Originally posted by dh
Then produce the evidence FatherLukeDuke
You can't because it wasnt then as it is now
The skies are completely different
The presence of overwhelming sylph activity doesn't accord with a couple of years ago, the rippling of clouds through HAARP activity wasn't happening a few years ago
I just went up to the Menwith Hill Independance Day celebration, this Yorkshire-based electronic Satanist temple, the epitome of all blood-sucking evil
The over-charging of the starwars domination of space and earthwise PNAC-predicted dominationof the globe

[edit on 4-7-2005 by dh]

Dh- I am genuinely worried for for your mental health. You are not making any sense whatsover.

Originally posted by microcosm
off_the_street... and howard...

Time, and time again, both of you have literally ripped all the "chemtrailers" theories, and bits of proof, to shreds. I myself never believed in chemtrails, and if there ever was a little bit of doubt in my mind, as towards their existance; it sure isn't there now, after reading this thread.

Those that have been fighting for chemtrails have simply been grasping at straws this entire thread. Any type of argument they build up gets knocked right back down with the awesome power of logic, and fact. I love it, I love it, I love it.

Anyhow Kudo's to the both of you:

i guess you didn't see the patents that muzzleflash posted.

HEE HEE!

you might use, 'selective logic' next time your giving these two kudos.

As it's been pointed out before... patents prove nothing...

If you bothered to look you'ld find many many many patents that exist, that are not used... there are patents in existance that use "super heated plasma to toast bread"...

Just because an idea is patented does not mean it is in use, and/or exists... otherwise I'd be making my sandwhiches in style, using a plasma cutter...

Originally posted by microcosm
As it's been pointed out before... patents prove nothing...

If you bothered to look you'ld find many many many patents that exist, that are not used... there are patents in existance that use "super heated plasma to toast bread"...

Just because an idea is patented does not mean it is in use, and/or exists... otherwise I'd be making my sandwhiches in style, using a plasma cutter...

patents must be viable in order to get past the 'pending' stage.
i'm sure super heated plasma could toast bread.

the existance of the MANY patents which relate to weather control through aerial spraying programs should be blatantly ignored by you. that's 'good science' and 'logic'.
while the other team gets ridiculed for providing perfectly good evidence that there is a very real possibility that SOMETHING is going on, HR and OTS get big kudos for pointing out that there are jets in the sky, and supersaturation is the process of cloudforming.

HAHAHAHA! i LOVE IT!!!

microcosm, you've supersaturated me with your con trail.


[edit on 5-7-2005 by billybob]

HR and OTS get big kudos for pointing out that there are jets in the sky, and supersaturation is the process of cloudforming...

This is not the only reason they got kudos.

OTS got thanks from me for putting together a very well written, and informative thread that aims to finally lay this "chem trail" hoax to rest... and in my mind it does just that. Not only that but he is "in the know", due to his life experiances, and line of work.

HR also gets thanks for playing a large role in this thread; in the laying down of this "chemtrail" nonsense.

There are many others whom have participated in this thread such as FatherLukeDuke, as well as Defcon 5 (another person "in the know", due to his life experiances, and line of work.) I'm sure that there are many others that deserve thanks for their info, and help in debunking the hoax, but OTS, and HR stand the strongest in my mind.

Just about every argument "the other team" (as you put it) has been rebutted by HR, and OTS. Since the beggining of this topic they've stood firmly in their position, meanwhile you guys get knocked down, and come up with some new outlandish claim...

First people were saying... the "chemtrail", contrail phenomena is only present in the US. Afterwards it was shown that it takes place in Australia, The UK, Asia, as well as other places.

Then you guys brought up... There has to be chemtrails... when I look at the sky I look at one plane, and the contrail dissappears, then I look at another one in the same place 5 minutes later and it stays for 4 hours, and makes me dizzy, and my head explodes. Afterwards OTS, and HR show that the atmosphere is not constant, it's different in different areas, and elevations. You cannot tell altitude by simply looking straight up... chances are they're not in the same area.

Then we move on to Hah! well chemtrails were not present prior the 1990's! HR shows tons of images from the 50's of contrails being made. You guys then jump onto the next thing...

AHA! We have testimony from some guy who claims to be a flight technician! OTS shows that the document is years old, and has been debunked time, and time again in the past.

Hmm... everytime they spray I get sick out my mind, explain that!!! OTS, and HR inform you that spraying at such high altitudes would be highly ineffective, and chances are any spray being sprayed would be blown miles away.

Hmm... How do you explain why "chemtrails" get thin, and sheetlike!!? HR explains what cirrus clouds are, and how upper level winds effect contrails.

How do you explain the parrallel lines! HR explains that the wind is moving at a certain speed, and the plane is also moving at a certain speed.

Fast foward 2 days later, and 10 new claims (that get debunked by OTS, and HR); now were here...

AHA! How do you explain these patents... theres so many patents surely something is up!

OTS, and HR should get ATS votes for having to deal with you guys. No matter how many times you guys get knocked over, you guys keep on coming, and coming... theres a conspiracy out there, and you guys sure as hell are gonna find it... just not here though... Because chemtrails are bogus.

[edit on 7/5/05 by microcosm]

Originally posted by microcosm
HR and OTS get big kudos for pointing out that there are jets in the sky, and supersaturation is the process of cloudforming...

[edit on 7/5/05 by microcosm]

May you all stay happy in your faiths of materialist science, deductivism and benign government
I hope you live long and happy lives, and, who knows, your faith might carry you through changes that others are picking up from and perceiving within the energy stream
Personally, I would advocate the withdrawal from these boards of the chemtrail crowd. This would facilitate our antagonists having more time to concentrate on doubters and dissenters of the official stories elsewhere, such as on the 9/11 threads where they are also noticeably active

In time, perhaps, ATS will be seen as a major supporter and cheerleader of big brother global government, and a place where the remaining loyal citizens can come to post their appreciation of the Global Leaders' benificence in allowing them, as loyal surfs, to labour and to serve
Happy slavery folks, I'm out of chemtrail threads hereabouts


[edit on 5-7-2005 by dh]

microcosm, .....


HAHAHAHAHA! i could so sell you anything under the sun, ya big fish.
NOTHING, and i will repeat more loudly, NOTHING, has been debunked.
i would agree that there are some reactionary opinions in the chemtrail camp, but the truly studious will have given up on the idea that it causes any kind of immmediate ill health.
it is WEATHER MODIFICATION, okay?
the only thing that has happened with regard to debunking, is that the 'skeptics' keep yelling, "I/WE DEBUNKED IT!!!! YAY ME/US!!!".
you're just another sock puppet. you have added nothing to this thread.

thank you, come again!

it is WEATHER MODIFICATION, okay?

Care to prove that?

Oh well I suppose it's better for one to be a sock puppet than a... well... nm.

Originally posted by dh

Originally posted by microcosm
HR and OTS get big kudos for pointing out that there are jets in the sky, and supersaturation is the process of cloudforming...

[edit on 7/5/05 by microcosm]

May you all stay happy in your faiths of materialist science,

Tt's funny how that materialistic science is responsible for the compuer that you are sitting in front of right now.

billybob, if you want to believe in "chem-trails", you certainly may. And, dh, if you want to leave this site because no one agrees with your views and other people keep challenging them, you, of course, may do so, too.

The "chem-trail" fad, even among conspiracy-theorists, is pretty much over. Most conspiracy theorists, although they may tend to accept assertions or hypotheses without the same rigor used by scientists, are intelligent people. They realize that when the overwhelming preponderance of evidence points one way or the other, then that's probably what the facts of the matter are.

But I think you both need to understand that my friends and colleagues like Father Luke, Howard, APC, Microcosm, and others, really believe that our "job" here, as members of ATS, is to deny ignorance.

I challenge a lot of ideas I don't agree with, besides chemtrails. Sometimes people come up with arguments to change my mind, maybe I come up with arguments to change their minds. That's the way it's supposed to work, near as I can figure.

Some people believe things on faith; there is nothing wrong with that. Usually those beliefs are considered "religion" and the believers-on-faith (and I include myself among them) will not try to debate them, since we believe those things in our heart and cannot prove them one way or another. I would not challenge your religious beliefs, because how can I provide proof or evidence for something which does not even involve proof?

I think many people believe in "chem-trails" more as a religion than as anything rational. You reject any attempts at evidence or proof, because those things simply don't seem to fit into your "weltanschauung".

But as long as you claim belief based on evidence, people at ATS will challenge your beliefs based on your evidence (or lack thereof).

Originally posted by billybob
microcosm, .....
HAHAHAHAHA! i could so sell you anything under the sun, ya big fish.

????? I bet you had to wipe the spittle off your monitor after typing that.

NOTHING, and i will repeat more loudly, NOTHING, has been debunked.

There is nothing to debunk. Just some contrails that some paranoid people insist (with no evidence) are either noxious chemicals or part of some completely unheard of, mysterious, world wide weather modification program.

it is WEATHER MODIFICATION, okay?

OK.

1 Who is carrying out the weather modification program?
2 In what way are they modifying the weather?
3 What technology are they using?
4 Why does it leave persistant trails?
5 Why are they modifying it?
6 How come not one single professional meteorologist or environmental scientist on the entire planet has noticed this massive weather modification program?
7 How do you know about it?

billybob - I dare you or any other believer to answer those questions clearly point by point.

Nice summary BTW microcosm.

6 How come not one single professional meteorologist or environmental scientist on the entire planet has noticed this massive weather modification program?

I'm a second year METOC (Meteorology, and Oceanography) student at SUNY Maritime college. I just e-mailed my professor the same exact question, when I get a response I'll post the reply. He's never heard of chemtrails in his life, I wanna see what his reaction is.

(A response from the professor may take some time though, He's currently under way, for the summer sea term. From the captains log I understand that they're having problems with their Satellite link. They say they got it back on line, but I think it's down again. Hopefully we'll get a response soon.)

[Edit]In addition I also asked him:

1 Who is carrying out the weather modification program?
2 In what way are they modifying the weather?
3 What technology are they using?
5 Why are they modifying it?

[edit on 7/6/05 by microcosm]

it's weather modification to reduce global warming.
don't you guys listen?
the idea is to reflect some of the sun's, energy back into space.
that's the main one, however, man's need to have the powers of a god, 'will' force him to use his knowledge of atmospherics as a weapon, and to modify his enviroment to his whims.
this is why the military wants to 'own the weather' by 2020.
this is why millions of dollars(at LEAST, or hundreds of millions, or BILLIONS) in equipment(already posted and linked, no rehash, sorry), patents(already posted and linked, no rehash, sorry), program designs(already posted and linked, no rehash, sorry), testing equipment(thank you, howard), global warming/contrail studies(thank you, howard) have been spent on the feasibilty of atmospheric modification. HELLO!? MCFLY???

the best 'how' i've heard, is a higher concentration of particulates in the exhaust, or perhaps sprayed particulates (it's a new project, and i'm sure they improve the process constantly), or perhaps a fibrous material (microfibres) are added to the atmosphere. these particulates pretty much stay up there for a long time, and help cloud formation.

you know, lads.
even if it's NOT a spraying program(i'm not a hardcore chemtrail believer, i'm a hardcore POSSIBILITY and PROBABILITY of chemtrails believer), i personally am very concerned about the possibility that we are polluting the hell out of earth. if every time a jet goes up, it leaves a trail of cloudforming nuclei behind it, then we WILL have more and more cloud cover, and it will affect the weather, whether it is a consious spraying program or not.
as scientists, does this not concern you?

p.s. sorry microcosm for being harsh. i appreciate you taking this to your professor. that's a definite added value to the thread.

Originally posted by billybob
it's weather modification to reduce global warming.
.

Is it hell - billybob I could fall out with you - being succoured by those freemason fancies - don't give us this

Its about extermination of large parts of the human species, the remainder being a slave population, providing a provision, cutting the lawn and so on for the Masters

Originally posted by billybob
even if it's NOT a spraying program(i'm not a hardcore chemtrail believer, i'm a hardcore POSSIBILITY and PROBABILITY of chemtrails believer), i personally am very concerned about the possibility that we are polluting the hell out of earth. if every time a jet goes up, it leaves a trail of cloudforming nuclei behind it, then we WILL have more and more cloud cover, and it will affect the weather, whether it is a consious spraying program or not.
as scientists, does this not concern you?

I dont think anyone is denying the possibility, however the probability is miniscule. You are dead on correct tho that condensation trails alone can/may already be altering weather patterns. This is a legitimate concern among all those in the field, and noone is denying this either.

And I think dh just asked you to marry him...

Originally posted by apc

And I think dh just asked you to marry him...

well, dh is right...
'they' ARE trying to exterminate most of us.
they=cfr
whether or not 'they' are actually intending exterminating with spraying programs, is a matter of speculation, no doubt. the weather modification could be a cover for something more nefarious. there's always a bigger fish, as they say.
'they' are using many programs to make us unhealthy. aids is a designer virus. the guy WHO discovered it, is the guy who created it. it's pandora's box, though. i think we've all seen enough end of the world movies to know that these are very real threats.
sars, mad cow, ....all weapons of the nwo against the useless eaters.

i have surmised before on these threads, that the residue they're surmisedly spraying, could be used in tandom with haarp for mind control, you would spray as reflective sheild over a target area. when i listen to some people talk about bush and crew, i GOTTA wonder.

if dh is a beautiful woman, i will consider dating.

i will discuss the freemasonry with you and the masons some more, dh. don't worry, be happy.

Well billybob you just backpeddled your way into nothingness again.

Besides, dont you know mind control has been very real for a very, very long time now?
It is far from something new. In many ways, it isn't even nefarious. Every time you see a advertisement... that's mind control. Every time you hear a speech, that's mind control. Basically, every time you indulge in any form of media presentation, you are being subject to a type of mind control in one form or another.
If someone convinces you to do something you normally would not do, yup that's mind control. Remember my little game with our beloved Code 3? Mind control.
If you fall in love with some super hot model on a billboard, mind control. Mind control is everywhere.
It is not in the sky.
It is right in front of you, constantly. The fact that you question the government with such a great degree... you guessed it, mind control.
The only matter truely at hand is how much do you let yourself be controlled? How much do you doubt your own doubts? Do you let yourself fall victim, again, to the tactics of those who seek to own your very soul? Or do you take control of your own life and start figuring out reality on your own.
Stop paying attention to the endless amounts of lies and utter crap the Internet has brought to your face. They are merely the latest incantation of the mind control you so greatly wish to deny.

well, apc thank you for your update on me. i THOUGHT i was feeling rather weightless on my reverse cycle.

the internet has many official, big budget, legally liable sites on line. smacking it down with the wave of a word? i don't think so.
and, anyways, many of these conspiracies were around before the net.
ever heard of jordan maxwell? he's being writing books about the illuminati and the all-pervasiveness of their symbols since the SIXTIES. he's got a website, if you're interested. you can probably order some of his 'books' from there.

what you are calling mind control is not really the same as directly beaming thoughts into someone's mind. you might find the work of marshall mcluhan interesting, if you have 'noticed' how integrated our personal minds are, with the collective unconscious, that is, media. (once again, this is in 'books')

how about, 'angels don't play this h.a.a.r.p.? nonsense?

a simple subsonic tone will make people nervous. that is a basic example of the type of mind control i'm talking about.
did you know that the term 'brainwashing' has had it's meaning flipped 180 degrees? remember pavlov? he had several programmed lab animals, a result of his conditioning experiments. there was a flood, and all the animals were caught in it. when pavlov had rounded the animals up again, he found that their conditioning had been erased. and that is what 'brainwashing' really is. you wash conditioning and programming away.

i think 911 may have acted like a great brainwasher for many of us.

out here in nothingness, everything floats.

what you are calling mind control is not really the same as directly beaming thoughts into someone's mind.

Thats just it... there is no need to. People are easy enough to control through events and dis/information.

And Pavlov showed that trauma can have a profound effect on conditioned response to stimulus. The structure is still present, however a new much more powerful set of interactions have been placed over it. Nothing has been 'washed' away. The conditioned responses can be very rapidly regained through simple triggering.

i think 911 may have acted like a great brainwasher for many of us.

In my opinion, you are dead on right. By allowing ourselves to suffer such a traumatic event, we gave ourselves the ability to consciously pursue oil we had no claim to. We have known for more than half a century that we would have no choice but to fight over oil. But how could we do it? We couldn't just out of the blue invade one of the oil-holding countries... no that would be bad. Instead, we picked someone (maybe even programmed him, I dont know Im not CIA) who fit the profile, trained him, and gave him everything he needed to grow and develop into someone that would eventually strike back at us. We let it happen. We needed to get the oil. We got the ball rolling with Desert Storm, but we couldn't finish it then and still be politically sound while wrapping up some other issues. We had to let ourselves be attacked in order to give us grounds to strike. Are we just in our ignorance? Well, technically, yes. Is this a bad thing? Not sure yet.
Point being, you're right 9-11 was permitted to take place as a practice of mind control on the American people and the rest of the world. You can thank Operation Paperclip for the tactic.

There is absolutely no sense in spraying something into the air so that some research project can beam thoughts into all our minds. What about 'them?' Will 'they' just be wearing special helmets so they too are not suddenly craving Big Macs and copies of Martha Stewart's latest book? It is far easier and much more proven to warp and shape people's thoughts by letting them think for themselves. Nothing can convince anyone of anything better than their own words, so why bother trying to nuke their brains?