"Your only role here is to breath and not to resist. Everything else is Predetermined."

Originally posted by timerty

Originally posted by buddha
No free will?
Then how do you resist???
why live at all?

Because the soul has nothing better to do.

According to what I understand you are saying...why would it need to 'DO' anything?...and from where would this action come?...IF, all is predetermined?

A

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by akushla99

 

If I say, no matter what you do, you WILL do X or X WILL happen to you, how is that free-will?

I agree with timerty.

edit on 2-5-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

You CANNOT say this!...therefore, the question is a dumb one!

What you seem to be talking about are probabilities & possibilities...and at the point at which you make a choice (given the parameters under which your human body operates and your emotional state at the time, and the circumstances you are surrounded by)...the gamut of probabilities and possibilities COLLAPSES in the reality in which you ensconce yourself in...the period before you have made the decision is already history, and appears more like a timeline (from point to point)...or...decision/choice to decision/choice...if, when confronted by similar circumstances that were to your liking in the past, the same decisions/choices may perhaps be made (but this is called a habitual programmed response)...it is NOT the same as saying you will do X and Y will happen...
I believe you are confusing a few separate notions and proving one through the auspices of the others, but not describing the mechanisms of any other influence, circumstance or preference to act...

A

The body produces large amounts of '___' shortly before death.

'___' is a very powerful hallucinogen.

Originally posted by Xaphan
OP, I mean no personal insult or anything. But I find this whole idea to be absolutely absurd.

I'll state one thing for the record first: I'm not religious; nor am I atheist. I believe in a non-specific cosmic entity, and that there is a purpose to everyone's life. But seriously, what would be the point of living if we aren't making our own choices? What the hell would we be learning if we were just basically living in a movie? That would be pointless. I would compare that to buying a video game, then inviting somebody over and saying "You play it while I watch, I don't want to bother doing it myself."

I agree with this.

I debated a bit in another thread about it but gave up...

But here is an explanation of why the "Universal Mind" would give us freewill that I think is as good of an explanation as any.

At the beginning, there was only the One mind. It desired companionship so it created "freethinking" entities. Now IT could have made "fate or destiny" for them, but then they would be pre-written stories...slaves or servants. This is not what IT wanted for companionship....(would you?)

So, IT creates the entities, sends them into a material world to live and experience. At the end of their cycle, they will return to the presence of the Universal Mind and share their experiences in conversation...thus becoming friend and companion...not blind puppets acting out a pre-written play or story.

Would you rather have the company of someone who genuinely desires your companionship because they choose to or because they are forced to out of fate or fear of lakes of fire and punishment? I think I'd personally rather have the company of someone who enjoys my presence and "chooses" to be there.

Just a different view of things I stumbled across...makes more sense to me than destiny, fate and "no freewill"...

But I'm agnostic and I think everyone is completely wrong about what the "Universal Mind" will actually be like. I don't think it is within our capacity to comprehend it...and I think any human being that tries to describe it or speak on it's behalf is and idiot and a fool...

But that's just my opinion...

reply to post by thegagefather

I've heard something similar. If you think about it, the fact that the brain might produce hallucinogens before death also benefits evolution. If some of the people who're close to dying somehow survive then they'll have fantastic stories that will captivate the living and give them further reassurance that there's life after death. If people at the edge of oblivion remembered nothing then it would discourage the belief in an afterlife. I think the belief in an afterlife helps people to cope with this life. It gives them a feeling that life has a larger purpose and scope. And so it goes...

I think that there're other things that, in total, benefit evolution more than the hallucinogens that occur on the brink of death. There's a reason that a belief in the afterlife is so common. It's because people want to believe it. Emotions compel them to since a sense of continuity is so important to the mind. Nobody likes to think that a loved one who died will never come back and will be forgotten at some point. They want to think that the loved one is somehow still alive or that their life still has significance. Really, whatever can help them on this quest (to believe in an afterlife) will benefit evolution. People who're creative and/or slightly crazy (think: hallucinations) and create ideas of the afterlife might be more likely to inspire and capture the imagination of people. I think a good number of saints or holymen were this way. Even normal everyday religious people can be this way.

If you think about it, evolution HAD to have a countermove in response to death. This universe, for all its beauty, enforces conservation of energy and entropy on all things. This makes it virtually certain that all things come to an end. So evolution, when it produced intelligence, had to absorb these constraints. This is why we have this belief in an afterlife and it's why people pursue a sense of larger purpose in life so that they won't be crippled by their fears and worries about death. I'm certain that during the course of evolution many lifeforms have perished as a result of trial and error in this regard. Evolution did not have immediate foolproof answers to fears or anxieties relating to death. In fact, even today it probably fails in some cases. Evolution is never perfect. It can't be.

The absolute best we can do in this life is to attain a sense of larger purpose or continuity. If you fail to find that in your life then death will be a more frightening prospect. Basically, all I'm saying here is that, if you follow the rules that evolution has put in the rulebook then your chances of success will be higher. If you throw the book out and swim upstream then life will be harder.

Evolution is just a book. This book is in our DNA and it's in the storehouse of knowledge that humans possess. It's in our minds, our libraries, our tools, our stories, and so on. It's a set of rules. Follow the rules and your odds of success climb higher. It's kind of like a game. You need to know the rules.

Originally posted by thegagefather
The body produces large amounts of '___' shortly before death.

'___' is a very powerful hallucinogen.

So you are implying that consciousness always needs a physical body to exist. However, the physical body matter is just a form of energy.

Consciousness is connected to energy such as the body in order to be conscious of it.

There are other forms of energies that are invisible to the human eye. So consciousness can also use those invisible forms of energy to exist.

So if there is a different form of invisible energy in another plane of invisible non-human plane, that means consciousness has also a good chance of existing in that realm of invisible energy. What it can see over there is not what we can see from here.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Have been otherwise occupied for a while but back again to add a few more thoughts. Thank you for your interesting replies.

There is free will, but its not yours, but actually it is.

Yes I can understand this concept, if indeed I am simply a creation that needs to follow God's plan, and by doing so with no resistance, become part of the godhead and then have the right to the all seeing experience of God. But still I ask, for what reason is all this necessary?

So while all the explanations you offer are options worth considering, and take me to interesting places in my thinking, I can only agree generally with the end result (call it enlightenment). The concept of predetermination still confounds me.

God sees something you don't

This is true for anyone about (any)someone else. It is just a matter of where the person is and what his vantage point is. Yes, and by being part of God (whatever God is perceived to be), in theory we too must be able to see what it is all about.

God sees something you don't and God wants you to see it too

But if God created us and we have just been created for the purpose of seeing what God sees - simply by going with the flow of our predetermined life-story - then I am even more confounded. Why create humans with minds for the sole purpose of having them see creation without being able to influence it according to their free will?

Just a comment in passing, and before it gets said again; we get told often that we cannot understand the mind and purposes of God, but as science is able to explain more about more, understanding replaces belief and the only question is, where will the final frontier between faith and knowledge come to rest?

But back to the predetermined life-story. It keeps coming back to questions about my purpose in this magnificent (perhaps infinite) grand charade. If I have a purpose and my life story is predefined, why would I (me and/or this soul) need to go though life to see what it reveals about creation? If it has the soul purpose of allowing me, through acceptance, to see through the eye's of God, that still does not explain why I am here with a thinking mind. And why would this God need to play these games in the first place? - I mean, if we are a single shared consciousness.

You talk of perfect harmony. I see perfect harmony in everything, as everything is just obeying the laws of physics, irrespective of what the morals and values are of any action or reaction, predetermined or made by free will. In striving for perfect harmony the only part that needs changing is our acceptance that what we might regard as negative or positive is just part of the harmony of Nature. No rewards, no punishments, because these so-called positives and negatives are just consequences, viewed through out tinted filters.

Now we can see through the eyes of God and see what is really going on here.

This statement implies that there is a grand plan and brings me back to the general concept of us, souls, divinity, God (whatever one's view is of God), etc. We, here in this thread, have been exploring free will very much within the limited ambit of human existence. I want to go beyond that. I wonder if a volcano has free will. Or a subatomic particle. Or a star. Or a galaxy....

Perhaps it is rather presumptuous of us to assume we humans have such great importance, or even any real importance at all in this huge picture. But I guess we do, just as each quark that contributed to the Hiroshima bomb, or participated in the probable supernova of Regis in Orion, has significance. Quark or human, in a Universal sense, close to equally small. It is just a huge jigsaw puzzle that is indeed too large and too complex for our minds to comprehend. It would be great to see what is really going on.

So as living beings, we have to wonder at our relevance in this big pictures but however small a role we have to play, the picture would be incomplete without each of us. But as a living being, have I not been given a role to play in this? I believe so. But did I need to have biological life and the powers of thinking and judgement etc to perform this role - if it was all already predetermined? I do not know why.

We may only operate with a limited set of options but we can still make a choice. Is the choice we seem to have to resist the flow of our predetermined life story not an act of free will? Or is it an allowable exception? And what other exceptions are there then?

So, free will or not? As far as I am concerned, still to many questions and the jury is still out on this.

Originally posted by thegagefather
The body produces large amounts of '___' shortly before death.

'___' is a very powerful hallucinogen.

Some have called it a gateway to another dimension. Like the chemical that opens a channel between the physical and the non-physical. People witness "impossible geometry".

reply to post by arpgme


Free will and destinty... They both exist. That is the way of the Tao.

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Have been otherwise occupied for a while but back again to add a few more thoughts. Thank you for your interesting replies.

There is free will, but its not yours, but actually it is.

Yes I can understand this concept, if indeed I am simply a creation that needs to follow God's plan, and by doing so with no resistance, become part of the godhead and then have the right to the all seeing experience of God. But still I ask, for what reason is all this necessary?

I'm not 100% sure why we exist, but my best guess is that for one, we don't have a choice, and for two, we do it for fun.

God sees something you don't

This is true for anyone about (any)someone else. It is just a matter of where the person is and what his vantage point is. Yes, and by being part of God (whatever God is perceived to be), in theory we too must be able to see what it is all about.

We can see what is all about. Look around. This is what its all about. But to see what its all about and to understand what its all about are two totally different things.

God sees something you don't and God wants you to see it too

But if God created us and we have just been created for the purpose of seeing what God sees - simply by going with the flow of our predetermined life-story - then I am even more confounded. Why create humans with minds for the sole purpose of having them see creation without being able to influence it according to their free will?

We have free will. It is ours and God's. We are God. Creator and creation as one.

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

Just a comment in passing, and before it gets said again; we get told often that we cannot understand the mind and purposes of God, but as science is able to explain more about more, understanding replaces belief and the only question is, where will the final frontier between faith and knowledge come to rest?

Probably the very end.

But back to the predetermined life-story. It keeps coming back to questions about my purpose in this magnificent (perhaps infinite) grand charade. If I have a purpose and my life story is predefined, why would I (me and/or this soul) need to go though life to see what it reveals about creation? If it has the soul purpose of allowing me, through acceptance, to see through the eye's of God, that still does not explain why I am here with a thinking mind. And why would this God need to play these games in the first place? - I mean, if we are a single shared consciousness.

The universe is observed through an infinite number of viewpoints giving the universe an infinite number of definitions of what it is. God is the one that is seeing through all eyes and God understands everything from every perspective of what is going on. We are learning how to become God. Why does God do it? Like I said, I don't think God has a choice.

So as living beings, we have to wonder at our relevance in this big pictures but however small a role we have to play, the picture would be incomplete without each of us. But as a living being, have I not been given a role to play in this? I believe so. But did I need to have biological life and the powers of thinking and judgement etc to perform this role - if it was all already predetermined? I do not know why.

We are just one of an infinite number of relative observers each painting a unique picture of what the universe is. That is our purpose and our relevance. We were desingned by one that understood how we would function in our designed forms. Our designer is the one consciousness that sees all that is seen and knows all that is known and chooses all that is chosen. All choices are done by you, but also done by that.

We have complete, total, all-encompassing free will.

When we created our individual selves, we greatly restricted our free will to human free will. We are now highly limited in what we can choose to do, but any choice that is available to a human, done by a human, is of the human's own choosing. However, since you were infinitely restricted of your free will by the creator, by becoming a human, it is the creator who ultimately chose your choices for you. Hoowweverr, since you are the creator, your free will hasn't been violated at all.

So I would say even though we have only human free will (which is hardly free at all), we still have complete free will because, on some level, we are the totality of the creator.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Thanks again for the responses. I think this is a true reflection of the spirit of ATS as I would like to get to know it. You have presented many ideas for me to explore and while they match some of my own thoughts and beliefs, the free will one still sticks somewhere as I try to massage it down my mental oesophagus. But rest assured, I will continue to consider all your words many times.

I'm not 100% sure why we exist, but my best guess is that for one, we don't have a choice, and for two, we do it for fun.

I like this concept. God having fun. I guess organised religions gets us into a frame of mind where life is a test and it seems difficult to move off this.

We can see what is all about. Look around. This is what its all about. But to see what its all about and to understand what its all about are two totally different things.

Indeed. In some of my training I say the advantage is it allows me to see all around me and the disadvantage is, it allows me to see all around me. Again, as I suggested, the human problem is not perceiving the things I do not like as being negative, but rather, just as part of the big picture. Even from great "negative" comes great "positive". For example, no great doctor ever emerged from treating healthy patients.

But I still have this one concern about all this revolving only around us humans. This means all the rest of the life of the Universe is just a backdrop.

reply to post by arpgme Free will and destinty... They both exist. That is the way of the Tao.

I do subscribe to the Way of the Tao, as may emerge from what I say. It is just one huge tapestry of interactions that are predictable if we can only understand the multitude of cycles of all things, their interactions, and the cascading effects of our influences on those cycles. We humans are just one small part of all that.

thanks for a great exchange

How would you even know what your "soul plan" is so that you would not resist it?

Being depressed or suicidal may well be what you're supposed to learn in the alleged "soul plan."

Since this "plan" isn't available for you to access at any point in life, it is impossible to know if you're resisting it.

I don't think such a plan exists. If there is an afterlife, this life is just about experiencing a harsher existence in general. Not something specific since there is no way to know any specifics.

The only things that are essentially written in stone in life is the average human lifespan and your genetically determined sex. You can even stretch those a bit if its possible for you.

Originally posted by KenArten
reply to post by smithjustinb

 

I'm not 100% sure why we exist, but my best guess is that for one, we don't have a choice, and for two, we do it for fun.

I like this concept. God having fun. I guess organised religions gets us into a frame of mind where life is a test and it seems difficult to move off this.

I think the test is to see if we can enjoy creation. Once you have proven to be able to express eternal, unconditional gratitude for your existence, I think you will have passed the test and be able to move on to something new, bigger, and better. It would likely happen as a direct result of the gratitude you express. After all, life is enjoyable when it is enjoyable, lol.

reply to post by smithjustinb


Seriously, I think we're learning how to tolerate this level of beingness. Once we master our toleration of it, then we can move on to something bigger, something more alive.

"Your only role here is to breath and not to resist. Everything else is Predetermined."

It's funny how she said this, because if anyone knows what the law of attraction is, it is said that EVERYTHING you want is not flowing to you because you are resisting it. So release resistance, it is also said that deep breathing causes your well-being to flow to you.

If anyone doesn't know who Esther and Jerry Hicks are, or Abraham Hicks is, they should look them up if they want to look deeper into what this lady was saying.

Life is all about the Law of Attraction, and releasing resistance, and allowing things to flow to you.

reply to post by revolvingthought


yea life, but who want to b alive anymore? u seem missing the action around now, life is evil ways for one eternal hell

so the latest brand, is existence constancy so reality to check being same always which is nt possible but out of freedom rights valorization, have to put out free the max to stay same, while u cant put out but what is superior

I have been wondering about free will a lot lately. One night I came up with something...

Everything in existence has an opposite (old/young, moist/dry etc.) If it had not, then that would be static.
This is what gives creation to transformation or change.
If everything was static, when there would be no free will but since everything in existence has an opposite, everything in existence is dynamic, which means that all things have (minimum) 2 states.

Our presence / observation / consciousness determines the outcome of those states... according to Quantum mechanics.

Do I make sense?

Whether free will exists or not, I know from my experience that I'm literally running on autopilot. It's a slightly creepy feeling.Each of my movements and thoughts, when I separate my mind from them and go into observation mode, occur outside of my conscious will. I'm just along for the ride, and my true self's role is to experience the effects that come from the actions and choices that my brain makes and my body carries out.