicism has far more "dark" symbols and representations than Masonry.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Oh and any idea what the oldest known reference to the "Eye of Providence" itself, in it's modern rendition "Eye in triangle with rays coming out" is?

I realize in general the "All seeing eye" has been depicted in many cultures worldwide far back into antiquity, but this particular depiction does seem more recent.

Eye of Providence wiki

I don't really know how old it is, but I would be interested to see what the oldest possible one we could find would be. We may not find anything before the 1400s though I concede, as the similar eye depictions prior to that tend to be stylized differently.

reply to post by muzzleflash


I've seen it in Catholic art work/architecture countless times, far older than Freemasonry. As your link suggest, the Eye in Freemasonry (a representation of the Great Architect) is never in a triangle.. I would say it's not the same symbol at all considering the Catholic version represents the Trinity (hence in a triangle). But then again it all seems to be the same symbolic history as the Eye of Horus (which if you're like me you believe much of Christianity parallels Egyptian mythology.) I would assume myself that the Masonic version of this eye is derived from the Egyptian source, as I would assume the Catholic version is as well. Then there is the "Third Eye" and "Inner Eye" which is represented in a similar way, which I would believe may predate even the Egyptian use.

Regardless.. it's a very old symbol that means different things to different people. In reality the root history of a symbol is pointless to begin with, as are "official" meanings and interpretations. You can apply whatever belief you want to a symbol and no one can say you're wrong; you're only wrong when you project an assumed belief onto someone else.

reply to post by muzzleflash

there are scottish rite written far earlier then the traditianal english rites. this is a fact.
baphomet is a symbol of opposites,day night,sun moon,man woman,etc.....

reply to post by reficul


Dusted off some of my old symbolism books and found some pictures...

The symbols appear to be Roman in origin.

In 1874, a Roman mosaic work was found which dated back to A.D. 79, which has similar symbols to the one in the picture (skull, hourglass etc.) The mosaic, along with a sketch showing the symbol below the letters LM in one of the pictures was, for many years, displayed in the Hall of the Sarcophagus, Room 5, in the the Museum of the Capitol at Rome. I haven't yet found an explanation on its meaning, though.

Source: "Symbols and Legends of Freemasonry, J Finlay Finlayson, 1910" (Book)
(P.S. I have a hard copy of the book. I can't seem to find the relevant pages in electronic format.)

Thanks for the participation in this discussion, Gentlemen.

I will make sure to return in July with more pictures and possibly a lot additional information from the priest himself. Especially the name of the person the tombstone in question is dedicated to.

I've also done some research on the surrounding villages and it is a treasure bag full of old churches and buildings dating back as far as 1000 A.D.

reply to post by H1ght3chHippie


Hiho, if you need any help in planing your trip, let me know. In fact I am from a small village 5 miles away from Kenzingen.You really should visit Tennenbach for example.
And yes it´s true, germans do have the best beer, even if Kenzingen is a wine-region....

Originally posted by muzzleflash
Oh and any idea what the oldest known reference to the "Eye of Providence" itself, in it's modern rendition "Eye in triangle with rays coming out" is?

1525?. Though some people say that was added later, perhaps as late as 1640.

Originally posted by Scaledown
I really hate quoting dan brown when it is to do with the masons ... but...... damn it!!!

the table with the hour glass, skull and candle is described in his book the lost symbol. it's an alter where a mason goes to contemplate ones existence in the world.


apparently .....

The skull and bones and hourglass setting is certainly Masonic. It is what one would see within an antechamber, or Chamber of Reflection. Of course, not all jurisdictions do this. Now, to say that it is Masonic, doesn't meant that Freemasons "owned" this, or that they put it there. This sort of setting was also used by other "mystery schools" and is much older than any modern form of Freemasonry.

Having said all that, I suspect someone from the church can explain who put it there ans why. Again, it's no big deal, it's an openly displayed scene. Any bit of research can find out about a "chamber of reflection", including this one on the wall. If it is dated to the 1800's then it probably is Masonic.

I am not surprised to see it, and while it is interesting (to me) it's no big deal.

By the way, very nice pictures. Thank you for sharing them.

reply to post by GoatWizard


Personally, I am convinced as well that the symbols are a clear sign of masonic involvement, even though one poster pointed out this might not be the case.

After all the information gathered so far I tend to think that a more or less high ranking member of a lodge is buried there. Alas the person is not mentioned anywhere and the inscriptions are too withered to make out more details.

I also do not think we got a huge mystery of sorts on our hands here but the opportunity to study 800 year old buildings and dig a bit in history is time well spent in my books.

Glad you liked the pics too, I too got some from two castles nearby, built around 1100 A.D. maybe I'll make a small pic thread for these as well. The scenery of small villages in the gentle slopes is breathtaking, even tough I didn't find any masonic symbols there hehe.

Man I love stuff like this...awesome photos. I've had to stay out of the thread because you guys know so much! I should say that these displays were very important possibly in many different ways. Do you think it could have been a way for fellow masons (I know they weren't masons but w/e their name was) to recognize a safe lodge? Or maybe just different "blessings" or something like in the cornerstone ceremony.

The existence of the illuminated pyramid in that is outrageously amazing. So I know this is a dumb question but have you guys seen the man who would be king? They travel to that eastern country and become false gods of men and find the old statue of the penis-man with a 3rd eye and the old golden pyramid thing that was supposed to be Alexander the Great's. The story suggests that the religion is ancient as well as its symbolism.

Nicholas Roerich left his post as FDR's unofficial occult adivsor for many years to travel in the east and came back with many artifacts. The templars had some initiation and discovery of knowledge and artifacts during their eastern journey.

Anyways kinda rambling...just trying to piece together the world's hidden history. A secret society in the dark ages using the pyramid and other masonic symbolism. So is that town in the middle of what was once Bavarian Illuminati territory? I wonder how many names they have gone by.

If I saw that on TV today me and all my friends would be going "did you see that"...I wonder what people thought about it in the 13th century!

Originally posted by H1ght3chHippie
reply to post by GoatWizard

 

Personally, I am convinced as well that the symbols are a clear sign of masonic involvement, even though one poster pointed out this might not be the case.

Remember that Freemasonry adopted symbols from others. I'd say the Masons adopted those sybols later, rather than the other way around.

reply to post by Saurus


Muzzleflash pointed out the Egyptian heritage of the symbolism. Makes sense if you ask me.

Who knows how far back parts of society go who considered themselves "in the know".