What if? A thought inspired by Mo Mowlam and Ted Bundy

This is probably of very narrow interest to most, but I found it quite intriguing when I read it earlier today...

Mowlam was a lecturer in the Political Science Department at the University of Wisconsin–Milwaukee in 1977 and at Florida State University in Tallahassee from 1977 to 1979. During her time in Tallahassee, her apartment was broken into by someone who she suspected was Ted Bundy, a serial killer and rapist who murdered thirty-five young women and attacked several others.[1]

en.wikipedia.org...

Now I am sure that everyone is aware of who Ted Bundy is, but for those that do not know, a little about Mo Mowlam...

Mowlam's time as Northern Ireland Secretary saw the signing of the historic Good Friday Peace Agreement in 1998. Her personal charisma, reputation for plain speaking and her fight against a brain tumour led her to be perceived by many as one of the most popular "New Labour" politicians in the UK. When Tony Blair mentioned her in his speech at the 1998 Labour Party Conference, she received a standing ovation.

It would be reasonable to argue that without Mowlam the Good Friday agreement may not have run as smoothly as it did, which wasn't all that smooth admittedly, and that there was no other member of the then government that could have so successfully bridged the gap between the two sides and facilitated to the dialogue that took place. So had Mowlam fallen prey to Bundy can we too assume that peace would not have been achieved in Northern Ireland? Possibly not, though, it is possible that I am stretching the imagination a little too far.

But to extend the remit, what if, Nelson Mandela had not been imprisoned, would he have become the man he is today? Or would the world be a different place had Martin Luther King not be shot?

In short, how important is the individual?

hi op

mo is a sexy godess
i love her
it was me that stalked her
mmm her haircut drives me crazy..and her cooking...well imagine
lol op
she smells bad when she opens her mouth
and i have always tried to tell her
shave your pits your in england now...

reply to post by davesmart



ok op
shes not important in the grand scheme
neither is you nor i
shes another chamberlin
weak

I often wonder about the 'what if's ' - what if I missed the bus, or took an early bus - would I have avoided or met someone?

Interesting theory.

Fate is a tricky subject.

I had no idea Mo Mowlam had a close call with Ted Bundy? OMG!!
She's a legend.

I'm reading a book about Bundy right now. The Riverman. Still waiting for the part where he helps the cops catch the Green River Killer.

There's a lot of what ifs in this book too. What if the cops had paid attention to Bundy's girlfriend when she first reported his behaviour to the police? They had his name on their list, it was near the top, but they were far too busy and he wasn't caught till months and many deaths later. Who might those lovely girls have become?

What if the press stayed out of the investigations of the Green River Killer and didn't take photos of police stake-outs near his dumping ground? He started dumping bodies farther and farther away after the pics were printed.

Originally posted by wigit
I had no idea Mo Mowlam had a close call with Ted Bundy? OMG!!
She's a legend.

I'm reading a book about Bundy right now. The Riverman. Still waiting for the part where he helps the cops catch the Green River Killer.

There's a lot of what ifs in this book too. What if the cops had paid attention to Bundy's girlfriend when she first reported his behaviour to the police? They had his name on their list, it was near the top, but they were far too busy and he wasn't caught till months and many deaths later. Who might those lovely girls have become?

What if the press stayed out of the investigations of the Green River Killer and didn't take photos of police stake-outs near his dumping ground? He started dumping bodies farther and farther away after the pics were printed.

Great book. If you get the chance check out Conversations with a Serial Killer by Stephen Michaud...it is highly insightful if Bundy is of interest to you.

Originally posted by mr-lizard
Fate is a tricky subject.

I don't really believe in fate, I have a certain belief that we are to some extent, if not wholly, architects of our own destiny, if destiny is even the right word. Pre-destination of any form has never particularly sat well with me. But I do think that we are the sum of all our parts, which is why perhaps it is more interesting to me, whether someone like Mandela would have turned out differently, which I am sure he would have, if he hadn't have been confined for 26 odd years. But in the same breath, we can argue that not everyone would have had the mettle to have even come out of that experience a sane man.

Much pondering of unponderables.

But at times, it passes the time.

reply to post by davesmart


I should imagine that she would smell bad, given what must be, by now, a rather advanced state of decomposition. Or are you like Bundy and prefer them in that state?

reply to post by Biliverdin


Thanks . I'll look out for it.

It is interesting to ponder the vagaries of history. Brings to mind the "But for a nail" concept. I think we can drive ourselves nuts trying to utilize hindsight, it is always 20/20 and real life is foggy and not clear at all. We are stumbling around most of the time doing the best we can.

It's a real wow Mo Mowlam came so close to death at that time and by the hands of Ted Bundy I expect knowing something like that would make you wonder, why not you.

Incredible Nelson Mandela emerged from his situation at all, then on top of that not to be bitter and angry, speaks to great strength and character.

For myself, when I am delayed etc, I will usually think it is probably for the best and I am avoiding something that might have happened. It is called rationalizing With a side order of magical thinking

Wow, what an interesting thread. As a myopic, self-centered Yank, I'd never heard of Mo Mowlam. But I can guarantee you if I had, I would never have supposed a connection to Ted Bundy, of all people ... especially when she's so tied to a specific geography, as is he.

It doesn't seem like her role was so incredibly profound that events would not have run the same course, even if they might have been slower or different. But it is interesting to ponder nevertheless.

I think it's always interesting to consider how events could have unfolded differently with minor changes. Unfortunately, we can't access any other courses of events other than the actual one. Like what if Lincoln would have been assassinated earlier ... would it have changed the outcome of the Civil War? Would there have been a Civil War? What if JFK had not been assassinated? Or if Reagan had?

Or, perhaps the reality is that there's more to the contributions of historically insignificant people than historically noteworthy people, but as far as I know, we'll never know. Unless you believe in time travel malarkey, what could have been will always be inaccessible except for in speculative fiction and the like.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
reply to post by davesmart

 

I should imagine that she would smell bad, given what must be, by now, a rather advanced state of decomposition. Or are you like Bundy and prefer them in that state?

im not fussed
dead or alive...
only kidding folks
a heart beat is enough

There can be no question that while the inertia of the collective drives most of human history, events can pivot on one individual. However, the power of the one derives mostly from being in a position to influence the beliefs and behavior of the many. It was formally given to very few to be the fulcrum point, but thanks to the universal soap box we call the internet, this may no longer be the case.

We have never had such a homogeneous network in all of our history. Even the smallest social groups are massive, and ever more tightly interconnected. It has facilitated self-directed aggregation and cooperation in a unprecedented way. It's no longer the rare one determining the course for the many. It's the wild variable out of a thousand, popping up in the stream for a moment, changing the direction of all the other swimmers. Next minute: new variable, responsive fish. Next minute: and so on and so forth.

And when I say "wild", I mean that this variable may more often than not have no status, useful skills, or sound contributions to make; and yet they will become, ever so briefly, an activating node in the extended network.

I can't tell you how loathe I am to say this, but Andy Warhol was right: everyone really is getting their 15 min. of influence. For better or for worse.

One of my favorite books was a "what if". Fatherland by Robert Harris. Basically a detective novel set in a world where Germany won the 2nd World War.

Throughout the novel, Harris gradually explains the fictional historical developments that allowed Germany to prevail in World War II. Although not specifically stated, the earliest point of divergence is that Reinhard Heydrich survives the assassination attempt in May 1942 - which in reality killed him - and becomes head of the SS. The Nazi offensives on the Eastern Front ultimately pushed back the Soviet forces, while the D-Day invasion by the Allies presumably failed.
King George VI and Winston Churchill go to Canada in exile. Edward VIII regains the British throne at the helm of a pro-German puppet government, with Wallis Simpson as his queen, however the British Empire still controls its territories in Africa and Asia. Germany allows this to spread its influence around the world. After being forced east, the remaining Soviet forces (still under Stalin) begin a protracted guerrilla war.

en.wikipedia.org...(novel)

reply to post by Biliverdin


Somewhat, but I think some things like a raging river that is dammed. In time it will just accumulate and sooner or latter no matter who the individual is it only has one place to go, and that place is that eventually it will burst through, for you see something eventually has to give and it matters not who, were, and how it will happen only that it happens. And when it happens if the whole calls for it, an individual will be found.

The rest is just random chance, the right person, in the right place, at the right time. Or you can do as the gods do and flip a coin and throw some dice to decide the fate of the universes. Or better yet do as the grays and others do and just throw a dart at a map and whatever it hits at is the ones you will abduct.

The individual is only as important as the moment in the sun is important to them all, seek your priorities and get them straight and in order, because if you build it they will come. Even a word that your building it and they will come. Basically outside its span of influence and self propelled paths, paradigms and proxies it does not have any influence or even exist.

Only in the body of its amass does the individual cell matter to the sum of all the bodies parts, outside of it however it is of no consequence what so ever. And so I would ask who is Mo Mowlam? But you get the picture I think.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


I think Philip K Dick pipped that idea in The Man in the High Castle. Not saying Harris wouldn't have explored it very well, but I doubt he could have done it better.

Originally posted by Biliverdin
But to extend the remit, what if, Nelson Mandela had not been imprisoned, would he have become the man he is today? Or would the world be a different place had Martin Luther King not be shot?

In short, how important is the individual?

edit on 17-3-2012 by Biliverdin because: (no reason given)

Very important in my opinion. One way to put it is that one individual can have a more profound and positive effect on their own life than if they are a part of a crowd mentality.

One person can start the ball rolling on any type of change more effectively then a group of people can in other words. Now, whether that change itself concerns a group of people or one person doesn't really matter I think.

Someone said a long time ago something to the effect that one person is smart while 100 are stupid. Humans may be social animals by nature, but when you get a group of them together they seem to "dumb down" for some reason. Possibly because everyone has their own take on an issue and it's hard for a group of people to agree on one aspect well enough to actually get things done.

Going off on a bit of a tangent here, but Aliester Crowley defined majik as "The Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will, including both "mundane" acts of will as well as ritual magic.It is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature".

In other words, majik can be something as simple as swaying someone's point of view to match your own through will power and words. But, the most important part is that you can't sway them if it isn't natural for them to do so in the first place and if they don't want to go there. Everyone is capable of change, it's natural, but the other person also has to have the it for it to happen. So in this instance, you have two people performing majik in that they are instigating a natural change in themselves by willing it to happen. The will is the first step. From there words and/or actions have to take place in order for the change to fully occur. And again, this isn't something that a crowd of people will ever be capable of doing in my opinion. Only individuals.

That said, outside influences, not so much people in particular but just circumstances in general, can have an effect on what individuals can or cannot do. For instance, If Martin Luther King Jr. were disabled and in a wheelchair, he probably would've been on the ground level giving his speech as the hotel he was in wasn't handicapped accessible. It was the 60's and those kinds of concessions weren't made law yet. That being the case he would've had a lot of people in front and around him, which he didn't have on the balcony, thereby not giving the shooter a clear shot, therefore sparing his life. The man willed change to happen, and it did, but one properly placed bullet put an end to that. Had it not, he would've been able to affect even more change because that's what he did. That's the kind of man he was. One who instigated change. But even that kind of power can't stop a bullet.

That's a good question you brought up OP.....What if? I think we've all wondered that about something at some point in our lives. I don't think of it too much anymore because I'm at the point now where I realize that the broken road I was on most of my life is now being fixed by my actions which have been influenced by everything that happened in my past. There are too many variables at this point to ask "What if". I just accept the fact that things were the way they were and they've led up to where things are now.

That mindset, I've found, have put the right people, one in particular, in the right place at the right time for me. I think she knows that at this point and I hope she knows that there's no turning back for me. If anything, she represents karma in action. You get what you give and even though the person herself is what I would like to know better, it's the fact that someone like[/] her showed up at the time she did, in the place she did, that tells me that karma works in ways you don't expect. And when it does, it can change you profoundly. It gives you a push in the right direction when you need it the most. Your mind may have been made up a long time ago that a particular type of change needed to occur, but sometimes it takes the right kind of person to give you that push. And there are going to be times, like now, when that kind of person pushing you in the right direction doesn't even know they're doing it. It's nothing personal really at that point, it's something bigger than that. The gods taking care of business I suppose.

It's hard to put into words, but it's not so much the person themselves that change you, it's what they end up representing by being what they are, and where they are at the time that changes you.

The whole situation would've made Aliester Crowley VERY proud.